People Who Just Disappear (Go Missing)

[catseye]

Has anyone ever done a massive sonar search of the river?

I guess it's knowing WHERE to search. They'd pretty much have to do the entire length of the river downstream and it would probably be too expensive. Especially since the car might now be covered over with something which might conceal it.

But yes, I think they are in the river.

 

[SimonBurchell]

I suppose the oddest thing, if I am reading it right, is that there was a telephone call with the lady the day after they left the church, so presumably they made it home before they disappeared. Still, they most likely ended up in the river, just not on the way back home from the time they were last seen.

 

[ChrisBoardman]

Looks like they are 30 miles from the rivermouth so I would not expect the river to be deep enough to conceal a car. Especially when the level would be low in a very dry summer.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Looks like they are 30 miles from the rivermouth so I would not expect the river to be deep enough to conceal a car. Especially when the level would be low in a very dry summer.

Given the circumstances of the William Fennessy case (mentioned in post #1198) then, clearly such a thing really can happen in that area. The linked article suggests that Fennessy's car was found - 'embedded in thick silt close to the northern bank of the river approximately 350 metres upstream from the town bridge opposite the Fermoy Rowing Club'.

Seems to me that the 'thick silt' thing is going to be an important factor. If a car goes into the water and beds right down into a thick layer of into silt, then a drop in water levels later in the year is probably no guarantee that a crash site will become any more obvious.

 

[catseye]

I suppose the oddest thing, if I am reading it right, is that there was a telephone call with the lady the day after they left the church, so presumably they made it home before they disappeared. Still, they most likely ended up in the river, just not on the way back home from the time they were last seen.

I think people can be confused. If the phone call had been on a different day and the lady had just got confused about when she last spoke to them (which is very easy to do if you don't know you have to remember any particular phone call on any particular day) then they might not have done.

 

[Spookdaddy]

I think people can be confused. If the phone call had been on a different day and the lady had just got confused about when she last spoke to them (which is very easy to do if you don't know you have to remember any particular phone call on any particular day) then they might not have done.

But also, I suppose, it doesn't really matter. The last time the couple were actually seen by others does not necessarily correlate with the point at which they actually went missing. Depending on circumstances there could be quite a considerable length of time between the former and the latter - time enough, possibly, to make several phonecalls.

 

[catseye]

But also, I suppose, it doesn't really matter. The last time the couple were actually seen by others does not necessarily correlate with the point at which they actually went missing. Depending on circumstances there could be quite a considerable length of time between the former and the latter - time enough, possibly, to make several phonecalls.

Although if, as reported, the phone call was made the next day then that implies that the couple reached home and that something subsequently happened to both of them and their car. I can imagine something happening on the drive home from the funeral, with them both in the car together, but for them both to vanish with the car later is harder. Unless they were in the habit of going out driving together daily, I'd have expected one or other to have gone, not both.

 

[Sollywos]

Gardaí went to the home of the couple and found that it was secure and all personal items such as clothes, passports and money were still onsite.

So it seems they'd only gone out for a short spin? It would be helpful to know what exactly they had taken with them. they could have taken some money with them but when I first read the article I assumed it meant they had taken no money with them. Had they left purses or wallets behind? Were they known to regularly pop off somewhere local?

 

[ramonmercado]

So it seems they'd only gone out for a short spin? It would be helpful to know what exactly they had taken with them. they could have taken some money with them but when I first read the article I assumed it meant they had taken no money with them. Had they left purses or wallets behind? Were they known to regularly pop off somewhere local?

They likely had purse/wallet with them, if these had been found it would be noteworthy. There was nothing odd or reclusive (reported) about this couple therefore like most people it wouldn't be considered unusual for them to regularly pop off somewhere local or even further afield.

 

[catseye]

So it seems they'd only gone out for a short spin? It would be helpful to know what exactly they had taken with them. they could have taken some money with them but when I first read the article I assumed it meant they had taken no money with them. Had they left purses or wallets behind? Were they known to regularly pop off somewhere local?

I'd presume that they didn't need much to go to a funeral.

 

[Sollywos]

I'd presume that they didn't need much to go to a funeral.

True but I was going with the fact (if the relative had remembered correctly that is) of their friend/relative phoning them at home after wards.

 

[catseye]

True but I was going with the fact (if the relative had remembered correctly that is) of their friend/relative phoning them at home after wards.

Yes, I think I'm just going with Occam's Razor on this one and thinking that the phone call was either mistaken timing or mistaken identity and they had an accident/health incident and drove into the river. It answers all the questions about where their car is, where they might be and why they left without taking anything other than immediately required items.

I could be wrong of course...!

 

[Spookdaddy]

Yes, I think I'm just going with Occam's Razor on this one and thinking that the phone call was either mistaken timing or mistaken identity and they had an accident/health incident and drove into the river. It answers all the questions about where their car is, where they might be and why they left without taking anything other than immediately required items.

I could be wrong of course...!

