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Snuff Films?

Wintermute

I wasn't going to post onto this thread again but I just wanted to thank you for your kind words of support, especially as you appear to be a bloke!

Its good to hear there is someone who is also concerned about this stuff, and hasn't written me off as some Mary Whitehouse-style bigot (which I most certainly am not).

Cheers!
 
That "Absence of evidence" argument I've always found to be really stupid. And I am amazed you can hear scientists repeat it.

That Wonderland thing, I don't think there needs to have been any death's on there for the police men to have been deeply disturbed.
 
Xanatic said:
That "Absence of evidence" argument I've always found to be really stupid. And I am amazed you can hear scientists repeat it.

.
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And anyone who mentions Occam Razor in their sig should be ashamed of themselves for repeating it ;) unless the sig is a delibrate windup.
The simplest explantion is normally the right one. ie. Not one single police force in the world has reported finding a snuff film, so we can either conclude:
a) that all police forces are locked in a global conspiracy to protect their snuff-film making masters
or b) there are no real snuff films
 
1. Once upon a time, the locals told visitors about a great hairy man-beast that lived in the area, but the visitors hadn't seen it for themselves, and therefore it didn't exist - until the end of the 19th century, when the lowland gorilla was 'discovered'. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - unless, of course, lowland gorillas didn't exist until then.

2. Agreed, the simplest explanation is normally the right one.... but not always, and without 'proof', I won't 'believe' anything, merely have a current point of view.

3. My own current point of view is there are, most probably, no 'real' snuff films (at least not on general release.....what the weirdos get up to in private is anyone's guess.....)


Better? :D
 
Well, I am sure someone will be able to warp quantum mechanics to be able to mean gorillas don't exist unless seen by British explorers.

That sentence is just usually used by people trying to tell you that they are right, even if the evidence doesn't support them. I agree that in the past situation it would have been worthwhile to look for gorillas. But saying that they were definitely there would have been a mistake.
 
Not one single police force in the world has reported finding a snuff film, so we can either conclude: a) that all police forces are locked in a global conspiracy to protect their snuff-film making masters or b) there are no real snuff films
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What touching faith in the forces of Laura Norder!

Would you apply the same argument to ABC's, for example?
 
Points indicating that Snuff may exist
Killers have filmed, videotaped, photographed and audio recorded their victims.
Films for extreme Sadomasochistic persons are available with extreme detail.
The Michael Sams group of paedophiles distributed photographs of their victims (Unknown if they were dead or harmed)
Circulation of the Sams photographs were restricted to the "in" group of people known to personally participate in paedophile activities

Points against
No real Snuff ever reported by police forces
Would killers distribute (as opposed to keep) evidence of their guilt?
The market, if there is one would be very small.

Own opinion they exist but not for distribution.
 
not him again

I won't try to defend my point of view again even though I am concerned about the posibility of snuff movies and don't wish to lable anyone a censor (I offer my apologies for apearing to do this.)

However I think that there is interesting things to be said about snuff as urban myth. Let's just say for a minute that they are myth and then ask what this say's about our culture.

Is it posable that the 'myth, of snuff shows a desire to see women as victims: as helpless little things that get reped and killed for entertainment? I would put forward the theory that the 'snuff myth' is an extrem and disquiting reaction to feminism. The circulating of the idea of women as week beings needing protection by the powers that be (male in the case of the police, intelectual in the case of the theorists) surly takes away what power feminism gave to the individual. The individual now no longer has power over their own life, the right to chose for themselfs, but is insted in need of protection by a shadowy group who will exploit their weekneses. It's similer to the zero tolerence campaigns ran here in Scotland that protrayed victims of domestic abuse solely as women and perpetrators as men. This may well be the dominent patern within this form of abuse but women, within this form of representation, become victims who will only be helped by the (overwelmingly male) media and male) police.

This myth of snuff does the same thing. Therefore it is, in some ways, as disquiting as the posability of snuff weither real or staged.

The oter posability is that the myth is an exclusavly male hetrosexual one that has been unwisly taken up by the feminist movement that grows out of male agresion. Or to put it another way: men may get off on some leval or other on the posability of the abject humiliation and violation (to the point of murder) of women.

