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Rex Heflin Photographs (Santa Ana, California; 1965)

Coastaljames said:
They look like little plastic or metal bottle tops, they are clearly very close to the car.


They look fake.
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Hmmm. I don't see that -I see diffused light illuminating the object which is at distance. I've painted a lot of scenes outdoors from life.
But, I could be wrong.
 
We need more good photographic evidence and videos to come out. It will have to be that way for more folks to know UFOs are real. I don't blame skeptics for skepticism. I was where many are now; feeling it was probably likely but unable to leave the fence and run into the field. We need more evidence to come out --we can all agree on that. Hopefully it will, beyond the report.
 
feinman said:
We need more good photographic evidence and videos to come out.
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The absolute best evidence would be declared to be CGI.

feinman said:
We need more evidence to come out --we can all agree on that.
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We all have our beliefs...these are very unlikely to be changed by other people. Nobody can convince anyone, only direct experience can change minds.
 
Coastaljames said:
The absolute best evidence would be declared to be CGI.
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Well, that really isn't true. No-one is accusing the Navy of faking the various clips and photographs which have emerged since 2004; it is taken for granted that these are honestly made. But because they have good provenance they can be analysed in detail, and detailed analysis seems to show that they are all explainable by mundane phenomena.

Until a real alien spaceraft arrives, or is otherwise detected at long range, I expect that every such honest movie and honest photo will be explainable by mundane phenomena. I really, really, really want there to be some real photos of alien craft - but it hasn't happened yet.
 
eburacum said:
Well, that really isn't true. No-one is accusing the Navy of faking the various clips and photographs which have emerged since 2004; it is taken for granted that these are honestly made. But because they have good provenance they can be analysed in detail, and detailed analysis seems to show that they are all explainable by mundane phenomena.

Until a real alien spaceraft arrives, or is otherwise detected at long range, I expect that every such honest movie and honest photo will be explainable by mundane phenomena. I really, really, really want there to be some real photos of alien craft - but it hasn't happened yet.
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You know we disagree about the photos and footage, but what would you think an alien spaceship would look like, Eburacum?
I think Costaljames is on the right track, but I agree with you that good footage could be released that could settle the matter. The short time I was on Metabunk before all of my comments were subject to review for... Wait for it... Being "too speculative" :p (on a site where shewn-to-be-wrong-theories-the-next-day are frantically being typed in, and none of them match what is being told to them by witnesses), I asked Mick (seems nice) what would convince him UFOs are alien devices, and he gave me an answer. iirc, it was clear footage of a craft doing extraordinary things with footage taken from two separate locations of the object. That made me happy, because I am sure such evidence will eventually be released or leak out. Corbell doesn't even bat an eye when he says this is true, and I suspect he has seen such footage and is just waiting to get the signal to release it. In fact, listening to folks in the intelligence community, I think it's possible that much more compelling footage than what Mick is asking for exists, with multiple types of sensor information.
I think what Coastaljames was suggesting is that some people will never believe or agree on the nature of UFOs. A lot of people will think they are demonic, etc., etc., too. If I lived in ancient times and saw what I did in 2010, I'd certainly think I had been visited by gods or angels.
 
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feinman said:
You know we disagree about the photos and footage, but what would you think an alien spaceship would look like, Eburacum?
I think Costaljames is on the right track, but I agree with you that good footage could be released that could settle the matter. The short time I was on Metabunk before all of my comments were subject to review for... Wait for it... Being "too speculative" :p (on a site where shewn-to-be-wrong-theories-the-next-day are frantically being typed in, and none of them match what is being told to them by witnesses), I asked Mick (seems nice) what would convince him UFOs are alien devices, and he gave me an answer. iirc, it was clear footage of a craft doing extraordinary things with footage taken from two separate locations of the object. That made me happy, because I am sure such evidence will eventually be released or leak out. Corbell doesn't even bat an eye when he says this is true, and I suspect he has seen such footage and is just waiting to get the signal to release it. In fact, listening to folks in the intelligence community, I think it's possible that much more compelling footage than what Mick is asking for exists, with multiple types of sensor information.
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With our current (primitive) state of knowledge, I'd have thought the interstellar craft and the landing/surveillance craft would be different vehicles. The lander would be designed to cope with heavy atmospheres, and thus would need to be more robust and compact than the interstellar craft.

