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Osama Bin Laden Is Dead

Funny how Justice & the rule of law can become so fluid? Does anybody know what International/World laws are? How are they codified? How can they be enforced?
Seems to me that a group of basic international laws should be defined now in a more concrete way than before & made clear to all nations?
 
The handwringing is part and parcel of the central problem with the war on terror.

In the name of justice and the rule of law, in the name of upholding our freedom, we have at various points over the past ten years violated the law, restricted fundamental freedoms, committed war crimes and from all appearances engaged in summary and extrajudicial execution of a criminal suspect.

By characterising this as a clash of ideals, we lock ourselves into abiding by them, if we wish to maintain that "we" are "better" than "them"

[...]

I can't countenance that this would have gone down any other way than it did. Bin Laden was never going to see a courtroom. That doesn't mean it isn't legitimate to question

[...]

I'm disturbed by the possibility that he was executed in this manner.

I expect terrorists to behave like terrorists. That's what makes them terrorists. But I also expect and demand that our governments and their agencies abide by the standards they promote as correct or are held to account for their failure to do so.
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That's fair enough. I'm not sure I have expressed myself as well as I might have done. I've been extremely critical of many Western and in particular US actions in the "War on Terror" in the past: but I feel differently about this particular case. I think that the death of Bin Laden has the potential to close this chapter. That in itself is a positive step. My "handwringing" comment was a product of exasperation at a certain mindset which appears unable to see anything positive in any action by the West but will go out of its way to find excuses for deeply unpleasant individuals and movements elsewhere.

What I do find interesting is the contrast between the adverse comments to Bin Laden's slaying on this and other message boards on the one hand, and the positive, even elated reaction from people you speak to in person. This seems to be the case across the political spectrum.

Funny how Justice & the rule of law can become so fluid? Does anybody know what International/World laws are? How are they codified? How can they be enforced?
Seems to me that a group of basic international laws should be defined now in a more concrete way than before & made clear to all nations?
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The problem with international law is enforcement. You can have all the laws you like but without international police it will never be applied consistently.
 
Does anybody know what International/World laws are? How are they codified? How can they be enforced?
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If he was a prisoner of war at the time, that would be classed as a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions.

If there's a question as to whether the person is an unlawful combatant then it seems to be the case that:

If there is any doubt about whether a detained alleged combatant is a "lawful combatant" then the combatant must be held as a prisoner of war until his or her status has been determined by "a competent tribunal".[12] If that tribunal rules that a combatant is an "unlawful combatant" then the person's status changes to that of a civilian which may give them some rights under the Fourth Geneva Convention
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and

It is likely that if he is found to be an "unlawful combatant" by "a competent tribunal" under GCIII Article 5, and if he is a protected person under GCIV, that the Party to the conflict will invoke GCIV Article 5. In which case, the "unlawful combatant" does not have the "rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State." he does, however, retain the right "to be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention."
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As far as I can see, there is no provision there to execute someone without trial for logistical reasons.

I guess it's not like anyone's going to be able to enforce it in this case.
 
If he was a prisoner of war at the time, that would be classed as a Grave Breach of the Geneva Conventions.
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I can't see he could possibly have had PoW status unless he was part of an identifiable militia, was wearing a uniform etc.
 
Which still leaves it as a breach, regardless of what his status was, just not a grave one.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13290274

President Barack Obama has said publishing photos of the dead Osama Bin Laden threatens US national security.

"I think that, given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk," Mr Obama said.

The al-Qaeda leader was killed by US special forces in northern Pakistan on Monday. His body was buried at sea.

On Thursday, Mr Obama is to visit the site of the 11 September 2011 attacks on New York, one of many Bin Laden claimed to have masterminded.

Mr Obama said: "It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence, as a propaganda tool. That's not who we are."

The US administration has been monitoring world reaction - amid conspiracy theories about the al-Qaeda leader following conflicting accounts given by US officials.

"There are going to be some folks who deny it. The fact of the matter is, you won't see Bin Laden walking on this Earth again," Mr Obama said.
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So, we have the proof, but you can't see it. :?

Understandable, but I don't think anyone wants to see full on face blown off pics. Surely though before he was lowered respectfully/thrown like a rag doll into the sea they would have tidied him up a bit and got some kind of official shot to quash speculation. Even just a body shaped shape in a cloth being lowered into the sea.