I think this highly likely too, but with the same proviso (and - unless I'm missing something obvious - I'm still not at all sure why the phone call is a factor). To hijack the old 'butler did it' cliche, I have to say that when an apparent mystery like this occurs near a body of water, then 'the water did it' is probably not a bad bet.

Seems that Fermoy is prone to really quite serious and regular flooding. Looking at online reports, the main flood season appears to be at the tail end of the year, but I don't suppose that precludes less severe flooding at other times of year - although I couldn't find a record of anything in April/May 1991.

Here's an image of Fermoy showing what I make out to be the approximate location - at least as reported in the previously linked article - of the car and body in regard to the earlier missing persons case that was - prior to the discovery of the vehicle and body - being linked by some to the later Dwyer incident:

Chapel Hill - where the Dwyers are reported to have lived - is located just to the right of the spire in the top left corner: it's quite a steep road, stretching towards the river, but not all the way to it.

The flooding can be really quite impressive:

As I've suggested, although the above images are from later in the year than either disappearance occurred - you can see how a relatively minor event - compared to these - might still be considered quite hazardous.

That said, this could be a complete red herring - although an albeit not exhaustive bumble around on streetview doesn't provide an obvious entry point for regular traffic in normal conditions. (But then, as already admitted, the idea the Dwyers entered the water at all could be a similar red herring.)

Ashe Quay (hard by the river, far side of the bridge, left hand side - in the first image) seems an option at first - but there appear to be obstacles in the way of an easy entry. Possibly these did not exist at the time (the work their now does appear quite new - but that's not to say there wasn't something similar before). I did wonder, in the earlier case, if the victim had been a fisherman, and had maybe driven through fields on the north side of the river (right hand side in first image) and misjudged the bank - but that's just me freeforming. If he'd been an avid angler, I dare say it would be mentioned somewhere.

 

[Floyd]

I did wonder, in the earlier case, if the victim had been a fisherman, and had maybe driven through fields on the north side of the river (right hand side in first image) and misjudged the bank - but that's just me freeforming. If he'd been an avid angler, I dare say it would be mentioned somewhere.

I'm wondering if there's was/is a possible entry to the bank via this side road?
There also appears to be some kind of building or landing area next to the river;

 

[Steven]

I really hope there's a happy ending to this puzzling story.

 

[SimonBurchell]

I really hope there's a happy ending to this puzzling story.

That seems highly unlikely, sadly.

 

[Steven]

I also hope that there was no crime involved. For some reason, I keep thinking of The Secret, the tv drama about an awful crime; even though this mystery seems very different indeed from that notorious case.

 

[catseye]

I also hope that there was no crime involved. For some reason, I keep thinking of The Secret, the tv drama about an awful crime; even though this mystery seems very different indeed from that notorious case.

Indeed. I am still invested in the vanishing of Trevaline Evans in 1990. I recently watched an edition of In the Footsteps of Killers (very good but they could lose Emilia Fox trying to look as though she's actually in an episode of Silent Witness) which I think came to some conclusions about her disappearance. She has never been found either.

In the Fermoy case, when the victims are over 60 and there is no sign of any kind of robbery to their house (which anyone who meant them ill could have got away with ransacking if he'd done away with them) - I think, river.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Indeed. I am still invested in the vanishing of Trevaline Evans in 1990. I recently watched an edition of In the Footsteps of Killers (very good but they could lose Emilia Fox trying to look as though she's actually in an episode of Silent Witness) which I think came to some conclusions about her disappearance. She has never been found either...

Yes, that's another genuinely odd case.

The Shocking Details guys did a decent podcast on that one. (It's here, if anyone's interested.)

I don't really like In the Footsteps of Killers, partly for the reason given - I can't stand Silent Witness either. (And yes, I know - I'm very picky; I'm not actually say I'm right to be that way.)

Also because I don't think I've ever heard Prof David Wilson say a single thing that a reasonably intelligent person couldn't have worked out for themselves. (There I go again.)

 

[Robbrent]

It puzzles me that with so many people claiming psychic powers and remote viewing, what do they never seem to be able to solve the long running mysterious cases like the one being discussed?

 

[Stormkhan]

Many claim that they did ... but 'the authorities wouldn't listen'.
Also investigation/searches often get bombarded by self-proclaimed psychics giving them 'leads'.

 

[catseye]

Many claim that they did ... but 'the authorities wouldn't listen'.
Also investigation/searches often get bombarded by self-proclaimed psychics giving them 'leads'.

Leads like - 'they're in the river'?

It doesn't seem to have been very thoroughly checked.

 

[ChrisBoardman]

This is just a river, it's not like trying to retrieve a priceless diamond from the Titanic.

 

[Spookdaddy]

...It doesn't seem to have been very thoroughly checked.

I suppose the thing is, without some sort of clue, where would you start? And if you had no actual indication that the Dwyers had even gone in the river (which we don't) then, given the obvious costs and manpower involved, would you start at all?