Well I can't help being contentious.
 
Interesting ideas, James, but I wonder if such ULs as Snuff Movies
are spontaneous sparks from the collective bad conscience so much as
deliberately sponsored tales. Naming an author might be difficult but
the US religious Right is a teeming womb of conspiracy-theories and
scare-stories.

I do share the feeling, expressed by some on this thread, that when we
see some of the things people will do for "pleasure", snuff movies
seem very little worse. But I think Intaglio is right to stress that the
Snuff Movies myth is not about movies themselves but about markets.

And if your motive is money, then the urge to fake must surely override
any urge to kill. :(
 
Well, the snuff movies don't have to be women being killed does it? It could also be men.
 
In fact all the lurid UL's I have ever heard about snuff films never mention women, just men, and more distrubingly and more often, children.
 
And if your motive is money, then the urge to fake must surely override any urge to kill
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But if your motives are a combination of greed and sexual psychopathology?

The annals of 'normal' crime show that criminals (e.g. 'Yardies' certain S. American Cocaine Cartels, the Krays) are prepared to use extreme violence even when its not strictly in their 'business' interests.
 
James Whitehead said:
And if your motive is money, then the urge to fake must surely override any urge to kill. :(
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Sadly there are many places on the planet where it would be cheaper to kill than to fake.
 
I think that was the strap-line, more or less, of one of the earliest
alleged snuff movies:

"Filmed in South America, where life is cheap" or words to that effect.

It was a fake.

I think you are describing a strange mixture of pathologies in
imagining a psycho-killer who is also a wizard at selling a
difficult genre to a hard-to-reach diaspora of enthusiasts.

I think the networking skills of the entrepreneur and the
alienated status of the serial killer are unlikely inhabitants of the
same body.

It isn't that I have a very elevated view of Human Nature but
these "skills" seem mutually exclusive.

Now who wants to buy my home movie of decapitated mackerel
threshing on the draining board? Cheap. :p
 
I think you are describing a strange mixture of pathologies in imagining a psycho-killer who is also a wizard at selling a difficult genre to a hard-to-reach diaspora of enthusiasts
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Manson was a marketing and PR genius in his own twisted way.

I'm not sure that the diaspora is that hard-to-reach, if you're "that way", or do your research. Whether anyone would want to risk the physical dangers and moral pollution involved is a different question. I do know that infiltrating dog-fighters, neo-nazis, and other psycho groups seems to be more straightforward than you'd imagine - if you've got the bottle and the acting ability.

As to whether its a difficult genre, my argument is that one of the effects of the Net has been to make truly appalling porn easily available, and apparently (among some), socially acceptable. I'm quite prepared to believe that a minority 'out there' would want to go on to 'the next level' and actively seek out snuff material if it were available.

I think the networking skills of the entrepreneur and the alienated status of the serial killer are unlikely inhabitants of the
same body.
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Again, I'd cite Manson.
 
Well maybe, Wintermute. I don't think snuff movies are impossible
but until someone produces evidence of their existence, it would be
best to avoid having nightmares about them.

I agree with you about the dismaying availability of dehumanizing
and degrading porn. I remember trawling through that sewer out
of morbid curiosity when the Internet was new to me. :cross eye
 
wintermute said:
Again, I'd cite Manson.
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But Manson didn't actually do any killing. Sure, he was a psycho, but he can be compared to Bin Laden - he just said "Off the pigs" (to paraphrase quite a lot) and let his followers work out what that was supposed to mean. And he wasn't all that media-savvy; the idea of filming any of his gang's exploits (for any purpose) never seemed to occur to him.
 
the monster in the closet

James Whitehead said:
but until someone produces evidence of their existence, it would be
best to avoid having nightmares about them.

I agree with you about the dismaying availability of dehumanizing
and degrading porn. I remember trawling through that sewer out
of morbid curiosity when the Internet was new to me. :cross eye
Click to expand...

I think that the panic about snuff is an example of the monster in the closet syndrom.

It can't be proved to exist but it is still discused endlesly. Surly we should be more concerned with what you called 'dehumanising and degrading porn' as we can prove that exists?