As it is 'We got him, but there are no pics so you just have to trust us' is almost comical for a country that thrives on a conspiracy.

I suspect they probably did get him, but still. If he really was who they said he was then he either reveals himself in a video or AQ come out with proof he actually died some time ago. The fact that the US are willing to risk that happening makes me think it is not a lie.

Unless... you go down the route that he was a stooge all along, he has served his purpose and has either been rubbed out OR has had a nice bit of facial surgery and is retired away somewhere safe in the knowledge that his character has been killed off.

Well, at least it gives us something to talk about and gives those conspiracy industry another 50 years of work... :roll:
 
Osama Bin Tokin? Cannabis Found Growing Near Hideout

By Steve Elliott ~alapoet~ in Global, Growing
Wednesday, May 4, 2011, at 2:20 pm

Cannabis was reportedly found growing along three sides of the bin Laden compound.

?What were described as "high strength" cannabis plants were found "just yards" from the mansion of slain al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, who was killed by U.S. commandos inside Pakistan on Sunday.

The marijuana was growing beside other crops, including cabbages and potatoes, in a garden just outside the 9/11 mastermind's secret compound at Abbottabad, Pakistan, reports Philip Caulfield at the New York Daily News.

Reporters noticed the pungent weed growing in the deserted lots on the compound's perimeter. Cannabis was planted on three sides of the compound, CNN reported Tuesday.

"Hundreds" of marijuana plants were said to have flourished on the border of the compound, about 80 kilometers from Islamabad, where the terror chief had reportedly holed up for more than six years.

The London Daily Mail speculated that the marijuana was being grown to ease the kidney problems bin Laden has suffered in recent years.

Interestingly, local residents -- who claimed they had no idea bin Laden was living inside the compound -- say they saw two young men who called themselves Akbar and Rashid Khan make regular trips from the compound for groceries, including ample supplies of Coke and Pepsi, reports the International Business Times.
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http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/05/os ... hideou.php

so there's the link with hashishin - OBL as the "Old man of the Mountains"
 
Finally! Proof that dealing in drugs funds international terrorism!
 
I suspect bin Laden's death is an irrelevance compared to the information that may be retrieved from the house he was shacked up in.
 
McAvennie_ said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13290274

President Barack Obama has said publishing photos of the dead Osama Bin Laden threatens US national security.

"I think that, given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk," Mr Obama said.

The al-Qaeda leader was killed by US special forces in northern Pakistan on Monday. His body was buried at sea.

On Thursday, Mr Obama is to visit the site of the 11 September 2011 attacks on New York, one of many Bin Laden claimed to have masterminded.

Mr Obama said: "It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence, as a propaganda tool. That's not who we are."

The US administration has been monitoring world reaction - amid conspiracy theories about the al-Qaeda leader following conflicting accounts given by US officials.

"There are going to be some folks who deny it. The fact of the matter is, you won't see Bin Laden walking on this Earth again," Mr Obama said.
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So, we have the proof, but you can't see it. :?

Understandable, but I don't think anyone wants to see full on face blown off pics. Surely though before he was lowered respectfully/thrown like a rag doll into the sea they would have tidied him up a bit and got some kind of official shot to quash speculation. Even just a body shaped shape in a cloth being lowered into the sea.

As it is 'We got him, but there are no pics so you just have to trust us' is almost comical for a country that thrives on a conspiracy.
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If it's true that the operation was filmed, why don't they just release footage/stills of the moment they came face-to-face with OBL? That would go some way to silencing the doubters, surely?
 
WhistlingJack said:
McAvennie_ said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13290274

President Barack Obama has said publishing photos of the dead Osama Bin Laden threatens US national security.

"I think that, given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk," Mr Obama said.

The al-Qaeda leader was killed by US special forces in northern Pakistan on Monday. His body was buried at sea.

On Thursday, Mr Obama is to visit the site of the 11 September 2011 attacks on New York, one of many Bin Laden claimed to have masterminded.

Mr Obama said: "It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence, as a propaganda tool. That's not who we are."

The US administration has been monitoring world reaction - amid conspiracy theories about the al-Qaeda leader following conflicting accounts given by US officials.

"There are going to be some folks who deny it. The fact of the matter is, you won't see Bin Laden walking on this Earth again," Mr Obama said.
Click to expand...

So, we have the proof, but you can't see it. :?