But I have to say I don't believe in interstellar travel, at least for humanoids - I suspect that the technology required is never achieved before people exhaust their own planet's resources. Cockroaches, now :)
 
I've no idea how they are getting here. I saw an object shoot out into deep space very fast --waay too fast for anything I could conceive of as anything that was interacting with atmosphere or anything else. I've also heard a simlar description from a retired military man who was on Catalina Island (near where some the recent activity has happened, and it is known for it), and watched an object over LA shoot instantly up into space and away. But that isn't good enough --there must be another mode of travel --or as Elizondo has suggested, they don't move through time and space in a linear manner, but are able to weave through it. Experiencing reality in that manner would explain some of their bizarre anticipatory abilities, etc.
 
feinman said:
I've no idea how they are getting here. I saw an object shoot out into deep space very fast --waay too fast for anything I could conceive of as anything that was interacting with atmosphere or anything else. I've also heard a simlar description from a retired military man who was on Catalina Island (near where some the recent activity has happened, and it is known for it), and watched an object over LA shoot instantly up into space and away. But that isn't good enough --there must be another mode of travel --or as Elizondo has suggested, they don't move through time and space in a linear manner, but are able to weave through it. Experiencing reality in that manner would explain some of their bizarre anticipatory abilities, etc.
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I used to do a lot of speculating with people over things like this. But beyond our current scientific understanding what can we prove? Nothing, until maybe (see my tagline) some scientists resume thinking clearly instead of deeply.

With my speculating head on, IF there are 'alien' UFO's - from what we know of our own solar system atm they must be capable of interstellar travel.
Given the theory of relativity then I can quickly think of three possibilities:

1. The theory of relativity is incomplete or inaccurate. Otherwise to get anywhere would just take too long unless:
2. Our understanding of the shape of space is incorrect and there are 'shortcuts' . Or:
3. There are more physical dimensions than we can perceive. if so, it would be quite possible for things of more than three dimensions to apparently materialise and dematerialise more-or-less instantly as far as our 3D senses could tell.

Or, many more possibilities, but first one has to accept (as I believe) that far from the way we flatter ourselves we know lots about the continuum, we are only just beginning to learn.
 
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feinman said:
I asked Mick (seems nice) what would convince him UFOs are alien devices, and he gave me an answer. iirc, it was clear footage of a craft doing extraordinary things with footage taken from two separate locations of the object.
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Yes, that would convince me, too. I've always advocated (for instance) that the cameras on the ISS were stereoscopic, in order to give a good triangulation on the various bits of debris that people claim are alien spacecraft.

I would note that there are a few ( a very few) number of UFO photos that fit Mick's criteria of being taken by independent witnesses from different angles, and which allow triangulation. However the fact that there is enough information to accurately fix the location of the craft also helps these craft to be identified - and in every case of this kind, the identification has been made (it is usually been balloons).

That seems to suggest very strongly that all such cases could be identified given enough information.
 
feinman said:
but what would you think an alien spaceship would look like, Eburacum?
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As an amateur SF writer and illustrator, I can show you some.
MARSCYCLERsmall.jpgdiadematasmall.pngmacrostatssmall.pngspacefarersmall.pngthinsmall.pngCOLONYSHIPsmall.png
Most of these are supposed to be human designs, but any aliens we meet would need to follow the same laws of physics and logistics as we would.
 
feinman said:
We need more good photographic evidence and videos to come out. It will have to be that way for more folks to know UFOs are real. I don't blame skeptics for skepticism. I was where many are now; feeling it was probably likely but unable to leave the fence and run into the field. We need more evidence to come out --we can all agree on that. Hopefully it will, beyond the report.
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How do you account for Riddle’s testimony that train wheels were used?

Riddle continued with his story: Some time after he had seen the UFO "toy train wheel" photos at work, he saw them in the newspapers, just like he heard they might be. The story had soon become huge, it had become very big news. It was then that Riddle became conflicted and genuinely concerned. He thought that Heflin was affable enough, but Riddle said that he knew what he knew, now what to do? He went home and asked his family what they felt should be his next step. They disapproved of his telling anything. No need to get involved. It will die down and no one is getting hurt or anything. Why spoil one nice guy's fun? The other folks at the office felt they should say nothing. So Riddle held his tongue too.

