Should We Try To Rescue Ghosts? Are There Morals For Ghost Hunting?

[JimELUCIER]

How do you know it's a better place? Serious question BTW.

No one can ever really know, we can only hope, because we want good things for them.

 

[Stormkhan]

Or at least things that you hold as good for a disembodied entity.

 

[Xanatic*]

Yes, there is a chance that if you help a ghost to move on, they will go to hell rather than heaven.

 

[catseye]

No one can ever really know, we can only hope, because we want good things for them.

We might want good things for them, but how can we know where we may be sending them? We may be like children pulling fish out of a pond because they think they look cold and wet and uncomfortable.

 

[Stormkhan]

"Look, it might seem cruel, but I have decided that this is best for you. You have no choice in the matter and - in fact - no idea if this is morally wrong, but my morals say this is what's best for you. Of course, you have no choice; I think it's good for you.
"It might hurt - I have no idea - but that's a price I'm willing for you to pay.
"You may not want it to happen - but *ahem* it's for your own good!"

No one can ever really know, we can only hope, because we want good things for them.

So your 'wants' are more important than anything else? Note: your use of the "WE" word indicates that you speak for everyone. And don't dare say that you speak for the compassionate!

We are in the realms of speculation of (as I said earlier) What is a ghost? You have the idea that they are lost souls that need rescue. What about souls that have been assigned by a Supreme Being to act as a warning until the End Days? What about those spirits have been condemned by the Creator to walk the Earth?
"Well, I'm a nice person so I'll pray for their deliverence."
Knock yourself out, our kid. You do you. But - and this is my own personal concept - is that I try to to do no harm to any living being. When it comes to ghosts, well, bets are off. By NOT wishing them into a lovely, happy place, are we being cruel? No. Are we obliged to wish only for the best for a lost soul in a swirl of existence? No.
"What harm can it be, if we pray for the lost souls that seem to be ghosts?"
Absolutely none. Rattle them bones, chant them words - if it makes you feel good then fine. If you feel it is a good thing then fine.
But don't suggest that there's a moral imperative to do the ceremonies, the 'wishes' that you do.
Silly, I know, but I resent attempts for support for an attitude, especially when it comes to such a nebulous topic. It's a child, in a playground, testing out their beliefs in the hope someone agrees.

What ever happened to observing an event and not being obliged to interfere "because it was right according to my own beliefs"?

 

[Recycled1]

I've always thought I would like to be able to help trapped ghosts "move on". It never occured to me that they might move on to Hell!
But it can't be a good feeling to see someone else living in "your" old home and changing things, if you haven't realised that you've actually died.

I don't think I believe in a tradional hell, anyway. I think -eventually -we learn to judge ourselves, and that may be punishment in itself-
appalling regret and horror at what we've been /done? It may take the whole of eternity to come to the realisation, of course!

 

[escargot]

No one can ever really know, we can only hope, because we want good things for them.

What's that old saying? - 'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.'

 

[titch]

IF ghosts are human spirits trapped in the earthly plain then yes, we should help them move on too wherever they are meant to be, but IF that was the case i think angels or higher spirits would be better placed to help then us flesh and blood humans.

 

[Bad Bungle]

Thinking back to The Fades supernatural drama on BBC3 (2011-2012) and decision not to commission a 2nd series just before it won a BAFTA. Fades/ghosts were trapped on Earth because the mechanism for them to move on (to Heaven/Hell) had broken down. Unlikely 'hero' gets the process working again because he can - without considering why the conveyor belt had broken down/been switched off in the first place.
Cue angry Angelic Host.

 

[Stormkhan]

IF ghosts are human spirits trapped in the earthly plain then yes, we should help them move on too wherever they are meant to be, but IF that was the case i think angels or higher spirits would be better placed to help then us flesh and blood humans.

True.
Also what if the spirit was put there by Divine Will, to give guidance or act as a warning? Going against God's Will? And how does an omniscient Supreme Being 'overlook' a spirit stuck on Earth? Is it being suggested that a spirit might be put there as a test of the living witness' goodness?
There is, frankly, no point in discussing whether we are obliged to 'lay' a ghost, hold a personal seance to allow the 'poor' ... thing to move on to Higher Planes, until the actual question of the survival of the soul on Earth.
There's too many 'what if's ...' to make a definitive pronouncement. Because, ultimately, it comes down to personal, including religious, beliefs.

 

[JimELUCIER]

This is a topic that's been on my mind for decades.
I was just watching an episode of Kindred Spirits tonight, when the subject of Ghost Rescue came to mind.
If ghost hunters find that there maybe a child haunting a location, should the ghost hunters, or the owners of the location try to see if they can rescue the child?

My personal opinion would be 'yes'.
I feel that if it really is a child, then that child does not have the faculties to discern for itself, at that age, the consequences of its choose to stay, or leave.
Of course we can argue freedom of choice, but would a child fully comprehend that choice?