Understandable, but I don't think anyone wants to see full on face blown off pics. Surely though before he was lowered respectfully/thrown like a rag doll into the sea they would have tidied him up a bit and got some kind of official shot to quash speculation. Even just a body shaped shape in a cloth being lowered into the sea.

As it is 'We got him, but there are no pics so you just have to trust us' is almost comical for a country that thrives on a conspiracy.
Click to expand...

If it's true that the operation was filmed, why don't they just release footage/stills of the moment they came face-to-face with OBL? That would go some way to silencing the doubters, surely?
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I can understand them not releasing a head shot, as aside from the obvious reasons, it would become similar to the Che Guevara silhouette. But as you say footage of them face to face before the kill shot would surely be evidence enough. We don't need to see the video or the killing, just a still of OBL in his compound.

That said, on a helmet cam, probably in bad light, is that going to prove anything? Grainy, half dark screenshot is never going to give a level of clarity necessary.

I feel there needs to be something, some proof, as at present it is based on a level of trust. I fully understand the decisions not to release anything, but at the same time it leaves an untidy end to the whole situation. Problem is nailing what exactly they have that could be released and would sate the doubters.

Footnotes.

I read the body was sealed in a weighted bag and dropped in the sea. So, in wild theory, it could be retrieved. Could, very difficultly, never will be, but could...

I find a slight irony that belief in this kill will only be achieved when hard proof is handed over. Yet this, and so many other global conflicts, are based on unwavering belief in mythical figures who have left limited physical proof of their own existence...
 
article-1383106-0BE03DE700000578-898_634x423.jpg


Aside from my suspicion that this pic was taken on Friday arvo during the Royal Wedding, I'd love to know what is pixellated out on Hillary's desk. Can't help but think it is a Playboy open on a centrefold... :lol:
 
Apparently the above, 'Situation Room' photo is not what appears. There was no live footage of the event, according to the CIA.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

Osama bin Laden dead: Blackout during raid on bin Laden compound

The head of the CIA admitted yesterday that there was no live video footage of the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound as further doubts emerged about the US version of events.

Daily Telegraph online. By Steven Swinford. 04 May 2011

Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, revealed there was a 25 minute blackout during which the live feed from cameras mounted on the helmets of the US special forces was cut off.

A photograph released by the White House appeared to show the President and his aides in the situation room watching the action as it unfolded. In fact they had little knowledge of what was happening in the compound.

...
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So, perhaps they really were watching the Royal Wedding, when that photo was taken.

:confused:
 
The guy who looks like Hugh Grant at the back looks Photoshopped in as well. He seems to be lit from a different source.

Maybe it is just the nature of modern news that with so many sources, so many Twitter feeds and so many agendas to meet, but this whole thing seems to be a massive clusterfuck of misinfomation.

This happened, and then this happened, but that didn't happen like this and actually this source now says that this was how it went down and... and...
 
The Telegraph seems to be a little unclear itself on the detail - it claims there was no live footage on the basis that there was a 20-25 minute period with no feed. According to most reports the firefight took 40 minutes. Hilary Clinton's on record as describing it as 38 of the most intense moments of her life - and she's been with Bill for over 40 years. That said she remembers as coming under fire getting off the plane in Bosnia...

Seems strange that the details have got so murky. Looks like there might be an attempt to swerve some tricky legal issues which could arise from all of this.

Still - it would explain why that guy in the middle of the shot looks like he's playing tetris on the computer.
 
ted_bloody_maul said:
The Telegraph seems to be a little unclear itself on the detail - it claims there was no live footage on the basis that there was a 20-25 minute period with no feed. According to most reports the firefight took 40 minutes. Hilary Clinton's on record as describing it as 38 of the most intense moments of her life - and she's been with Bill for over 40 years. That said she remembers as coming under fire getting off the plane in Bosnia...

Seems strange that the details have got so murky. Looks like there might be an attempt to swerve some tricky legal issues which could arise from all of this.

Still - it would explain why that guy in the middle of the shot looks like he's playing tetris on the computer.
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Quite so.

The head of the CIA admitted yesterday that there was no live video footage of the raid on Osama bin Laden's compound
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Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, revealed there was a 25 minute blackout during which the live feed from cameras mounted on the helmets of the US special forces was cut off.
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The first statement is initially ambiguous but ,when read in conjuction with the second, its meaning seems clear enough to me. I don't believe anyone ever claimed that "Situation Room" photo shows them watching bin Laden being shot, they are watching part of the raid in progress, either before or after the blackout.

