Satanism

KarlD

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Ive been reading a bit about Satan and I find him a very interesting character, firstly his name lucifer drives from 'Bringer of light' or 'Morning star' he was the only one of the angels who had the balls to stand up to this god character who seems to be a bit of a psycopath.
I think he got a very raw deal and reading a bit about what satanists actualy believe rather than the daily mail version it seems that they think that you should live your life giving your best and being the best at whatever you do without making excuses to anyone.Doing right and not cowtowing to some ficticious sky fairy. Seems fair enough to me.
 

OneWingedBird

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If you haven't read it yet and it's still available, try Blanche Barton's The Church of Satan, which is the story of the first 25 years (iirc) of The Church of Satan. Barton was their official biographer and i believe Anton LaVey's partner, so probably pretty one sided, but otherwise a colourful and entertaining read from an 'insider'

Can't really comment of LaVey's works, besides The Satanic Bible, as i find most of it, for my taste, pretentious bollocks. Without meaning any particular disrespect to LaVey, he really was an accompished circus man who seems to have decided that he didn't care for the 'god racket', so made his name in the 'anti-god racket' :D
 

DieDieMyDarling

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BlackRiverFalls said:
If you haven't read it yet and it's still available, try Blanche Barton's The Church of Satan, which is the story of the first 25 years (iirc) of The Church of Satan. Barton was their official biographer and i believe Anton LaVey's partner, so probably pretty one sided, but otherwise a colourful and entertaining read from an 'insider'

Can't really comment of LaVey's works, besides The Satanic Bible, as i find most of it, for my taste, pretentious bollocks. Without meaning any particular disrespect to LaVey, he really was an accompished circus man who seems to have decided that he didn't care for the 'god racket', so made his name in the 'anti-god racket' :D
Yeah, I read it a few years ago, when looking for answers and trying all the various flavours. It's all very much like the episode of South Park about the goths, conforming is gay, join us in being non-conforming or you're gay too.
 

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IMO pretentious bollocks is a pretty fair assessment of The Satanic Bible, it tries a bit too hard to be contrarian...
 

KarlD

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Timble2 said:
IMO pretentious bollocks is a pretty fair assessment of The Satanic Bible, it tries a bit too hard to be contrarian...
I don't know if thats very fair, it may be contrary from a christian or mainstream western viewpoint but then again a lot of philosophy could be said to be contrary from that perspective.
 

DieDieMyDarling

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KarlD said:
Timble2 said:
IMO pretentious bollocks is a pretty fair assessment of The Satanic Bible, it tries a bit too hard to be contrarian...
I don't know if thats very fair, it may be contrary from a christian or mainstream western viewpoint but then again a lot of philosophy could be said to be contrary from that perspective.
But the Satanic Bible seems to try to be contrary for the sake of it. And very cliquey too. It's all very "join us" and "let's be contrary together".
 

river_styx

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From what I recall Lucifer wasn't the only angel to stand up to God, but he was the ringleader.
 

ramonmercado

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river_styx said:
From what I recall Lucifer wasn't the only angel to stand up to God, but he was the ringleader.
Actually, Peter Mandelson was the real inspiration behind the Coup attempt. He just got Lucifer to front for him.
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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Satanism reminds me of a sort of unsuccessful TV series spin-off. The equivalent of, 'Joanie Loves Chachi', to Christianity's, 'Happy Days'. Mormonism being more like, the slightly more successful, even more off the wall, 'Happy Days', spin-off, 'Mork and Mindy'.
 

GNC

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Pietro_Mercurios said:
Satanism reminds me of a sort of unsuccessful TV series spin-off. The equivalent of, 'Joanie Loves Chachi', to Christianity's, 'Happy Days'. Mormonism being more like, the slightly more successful, even more off the wall, 'Happy Days', spin-off, 'Mork and Mindy'.
Ironic that Christianity is a spin-off from Judaism.
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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gncxx said:
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Satanism reminds me of a sort of unsuccessful TV series spin-off. The equivalent of, 'Joanie Loves Chachi', to Christianity's, 'Happy Days'. Mormonism being more like, the slightly more successful, even more off the wall, 'Happy Days', spin-off, 'Mork and Mindy'.
Ironic that Christianity is a spin-off from Judaism.
That's more of a sequel, like The Sarah Jane Chronicles' TV series, following on from the 'Terminator' movies.

Then you have all the different types of Christianity, like regional variations of 'Big Brother', or 'The X Factor'. Except for when a major re-imagining of the franchise occurs, like when the Coptic, Byzantine, Roman Catholic churches, all gave way to the Protestant Reformation. That's more like, a major re-boot, on the scale of the difference between the old and the new 'Battlestar Galactica'. :)
 

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Sarah Connor fought terminators. Sarah Jane just had Sontarans and the like to deal with. You do get those two mixed up Pietro ;)
 

river_styx

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So you're saying that Simon Cowel is Pontius Pilate, Pietro?