There is the famous haunting of The Conjuring House, where a spirit keeps pulling a book off the shelf in the library room. The book is called "Moral Relativity.". Is the spirit, or the spirits trying to ask us to review our morals when we do ghost searching? Should we be questioning our motives? Are we using the ghosts for entertainment, for pleasure, and for profit?

There is yet another question we should be asking.
Should we be allowing haunted locations to remain intact, or should we be destroying, old, abandoned, run down, haunted factories, hospitals, and houses? Where is our moral compass on this? Are we inadvertently creating too many portals, and gateways in all of this? I would love your comments , or questions.
Maybe we can find solutions to these questions together.

Thank you.

Thank you everyone.

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

I have to say, the trend lately of "rescuing ghosts" on ghost hunting shows really annoyed me. On Kindred Spirits (now cancelled) Amy and Adam declared themselves to be 'psychologists for the dead' Now, considering Amy and Adam are only TV ghost hunters with no mental health counseling experience, it begs the moral question: if ghost hunters are morally obligated to help ghosts, should we be letting any random idiot do the counseling?

 

[Krepostnoi]

Its all about giving the option to the human deceased spirit. Most often a spirit of ghost of a person is stuck in a time loop. Not having enough energy to leave the location. They maybe drained, and not able to muster enough energy to cross over. For all we know they may only need a little nudge. Just a little bit of extra help could go along way. For centuries there have been numerous Shamans who have helped countless spirits to move on. I never spoke of rights, I speak of possibilities. There are also numerous accounts of spirits talking into recorders of all types, They are asking for help? When you see anyone in distress, who amkes that person a helper? Its no different with human diseased spirits. You see, its called compassion.

Generally its a shaman/priestly figure.

But in many parts of the world, such folk are hard to find, these days.

There may be more shamans around than you think. There's one who lives in my street! From what I understand, it's not so much a moral choice for the shaman, as a compulsion: there can be physical symptoms for the shaman until such time as they have accepted their shamanic role and been initiated, and after that until a given duty has been performed, e.g. the spirit has been moved on. If the shamanic belief is correct that their role is to help maintain the balance/flow of the universe, then they are actively taking positive steps.

The shaman I know is genuinely horrified at the idea that ghost hunters make no attempt to help any spirits they encounter to move on, and is still more perturbed by the idea of commercialised ghost hunts, where presumably the incentive is to keep any spirits that might be present firmly in that location, lest the golden goose be, um, moved on. I have no reason to suppose this shaman is an outlier in this regard.

 

[escargot]

There may be more shamans around than you think. There's one who lives in my street! From what I understand, it's not so much a moral choice for the shaman, as a compulsion: there can be physical symptoms for the shaman until such time as they have accepted their shamanic role and been initiated, and after that until a given duty has been performed, e.g. the spirit has been moved on. If the shamanic belief is correct that their role is to help maintain the balance/flow of the universe, then they are actively taking positive steps.

The shaman I know is genuinely horrified at the idea that ghost hunters make no attempt to help any spirits they encounter to move on, and is still more perturbed by the idea of commercialised ghost hunts, where presumably the incentive is to keep any spirits that might be present firmly in that location, lest the golden goose be, um, moved on. I have no reason to suppose this shaman is an outlier in this regard.

We need to know ALL about this shaman, please.

Trivialities like name/address not necessary, but nationality/ethnicity, an idea of their religion and ideally some examples of their activities would be helpful.

 

[Krepostnoi]

We need to know ALL about this shaman, please.

Trivialities like name/address not necessary, but nationality/ethnicity, an idea of their religion and ideally some examples of their activities would be helpful.

I'll have to talk to them and find out whether they'd be comfortable with me sharing this, even if anonymously.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I dunno. The constructs of heaven, hell, or being earthbound = purgatory, just seems too christian to me and I'm not a christian, so can't logically believe in it. (Even though I bypass logic enough to "believe" there is such a thing as ghosts - go figure).

Maybe they're meant to be here. Maybe they're not. Maybe it doesn't even matter. I think the full body apparition I saw was some sort of stone tape thing/echo/timey wimey thing, but not "supernatural" as such.

But no, if I don't believe in the Middle Eastern (or any culture's) concepts of "heaven" or "hell" - nor even in Valhalla or Niflheim which at least seem more fun - (well niflheim less so but you know I'm used to fog here on the Vale of York so it wouldn't be too bad) then I can't really care less about moving spirits on... As they are already still on their own timeline, not mine. Or they'd be dressed more fashionably.

ETA: It's like when people are pagans then go on about "demons". That's a christian construct so it can't be true. Or when christians call pagans "devil worshippers" but surely if you're a satanist, you're just another form of christian as that's accepting that Satan isn't fictional, right? I mean, I accept that supernatural/preternatural things happen in the world but I don't think "trapped souls" is a feasible explanation.