And that guy in the middle looks like he's playing Tetris on his chest as well as on the computer.
 
McAvennie_ said:
The guy who looks like Hugh Grant at the back looks Photoshopped in as well. He seems to be lit from a different source.
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That was my initial reaction as well. It looks almost comical, peeking over someones shoulder.

I think the pixelate image in front of Hilary is an aerial shot of the compound...or a pair of tits.
 
I can't listen to Alex Jones for long.
He has a voice like rough glasspaper. He looks normal, but has a redneck voice. I wonder if he puts it on, just a bit.
 
I wonder what sort of reaction there would have been to all this story-changing and information bungles if it was Bush in the Oval Office rather than Obama.

And the 'We got him, but there is nothing to see... just trust us' angle...
simpsons_shiftyEyesDog.gif
 
I can't listen to Alex Jones for long.
He has a voice like rough glasspaper. He looks normal, but has a redneck voice. I wonder if he puts it on, just a bit.
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If it wasn't for all........... the pauses his show ............. would only be.................about a third as long ..........as it is.
 
Yeah I know what you mean about his voice, but this is WELL worth taking time to listen to. I believe Pieczenik.
 
But he doesn't offer any proof, unfortunately. It seems that both the mainstream and the conspiracists are currently suffering from that lack (or apparent lack).
 
Alex Jones is about as trustworthy as the Governments he accuses of cover-ups and lying. Any time anyone throws back an argument at him, as to why a particular theory doesn't hold water, he changes the subject. Then he comes back to the original argument later in the conversation, as if no-one has ever been able to put a hole in it. Utter fraud out for the publicity.

Having said that, this Osama thing is ridiculous. The US Government really aren't helping themselves out. It almost looks as if they've done this on purpose, to make people believe it's a conspiracy, to cover up something else, something much worse and more worthy of being hidden.

Or, more likely, there's been a few screw-ups along the way, and they're just trying to save face.

I initially thought the reason Osama had been hidden away, buried at sea, was because the Seals who had caught him, tore him up with bullets and anything else at hand, as revenge for 9/11, possibly even tortured him. Then when it came out that Obama et al had watched the whole thing, that seemed unlikely.

But now they're saying it wasn't watched live at all? If that's true, I'd have to go back to my original thoughts. Osama was so badly hated by Americans, even Americans trained to keep their cool, that when faced with him, and caught up in the frenzy, they destroyed him in very inhumane ways.

You can't really release images to the press that shows Osama laying flayed like a victim in Hellraiser, eyes burned out, teeth pulled from his gums, genitalia skewered like a pin-cushion, etc.
 
Jerry_B said:
But he doesn't offer any proof, unfortunately. It seems that both the mainstream and the conspiracists are currently suffering from that lack (or apparent lack).
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A conspiracy theorist without proof? Really? Usually they're full of the stuff, this is surely a one in a million case. :p
 
Rigsby said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0pM5FoYbs

Dr. Steve Pieczenik says Bin Laden died 10 years ago

Pieczenik says he will go before congress under oath to testify what he knows about 9/11 and illegal wars that followed.
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If this is the case, why didn't he already go before Congress about what he knows? Why does the fake death of Osama suddenly urge him into action?

The events he's talking about started taking place 10 years ago, what's he been doing in that time?

I'd have more respect for the man if he went to Congress and did his bit, instead of appearing on conspiracy shows with inane threats which he'll never follow through on. It's publicity. Let me guess, does he have a book out? A DVD?
 
Al Qaeda seem pretty sure he;s dead. Or maybe they're also in on the conspiracy? Who knows?

Al-Qaeda 'confirms Osama Bin Laden dead'

The statement appeared on jihadist web forums

Al-Qaeda has confirmed the death of its leader Osama Bin Laden, according to a statement attributed to the group and posted on jihadist internet forums.

The statement said his blood would not be "wasted" and that al-Qaeda would continue attacking the US and allies.

It said Bin Laden's death would be a "curse" for the US and urged an uprising in Pakistan.

Bin Laden died on Monday when US commandos stormed his compound in the Pakistani town of Abbottabad.

The statement comes as several rallies are being held across Pakistan in protest at Monday's raid.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201
 
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