Insted we fill four pages with a discusion of a genera we can not prove.
 
This is the Fortean Times Message Board, of course we talk about monsters in the closet, urban legends and that which is unprovable.

What I've gained from this is that one day this monster will be in the closet. There is so much variety in human cruelty and stupidity that one day a murderer will post his exploits on the net or an entrepreneur will sell this material. When that happens we must be prepared to accept that it has happened and not that it is just special effects or urban legend.

Charles Fort gives the idea that you must not discount a possibilty, what may have been true in the past is not necessarily always true.
 
Re: the monster in the closet

jamesveldon said:
It can't be proved to exist but it is still discused endlesly...Insted we fill four pages with a discusion of a genera we can not prove.
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Well okay but doesn't that qualification cover most of the postings on this mb and the contents of our favourite magazine.
 
It can't be proved to exist but it is still discused endlesly
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Surely the point is that the evidence is ambiguous, and discussing it in a forum like this (hopefully) allows people to make a more informed decision as to how they regard that evidence.

As others have said, that's one of the functions of this MB.

Besides, what can we constructively do about the existence of porn 'out there'?
 
James Whitehead said:
I think that was the strap-line, more or less, of one of the earliest alleged snuff movies::p
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That may be so James but it doesn’t mean this is not a legitimate point. An individual with no conscience, a victim to hand and knowledge he was going to get away with would always find it a lot cheaper to shoot someone in the head for real than to go to the bother of faking it. Admittedly these are pretty difficult criteria to meet but I don’t doubt there are a few bleak old corners in this world where they might be applied.
I think you are describing a strange mixture of pathologies in imagining a psycho-killer who is also a wizard at selling a difficult genre to a hard-to-reach diaspora of enthusiasts... I think the networking skills of the entrepreneur and the alienated status of the serial killer are unlikely inhabitants of the same body. :p
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I’m glad wintermute picked up on this one as well. James rather covers his bases by referring to both psycho-killers and serial-killers. The former is a fairly generic description, the latter more specific. Agreed, a serial-killer in the classic, alienated, lonely, underachiever mode you appear to be referring to would probably be incapable of marketing snuff-movies but then I’m not sure anyone has suggested that this has to be the case.

If we are going to go with the more vague “psycho-killer” label then frankly I think we would be making an incredible and dangerous generalisation. Anyone involved in the making and selling of snuff would have to be chronically sociopathic but the history of organised-crime is full of men who combined considerable, sometimes astonishing, business acumen with severe sociopathic behaviour. And why stop at the mobs - armies, empires and governments have on occasion been run efficiently by murderers, psychopaths and assorted headcases of every hue. I wish I could be as confident regarding human nature and its exclusivities.

I take issue with some of the reasoning but in general I would have to say that I agree that there is little or no actual physical evidence to support the theory that snuff-movies exist as a commercial entity. However being pragmatic rather than cynical I have to say that I would be extremely uneasy consigning this to Snopes without question. And sadly I suspect that if they do not exist it is for practical and economic reasons rather than ones of conscience and ethics.

Apologies to those of you who don't like conjecture.
 
The Express today has a small article about the re-release of 80s video nasty, "Snuff".

They repeat the preposterous claim that a killing that takes place in the film (apparently based on the Charles Manson murders), might have been real!

If the media will propagate this crap......
 
Again this is just guesswork, but refering to points raised in earlier posts, and borrowing from the film 8mm (i know dragging a hollywood film into a serious discussion isn't the best idea, but it did raise some points that bear discussion)

What if a person (as in the film) was in a seat of wealth and seemingly inscrutible moralty, trust and power (I'm refering to a world leader/politician) someone who would know which strings to pull to keep themselves off most authorities radars. Was perverted enough to fund this kind of film, its intended audience would only be one person, themselves, i think it would be possible (easy even) to pull this off. They themselves would not need to carry out the act, and marketing is not an issue as they don't intend to distribute the film outside their own collection, the film would however exist. and would have been created for thr purpose of viewing pleasure, rather than the need to kill.