 

[escargot]

I'll have to talk to them and find out whether they'd be comfortable with me sharing this, even if anonymously.

Of course.

We can read about shamans but even a tiny bit of knowledge from a real one would be just wonderful.

Just what you've already shared, that they have this role thrust upon them rather than seeking it out, was new to me.

 

[escargot]

I dunno. The constructs of heaven, hell, or being earthbound = purgatory, just seems too christian to me and I'm not a christian, so can't logically believe in it. (Even though I bypass logic enough to "believe" there is such a thing as ghosts - go figure).

Maybe they're meant to be here. Maybe they're not. Maybe it doesn't even matter. I think the full body apparition I saw was some sort of stone tape thing/echo/timey wimey thing, but not "supernatural" as such.

But no, if I don't believe in the Middle Eastern (or any culture's) concepts of "heaven" or "hell" - nor even in Valhalla or Niflheim which at least seem more fun - (well niflheim less so but you know I'm used to fog here on the Vale of York so it wouldn't be too bad) then I can't really care less about moving spirits on... As they are already still on their own timeline, not mine. Or they'd be dressed more fashionably.

ETA: It's like when people are pagans then go on about "demons". That's a christian construct so it can't be true. Or when christians call pagans "devil worshippers" but surely if you're a satanist, you're just another form of christian as that's accepting that Satan isn't fictional, right?

Organised religion is about control. (Disorganised religion is superstition.)
For control to work, religions need to instil the fear of punishment. Hell and Purgatory fit the bill. Nice work.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

....

There is yet another question we should be asking.
Should we be allowing haunted locations to remain intact, or should we be destroying, old, abandoned, run down, haunted factories, hospitals, and houses? Where is our moral compass on this? Are we inadvertently creating too many portals, and gateways in all of this? I would love your comments , or questions.
Maybe we can find solutions to these questions together.

Thank you.

As for letting locations stay intact, again, I think it doesn't matter. As I posted elsewhere, one of my kids lives in what seems to be a fairly heavily (on and off) "haunted" flat which is actually pretty well a newbuild. But it's over the site of a hospital where maybe thousands of people died over decades, and his particular bit is over what had been the children's ward/wing. Much of the stuff that happens in his flat does seem to have a mischievous, childlike quality to it and they've heard what sounds like kids running about and laughing in the hallway inside their flat, to back that up.

Ditto a building at my husband's workplace which was built over the site of... nothing. A corner of a field, so far as we all know. All sorts of things have been seen and heard there and I had my own experience.

In other words, tearing a building down would likely make no difference.

My own childhood house was a real patchwork of a house - 18th, 19th and 20thc parts of it and, it turned out, was built over a lost Roman road (and the associated Roman burials). Things we saw and heard were consistent with the house as it had once been. (The ghost that two of us saw was in the room with us but several feet in the air, which I later found out had been the original floor level til my dad remodelled the back of the house before I was born). Another time it was heard near but not at the front door, by two independent witnesses on two different levels of the house. Wasn't til several years later, house had pebbledashing removed that had been on it since before my grandad moved in, around 1940, and there was the lintel for an original long lost front door none of us had ever known had existed - just off to the side of the current door, and where the witnesses had heard furious knocking and shouting from a door that none of us knew had ever existed. If they'll still appear at floor levels that no longer exist or at doors that no longer exist, then I don't think the actual structure is particularly important. Knock that house down, that thing would still be there. So in a sense, there are no portals as these things are in a parallel time arc..?

 

[Tunn11]

Doesn't Sir pTerry's DEATH when asked by one of the characters: "What comes next?" indicate that it is to do with what the character believes will come next?
If someone believes they will be reincarnated they are; if they are expecting some horrible punishment in Hell or to remain Earthbound that's what they get.
Still wouldn't answer the question about helping an Earthbound spirit. Do they expect to be helped or not?

 

[Stormkhan]

I dunno. The constructs of heaven, hell, or being earthbound = purgatory, just seems too christian to me and I'm not a christian, so can't logically believe in it. (Even though I bypass logic enough to "believe" there is such a thing as ghosts - go figure).

This is what makes me uncomfortable with the original question.
It's a big assumption that the Christian ghost-hunter is to 'do what's best' for the spirit and to move them on; are they privy to God's plan for us? Are ghosts a Christian artifact for them to decide what do with? What about the wishes of non-Christian investigators? "We're Christian so this is what we should do" seems unpleasant. What if the ghosts weren't/aren't Christian.
So many assumptions and self-imposed authority.
Seems to me that where exorcists claim to dismiss demons, these so-called 'hunters' are claiming the right to dismiss ghosts.

 

[Krepostnoi]

Of course.