Today his family supports Riddle coming forward with his revelation, and they confirm that it happened just as he said it did at the time. And Riddle has confirmed this story to reporter Amy Wilson of The Orange County Register for the record. He is 100% certain that the Heflin photos were shown to him prior to their publication – and that they were explained by Heflin's neighbor as a hoax using toy train wheels. He also detailed to her that he was still wrestling with "talking or not talking" about what he knew to be the truth about the Heflin incident.
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eburacum said:
Most of these are supposed to be human designs, but any aliens we meet would need to follow the same laws of physics and logistics as we would.
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Why? And what if there are laws of physics that we just haven't discovered yet?
 
Any pix of anything like the large, "bat-like" objects Arnold described and not 'flying saucers', which everyone thought he had seen?

Anyone, anywhere, anytime claimed to have taken even one single photo?
 
I didn't mention cockroaches idly earlier, though yes, it was a bit jokey as well. But an insect body can take much more punishment proportional to size than a mammalian body. Could insects using a hive mind develop a civilisation and ultimately spaceships? Can we say its impossible? They are already of well above average intelligence on the absolute scale of (known) living things.
 
Analogue Boy said:
How do you account for Riddle’s testimony that train wheels were used?
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I'll admit that it does indeed look a lot like a model train wheel! Apparently Heflin laughed off the idea that it was Riddle's train wheel and claimed others had tried to claim it was a hoax too, but he apparently stuck to his account. There does remain the possibility it is a hoax as you suggest, but I think it is a real encounter. It is just the kind of thing a UFO would do.
 
Cochise said:
I didn't mention cockroaches idly earlier, though yes, it was a bit jokey as well. But an insect body can take much more punishment proportional to size than a mammalian body. Could insects using a hive mind develop a civilisation and ultimately spaceships? Can we say its impossible? They are already of well above average intelligence on the absolute scale of (known) living things.
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According to the Wilbur Smith memo and even US government intelligence that spoke to the Brits. "aliens" have been found that appeared to be constructed like insects. I don't do humanoids but keep an open mind. If such things were found, I'd guess they were humanoid tools designed to interact with us.
 
Coastaljames said:
By us.

It might be very possible that any kind of alien presence didn't get our "law of physics" memo.
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The thing that really opened my mind on this was James Burke explaining how a 3D object might look to a 2D being. Since then I've realised that 'our' laws of physics are limited by what we can perceive, either by ourselves or by machines we construct.

I used to know a very experienced mathematician who was convinced that there had to be a minimum of 9 dimensions. I recall him demonstrating the proof in beer on a bar counter. I'm afraid I can't remember the exact details although that was far from the only time we discussed it.

This is why the database software that I sell is an n-dimensional design. I didn't create it from scratch, it evolved from existing concepts and my work on it has simply come up with a more modern implementation.

The architecture is somewhat difficult to explain in a 2 dimensional media :)
 
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Cochise said:
The thing that really opened my mind on this was James Burke explaining how a 3D object might look to a 2D being.
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Are you aware of "Flatland" mate?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland

Cochise said:
Since then I've realised that 'our' laws of physics are limited by what we can perceive, either by ourselves or by machines we construct.
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Exactly...and when we say "oh, these objects do not follow the laws of physics"? We are like caveman trying to work out what the moon is. What do we know?

Cochise said:
I used to know a very experienced mathematician who was convinced that there had to be a minimum of 9 dimensions.
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This guy theorises 10. I try to get my head round this stuff, but...well, I'm a caveman.
 
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Coastaljames said:
This guy theorises 10. I try to get my head round this stuff, but...well, I'm a caveman.
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!0 vs 9 - that may depend on whether you start counting your dimensions at 0 or 1. But my guy did maintain a minimum of 9, so he wouldn't argue with 10.

I didn't know about Flatland, thanks.
 
Cochise said:
The thing that really opened my mind on this was James Burke explaining how a 3D object might look to a 2D being. Since then I've realised that 'our' laws of physics are limited by what we can perceive, either by ourselves or by machines we construct.
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Homer finds the 3rd dimension

 
Imagine coming from a world where gravity was minimal, and arriving here. It would be like putting on forty stone overnight.
 
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