If only we could crucify those X Factor gumps.
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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BlackRiverFalls said:
Sarah Connor fought terminators. Sarah Jane just had Sontarans and the like to deal with. You do get those two mixed up Pietro ;)
Oh! Bum! :oops:
 

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Sarah Jane would have finished off the Terminators and Skynet far more efficiently...
 

JamesWhitehead

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"Ive (sic) been reading a bit about Satan . . . "

If it's important to you, you should try reading a lot. Start with Paradise Lost. Was Milton of the Devil's Party without knowing it, as Blake thought? Or was he an Arian heretic, as has been alleged by several modern scholars. To what extent are all revolutions diabolical and was Paradise Lost the record of a failed one?

South Park's dealings with the Devil are maybe a little more accessible and seem to be concerned mainly with the diabolism we project onto overseas enemies. If the comic mode is disconcerting, we should recall that Milton himself felt compelled to follow Paradise Lost with what was technically the comedy of Paradise Regained. It was not a hit.

Could it be that South Park is of God's Party without knowing it? Does it represent a more or less radical approach to the Human Condition than the existential Tony Hancock attempted in the fifties and sixties? Stranded between them, we have the enigma of Bagpuss, not exactly human at all and yet blessed by Emily . . . :miaow:
 

jubecrew

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KarlD said:
Ive been reading a bit about Satan and I find him a very interesting character, firstly his name lucifer drives from 'Bringer of light' or 'Morning star' he was the only one of the angels who had the balls to stand up to this god character who seems to be a bit of a psycopath.
I think he got a very raw deal and reading a bit about what satanists actualy believe rather than the daily mail version it seems that they think that you should live your life giving your best and being the best at whatever you do without making excuses to anyone.Doing right and not cowtowing to some ficticious sky fairy. Seems fair enough to me.
I heard from a Christian guy that wished to fill my head that the devil was an angel of music and he was the best musician heaven had!

I guess this would be why people view the devils music as anything but praising your holy most holy

I personally like the name Beelzebub and have read into the minions of hells armies haha quite interesting stuff thru the eyes of wikis :D
 

segovius

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jubecrew said:
KarlD said:
Ive been reading a bit about Satan and I find him a very interesting character, firstly his name lucifer drives from 'Bringer of light' or 'Morning star' he was the only one of the angels who had the balls to stand up to this god character who seems to be a bit of a psycopath.
I think he got a very raw deal and reading a bit about what satanists actualy believe rather than the daily mail version it seems that they think that you should live your life giving your best and being the best at whatever you do without making excuses to anyone.Doing right and not cowtowing to some ficticious sky fairy. Seems fair enough to me.
I heard from a Christian guy that wished to fill my head that the devil was an angel of music and he was the best musician heaven had!

I guess this would be why people view the devils music as anything but praising your holy most holy

I personally like the name Beelzebub and have read into the minions of hells armies haha quite interesting stuff thru the eyes of wikis :D
Apparently Beelezebub is a corruption of "ba'al Sahib" which means 'perfect man'...
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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segovius said:
...

Apparently Beelezebub is a corruption of "ba'al Sahib" which means 'perfect man'...
Or, Ba'al Zebul, which apparently means, Lord Prince.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

...

Ba'al Zebûb

...


Some scholars have suggested that Ba'al Zebul which means 'lord prince' was deliberately changed by the worshippers of Yahweh to Ba'al Zebub ('lord of the flies') in order to ridicule and protest the worship of Ba'al Zebul. (NIV Study Bible published by Zondervan)

...
 

KarlD

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JamesWhitehead said:
"Ive (sic) been reading a bit about Satan . . . "

If it's important to you, you should try reading a lot. Start with Paradise Lost. Was Milton of the Devil's Party without knowing it, as Blake thought? Or was he an Arian heretic, as has been alleged by several modern scholars. To what extent are all revolutions diabolical and was Paradise Lost the record of a failed one?

South Park's dealings with the Devil are maybe a little more accessible and seem to be concerned mainly with the diabolism we project onto overseas enemies. If the comic mode is disconcerting, we should recall that Milton himself felt compelled to follow Paradise Lost with what was technically the comedy of Paradise Regained. It was not a hit.

Could it be that South Park is of God's Party without knowing it? Does it represent a more or less radical approach to the Human Condition than the existential Tony Hancock attempted in the fifties and sixties? Stranded between them, we have the enigma of Bagpuss, not exactly human at all and yet blessed by Emily . . . :miaow:

Erm O.K never having read Paradise lost I shall look into it, Ive never really thought of Bagpuss as Satanic metaphor. :shock:

What is interesting is that as a punishment for his failled coup he is given dominion over the Earth, which is not what you might expect. I suspect that if you did meet him then he would be very charming, a man of wealth and taste as the stones had it.I doubt very much that he would have horns and a tail. I think that the idea in the bible is that Satan is a metaphor for free will.
 