We can read about shamans but even a tiny bit of knowledge from a real one would be just wonderful.

Just what you've already shared, that they have this role thrust upon them rather than seeking it out, was new to me.

Local shaman is back from a trip abroad: CPD, which sounds incongruous to my ears in this context, with a highly thought-of practitioner who served apprenticeships in a variety of traditions. We talked, with a view to me sharing the fruits of the conversation here. The individual in question is also quite intellectual, and was somewhat puzzled that their input might be sought when there are plenty of books on the subject. Titles were mentioned, although I didn't note them down. I will be able to pursue these if there is interest.

Anyway, one of the first points that arose is that  shaman is a contested term. Folks in North America tend to prefer that that title be reserved for people with First Nations heritage, who've learnt the business in the traditional way: handed down from the previous generation in an unbroken chain. Folks like this prefer the term shamanic practitioner for people outwith this category.

Local shaman is resistant to this idea. Implicitly, they seem to believe it's quite a patronising outsider view which fails to take account of changes within First Nations experience over time. Explicitly, as someone from the Former Soviet Union, they were quite aggrieved at the ignorance this preference reveals about what happened to the shamans of First Nations peoples on the territory of the Russian Empire in the aftermath of the Bolshevik coup. There was no way that traditions could be preserved and passed down when the 1920s saw the physical extermination of most practitioners in that area, with any survivors being driven underground. To paraphrase my understanding, the lost knowledge from the more Eastern parts of Russia is being painstakingly recreated, in a perforce fragmentary manner.

That said, local shaman maintains that any such trappings are just that: trappings. A skilled practitioner can practice without any props. They described once walking on a beach which had seen much marine life beached and killed during stormy conditions, and helping to release any trapped animal spirits. All internal: their walking companion was oblivious to the work being done.

This is not to say that there is no value to prop and ritual: these can help the practitioner draw a clear line between work and not-work, e.g. by something as simple as lighting a candle at the start and extinguishing it at the end to explicitly close the space. They can also help any petitioner: unusual sights, sounds and smells can help free the latter from whatever position they may be stuck in. As we were discussing this, I was strongly put in mind of Pratchett's idea of Boffo, although I thought it diplomatic not to raise the parallel.

Ultimately, as I understand it, this is what shamanic practice comes down to for this particular individual: the restoration of balance to the world, allowing stuck energy to flow once more. They were aghast at the notion of not trying to help trapped spirits move on. As they put it, would you not pick up a piece of litter, or a child who had fallen over? In a similar way, (again, as I understood it), those with the gift simply perceive what needs to be done, and do it, to the extent of their capability.

That's already an essay in itself. There may be more to follow as I piece the conversation back together. I didn't take notes at the time.

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

First Nations peoples on the territory of the Russian Empire in the aftermath of the Bolshevik coup

I happen to know a little about this, my dad did an Ancestry DNA test a few years ago that showed Native American ancestry, specifically his Y-DNA is Q, which has its origins in what is now SIberia before migrating through Alaska, northern Canada and into the United States all the way to South America.

So if your friend is First Nation Russian, he can use Shamanic Practitioner, he's the grandaddy to many tribes in the Americas.

 

[Krepostnoi]

I happen to know a little about this, my dad did an Ancestry DNA test a few years ago that showed Native American ancestry, specifically his Y-DNA is Q, which has its origins in what is now SIberia before migrating through Alaska, northern Canada and into the United States all the way to South America.

So if your friend is First Nation Russian, he can use Shamanic Practitioner, he's the grandaddy to many tribes in the Americas.

My informant is entirely comfortable with using the term shaman as a self-descriptor. They are aware of the debate, but reject the basic premise.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

This is what makes me uncomfortable with the original question.
It's a big assumption that the Christian ghost-hunter is to 'do what's best' for the spirit and to move them on; are they privy to God's plan for us? Are ghosts a Christian artifact for them to decide what do with? What about the wishes of non-Christian investigators? "We're Christian so this is what we should do" seems unpleasant. What if the ghosts weren't/aren't Christian.
So many assumptions and self-imposed authority.
Seems to me that where exorcists claim to dismiss demons, these so-called 'hunters' are claiming the right to dismiss ghosts.

Bang on, yes.

Nobody has the right to even try that, IMHO. The best you can do is protect yourself (esoterically). But if I hear words like "demon" to me, that's a religion I don't buy into so it wouldn't make sense to think there's some christian construct I could summon or banish, or that anyone or anything needs to "walk towards the light".

 

[Recycled1]

If you are actually able to communicate with the ghost, surely you need to ask it " Do you WANT to be helped to move on on?"
If it gives you a definite "NO" then leave it alone! If "Yes" then do your best to try.

p.s. Do ghosts still have "Free will?" Are they able to decide for themselves? Perhaps it's variable.