I agree that until a snuff film is found and verified, that they will remain a UL. But i also have to agree that its it such a short hop from films that are available that it would be naive of us to rule out their existence completely.

And adressing the point of why the UL exists in ther first place, it may show a general mistrust in the direction of modern life, that our lives and privacy have become so invaded or cheapened (CCTV, reality TV) that we all secretly fear that its only a matter of time before a loss of life (male, female, animal) is an accepted form of entertaiment shrink wrapped and placed on the shelves of your local blockbuster. Fear is the source of many UL's and i would say it seems the most likely in this case.

.... end of what if note: not facts, just opinions.
 
kiel said:
And adressing the point of why the UL exists in ther first place, it may show a general mistrust in the direction of modern life, that our lives and privacy have become so invaded or cheapened (CCTV, reality TV) that we all secretly fear that its only a matter of time before a loss of life (male, female, animal) is an accepted form of entertaiment shrink wrapped and placed on the shelves of your local blockbuster. Fear is the source of many UL's and i would say it seems the most likely in this case.

.... end of what if note: not facts, just opinions.
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animal life3 has already been sacrificed.

See Apacalips Now.
 
Annasdottir said:
But Manson didn't actually do any killing. Sure, he was a psycho, but he can be compared to Bin Laden - he just said "Off the pigs" (to paraphrase quite a lot) and let his followers work out what that was supposed to mean. And he wasn't all that media-savvy; the idea of filming any of his gang's exploits (for any purpose) never seemed to occur to him.
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Actually, IIRC, according to Ed Sanders' book The Family (IMO probably the only reliable study of Manson and the Tate-LaBianca murders largely because SFAIK it's the only one that reveals a sad twisted little ned rather than the 'hippy antiChrist incarnate' of other, more sensationalist, works) there were a lot of unsubstantiated rumours going around the LA hippy scene to the effect that Manson and his people may have been filming murders in the months prior to the Sharon Tate killing.
 
Snuff movies undoubtedly exist IMO. Take serial killers. Aren't they prone to taking a trophy of each victim? In some instances the trophy could come in the form of their death, on film.

Everything else imaginable has appeared on celluloid for entertainment. Why not murder/death? I think the fact that no snuff film has ever been recognised by the authorities is not proof that they don't exist. Unless one is there to smell the blood and take the pulse of the victim, it's impossible to tell if it was gory art or sick reality. I suppose really, no police force has ever been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a certain film wasn't snuff. Another supposed aspect of serial killers - they like to rub people's noses in their crimes. Maybe one, somewhere has done just that and distributed his crimes on video, cocking a snook at society and justice.
A colleague of mine once saw the Last House on the Left and she's convinced it's a snuff movie. I havent seen it but my boyfriend has and thinks it's a ludicrous notion. Without wishing to libel the film makers, neither my colleague nor my boyfiend know for sure.
 
Hayzee Comet said:
Snuff movies undoubtedly exist IMO. Take serial killers. Aren't they prone to taking a trophy of each victim? In some instances the trophy could come in the form of their death, on film.

Everything else imaginable has appeared on celluloid for entertainment. Why not murder/death? I think the fact that no snuff film has ever been recognised by the authorities is not proof that they don't exist. Unless one is there to smell the blood and take the pulse of the victim, it's impossible to tell if it was gory art or sick reality. I suppose really, no police force has ever been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a certain film wasn't snuff. Another suposed aspect of serial killers - they like to rub people's noses in their crimes. Maybe one, somewhere has done just that and distributed his crimes on video, cocking a snook and society and justice.
A colleague of mine once saw the Last House on the Left and she's convinced it's a snuff movie. I havent seen it but my boyfriend has and thinks it's a ludicrous notion. Without wishing to libel the film makers, neither my colleague nor my boyfiend know for sure.
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Last house on the left, while it may not be a great movie, is a peice of art. It's a horror movie. You may as well say that Die Hard's a snuff movie, how meny people die in that?

(Last House is also the dabue of...it's either Carpenter or Craven, hardly snuff.)

And on the rest of your post: as I said before there is no proof that a movie has been a snuff movie and I'm sure the police are better placed to reserch this than we are.
 
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