KarlD

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segovius said:
I heard from a Christian guy that wished to fill my head that the devil was an angel of music and he was the best musician heaven had!

I guess this would be why people view the devils music as anything but praising your holy most holy

I personally like the name Beelzebub and have read into the minions of hells armies haha quite interesting stuff thru the eyes of wikis :D
Apparently Beelezebub is a corruption of "ba'al Sahib" which means 'perfect man'...[/quote]

Its also interesting ,you get the stories of the wondering blues man who meets The devil on the road, sells his soul and then plays the most amazing music.
 

KarlD

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Also you have the Devil of english folklaw who is the origin of the 'green man' Pan type figure who gets transformed into Satan of the christians.
 

_Lizard23_

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I'd argue that Bagpuss is more of an avatar of St. Anthony of Padua.
 

jubecrew

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I find it quite interesting I have also mentioned the Cross Roads movie where the blues man sells his soul to the devil to play great guitar

I also agree on the meta remark regarding the free will.

:D

KarlD the devil musta made ya say that hah
 

ramonmercado

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jubecrew said:
I find it quite interesting I have also mentioned the Cross Roads movie where the blues man sells his soul to the devil to play great guitar

I also agree on the meta remark regarding the free will.

:D

KarlD the devil musta made ya say that hah
What? A Cross Roads Movie? Is there a Satanic Benny?
 

jubecrew

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ramonmercado said:
jubecrew said:
I find it quite interesting I have also mentioned the Cross Roads movie where the blues man sells his soul to the devil to play great guitar

I also agree on the meta remark regarding the free will.

:D

KarlD the devil musta made ya say that hah
What? A Cross Roads Movie? Is there a Satanic Benny?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090888/

this is a wicked stellar movie from the 80's - a must see ! has the karate kid
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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'Crossroads' is an okay movie. As mentioned in that same movie, the original, 'Devil at the Crossroads', who met Robert Johnson, may have been Papa Legba, from out of West Africa, by way of Ju Ju, Voodoo, hoodoo and the slave trade, rather than the ancient, Middle Eastern, Ba'al Zebu(l)b.
http://www.mudcat.org/rj-dave.cfm

Did Robert Johnson sell his soul at the crossroads?

"If you want to learn how to make songs yourself, you take your guitar and your go to where the road crosses that way, where a crossroads is. Get there be sure to get there just a little ' fore 12 that night so you know you'll be there. You have your guitar and be playing a piece there by yourself…A big black man will walk up there and take your guitar and he'll tune it. And then he'll play a piece and hand it back to you. That's the way I learned to play anything I want."

Tommy Johnson

One of the questions which is always on our minds here at the Mudcat is: Is it possible to sell one's soul to the devil? Shawn{one of the people who works with the Mudcat} traveled to the crossroads with his guitar at midnight. He played his entire repertoire twice, but to no avail. No devil, no big black man, just the same tuning which he began the night. Though, he did try this in the North, and since we are optimists, and maintain hope that maybe one needs to be at a southern crossroads.

...

A man named Julio Finn wrote a book titled: The Bluesman The Musical Heritage of Black Men and Women in the Americas. Finn adds the factor of voodoo to the equation, "It is doubtful whether Johnson could have written the lyrics of songs with out having been initiated into the cult…the symbolism involved in them is highly complex and of a nature which makes it highly improbable that they were simply things he 'picked up'(215)." With voodoo given credence, Finn provides an intuitive insight of Johnson's psyche and artistic sensibility. I believe an answer to our burning question is found with Julio Finn.
Just a hint of background information

The crossroads is a place loaded with superstitions and stories. Back in the days before the automobile and paved highways, people traveled dirt roads through the wilderness and bayous either on horseback or by foot. The pace of the journey was generally slow and often caused the mind to wander in the trees and shrubs. In a way travelers were much more vulnerable. They did not have the safety of their cars or road side phones to call for help. And as darkness fell, I'm sure that all of the superstitions and stories of evil devoured their consciousness.

Many countries such as the European countries, India, Greece and Japan, as well as people such as the American Indians, subscribed to the superstitions and folk tales of the crossroads. At these intersections, demons, evil spirits, ghosts, Kobolds and fairies were found. It is a burial place for suicides and murderers and a dump heap for parricides. The crossroads is a rendezvous for witches who use this place for Sabbat rituals. Sacrifices were offered to the gods to protect humans from the evil which lurked here.