Before he was discovered by accident William Fennessy was parked underwater, apparently somewhere more or less opposite the rowing club building* - for twenty-three years!

According to their website, Fermoy Rowing Club has been regularly rowing the three miles of the river directly upstream from the weir in the town centre since 1884. Given the amount of river traffic that must have passed near Fennessy's car - and very possibly over it - in those two plus decades (and we're talking about oars, so very close to the surface - and probably occasionally under it) then the fact that he was not discovered earlier must surely be an indication that the conditions are not ideal for finding things, possibly even if you're looking for them.

That said, I'd be surprised if - since Fennessy's discovery - there haven't been further searches. But again, there's only so much river you can check before you have to wonder whether the resources involved might not be better placed elsewhere.

*Or around another 50 metres upstream – depending on which fact offered in the newspaper article is most accurate.

 

[ChrisBoardman]

I suppose the thing is, without some sort of clue, where would you start? And if you had no actual indication that the Dwyers had even gone in the river (which we don't) then, given the obvious costs and manpower involved, would you start at all?

Before he was discovered by accident William Fennessy was parked underwater, apparently somewhere more or less opposite the rowing club building* - for twenty-three years!

According to their website, Fermoy Rowing Club has been regularly rowing the three miles of the river directly upstream from the weir in the town centre since 1884. Given the amount of river traffic that must have passed near Fennessy's car - and very possibly over it - in those two plus decades (and we're talking about oars, so very close to the surface - and probably occasionally under it) then the fact that he was not discovered earlier must surely be an indication that the conditions are not ideal for finding things, possibly even if you're looking for them.

That said, I'd be surprised if - since Fennessy's discovery - there haven't been further searches. But again, there's only so much river you can check before you have to wonder whether the resources involved might not be better placed elsewhere.

*Or around another 50 metres upstream – depending on which fact offered in the newspaper article is most accurate.

It is called the Blackwater river, I guess they would not call it that if you could see the bottom.

 

[Stormkhan]

*mumbles* I got confused at the outset because I'd once rented a boat to go from Chelmsford to Maldon along the Blackwater river.

 

[catseye]

I suppose the thing is, without some sort of clue, where would you start? And if you had no actual indication that the Dwyers had even gone in the river (which we don't) then, given the obvious costs and manpower involved, would you start at all?

Before he was discovered by accident William Fennessy was parked underwater, apparently somewhere more or less opposite the rowing club building* - for twenty-three years!

According to their website, Fermoy Rowing Club has been regularly rowing the three miles of the river directly upstream from the weir in the town centre since 1884. Given the amount of river traffic that must have passed near Fennessy's car - and very possibly over it - in those two plus decades (and we're talking about oars, so very close to the surface - and probably occasionally under it) then the fact that he was not discovered earlier must surely be an indication that the conditions are not ideal for finding things, possibly even if you're looking for them.

That said, I'd be surprised if - since Fennessy's discovery - there haven't been further searches. But again, there's only so much river you can check before you have to wonder whether the resources involved might not be better placed elsewhere.

*Or around another 50 metres upstream – depending on which fact offered in the newspaper article is most accurate.

Hopefully the recent discovery will inspire another search. I know what you mean, there's a lot of river to look at, but it's not infinite. Modern technology has come on a lot since 1990, and it seems like the river might be the obvious culprit in disappearances.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Hopefully the recent discovery will inspire another search. I know what you mean, there's a lot of river to look at, but it's not infinite. Modern technology has come on a lot since 1990, and it seems like the river might be the obvious culprit in disappearances.

This is true, but again, I suppose hard economic factors must play a part - I have no idea how much the Nicola Bulley underwater search cost, but an awful lot is probably a safe bet; and in her case searchers had a much clearer indication that the water was a factor (and even then, it was not straightforward). Also I note that it was reported that the Blackwater Sub Aqua Search and Rescue discovered Fennessy in 2012 'by chance' - so it may be that they were in fact looking for something else entirely. Maybe the Dwyers? Although you'd think that would have been mentioned in reports at the time. They may also simply have been on exercise.

There's talk locally of trying to renovate Fermoy weir - if it ever happens one has to wonder if the works involved might turn up anything.

There has also been - over the last few years - a Europe wide push to remove weirs and other river barriers. I don't think there's any talk of that in Fermoy, but you have to wonder what emerges from the water when water courses settle to their natural levels. If nothing else, great set up for a bit of crime fiction.

(Also just struck me that as the purpose of a weir is to control downstream river flow by pooling water upstream - that can't be much help in Fermoy, with all that flooding. Not with the weir being where it is.)

 

[ChrisBoardman]

Hopefully the recent discovery will inspire another search. I know what you mean, there's a lot of river to look at, but it's not infinite. Modern technology has come on a lot since 1990, and it seems like the river might be the obvious culprit in disappearances.

There may be a lot of river but there are only so many places that a car can enter the water.

 

[catseye]

There may be a lot of river but there are only so many places that a car can enter the water.

It could be carried downstream though. It might not be sitting where it went in.