Legba is a trickster deity and god of entrances and crossroads. He is part of the belief systems of blacks of Dutch Guina, Brazil, Trinidad, Cuba and the voodoo cult of Haiti and New Orleans. In the new world, Legba goes about in tatters and he functions in cult rituals "to open the way" for the gods to possess their devotees. For this reason his songs are sung first at all rites. In the new world syncretism he is often equated with the devil. With this information, we can assume that when Robert Johnson made his claim of meeting the devil, he was referring to Legba.

...

Finn's argument for voodoo becomes stronger at this point in Johnson's life. Johnson's young wife died during childbirth. Finn sees this as a catalyst which draws Johnson to a search within himself, an attempt to gain control of his life:

"Confronted with yet another crisis, this young man sought a means of transforming his life, by transforming life itself into a work of art. Disillusioned with the reality the white world imposed upon him, he turned to the world of magic to the supernatural powers promised by Hoodoo…Having realized that music was a kind of magic, he sought out magic to gain control over it(213)."

To harness this power he sought the guidance of a Root Doctor{a voodoo medicine man}. Deep in the bayou, he sought to understand that energy which all human beings possess. He learned to channel it through his guitar, much the same way a practitioner of voodoo channels a spirit using his body. In this way the blues is an offshoot of voodoo, an Americanized version of the African religion.

Finn argues that RJ was possessed by the idea of death:

"His songs are laments of a soul too sensitive to face up to the brutal realities of its existence. For Johnson was a creative genius in every sense of the word, by which I mean that he came to embody the art he practiced. He 'created' his-for lack of a better term- 'neurosis' the same as he created his songs; his genius gave birth to those very hellhounds he thought were following him when, in fact, the were inside him. That he made a pact at the crossroads, I do not doubt for a moment; but it was he who supplied the demon of the lore, the 'big black man'….His was the Nat Turner style of creativity, which either begets great artists or social revolutionaries. Turner saw blood in the sky, Johnson 'blues falling like hail'. He needed the curse of the crossroads in order to justify the existence of such visions…the devil became his excuse for being a genius(218)."


Finn's book, The Bluesman the Musical Heritage of Black Men and Women in the Americas, primary concerns itself with the background from which black music had evolved. It is for this reason that such an insightful look into one of the blues' biggest mysteries is found. Voodoo, the religion brought to the Americas on the slave ships, was replaced by a people seeking a chance to join the white Christian society. Because black culture has only recently been given even the slightest opportunity for acceptance, it is understandable how such an explanation can be hidden from our mainstream sensibilities. One can only wonder what other answers to life's mysteries are waiting in exile.

This and all original stories on the Mudcat Caf? are copyright 1997 byThe Mudcat Caf?, Inc. A Non-Profit Corporation, and the Authors, in this case David W. Scotese. All Rights Reserved.
Papa Legba, is traditionally a gatekeeper, messenger and trickster god, the gift of music might well be in his keeping. Perhaps the secret of traditional African rhythm was necessary to learn, 'The Blues', had to be earned, by entering into a secretive musician's guild?
 

segovius

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@Pietro_Mercurios

Re influences from Voodoo/Slave trade rather than Middle East - could be both.

There is a small amount of suggestive evidence of islamic influences in Voodoo; some Loa for example use the term "A salam ley" which is clearly from the Islamic greeting. Also the ceremony in some ways resembles Sufi drumming or Gnawa rituals but a direct influence is possibly unlikely.

What is more certain more interesting to my mind, is the accumulating evidence regarding Muslim origins of the Blues.

Upward of 30 percent of the African slaves in the United States were Muslim, and an untold number of them spoke and wrote Arabic, historians say now. Despite being pressured by slave owners to adopt Christianity and give up their old ways, many of these slaves continued to practice their religion and customs, or otherwise melded traditions from Africa into their new environment in the antebellum South. Forced to do menial, back-breaking work on plantations, for example, they still managed, throughout their days, to voice a belief in the God of the Quran. These slaves' practices eventually evolved -- decades and decades later, parallel with different singing traditions from Africa -- into the shouts and hollers that begat blues music, historians believe.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/08/15/INGMC85SSK1.DTL

The historian that wrote the work referenced in the above article draws attention to the similarities between Slave songs and the Call to Prayer, citing Levee Camp Holler. Not sure that proves too much myself but is interesting.

A recording of the call to prayer and comparison to Levee Camp Holler is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns8ZsAFWiVk
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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On the same level that Arabic Muslim culture probably has (North) African roots, that's probably true.


:lol:

Muslim calls to prayer of Arabic slavers, or drunken sea shanties about European sailors and their whores, probably sounded about the same to the young, African, human merchandise, torn untimely from tribal roots, alongsides the tearful folk songs about old Scotland, or Ireland, of their overseers, down on the old plantation.

All given an African rhythm and put into the gumbo pot to make soul food.
 

Pietro_Mercurios

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Because, as we all know, the Africans, themselves, didn't have a culture, until the Europeans, or the Arabs, kindly saved them from their savagery.

:roll:
 
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