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The Absence Of Evidence

gattino said:
Well you'd be talking to yourself because the scenario I asked you to consider was of you as the witness not his challenger.
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yeah funny. ok if someone said it to me...you know what i meant! i didn't feel the need to state the bleeding obvious!
carry on trying to be clever or attempt an adult discussion? your choice my friend-either one suits me:)
 
I've no idea what you're talking about. You've misunderstood me somewhere. {edit - you mean the talking to yourself line? irresistible but hardly a major put down}

I've just repeated the question in different way but your still answering from the perspective of the "person who wasn't there". I'll try again - if you experienced something extraordinary, and I challenged you on it, do you think you have any obligation to prove it to me or not?

Would winning me over to your new view of reality be something you should concern yourself with?
 
I was responding to this:
gattino said:
Suppose YOU saw the loch ness monster. Not a shadow or a shape but a big dinosaur like creature right in front of you emerging from the loch. And you tell me about it. And I say no you didn't
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if I were you the first thing I would ask is what I suggested in post #29... Why didn't you pose that question?
If I REALLY did see the loch ness monster. Not a shadow or a shape but a big dinosaur like creature right in front of me; there would be no way I'd tell the world about it for these reasons:
gattino said:
And I say no you didn't..or rather more politely suggest you were mistaken, and I appeal to issues with your eyesight, the light, expectations, a need for attention, psychological distress, escaped elephants from a travelling circus, or ultimately thatyou're just plain making it up.
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personally I'd feel no reason to try & convince you, or anyone else.. it would be pointless
 
You mean fear of being branded or accused in that way?

If that's what you mean then you've perhaps found one reason why you don't hear the conclusive evidence for these kind of things that you've hungered for. Perhaps the most sober and compelling witnesses have exactly the same concerns so keep quiet too.

A slight aside but very relevant...the question of "material" evidence beyond people's mere claims. I've reported on a particular non paranormal experience of mine on here a few times over the years but I'll do it again to underline the point that resistance to being fooled or to accepting something improbable renders all evidence moot.

A number of years ago on a train back from Edinburgh I saw a comic photo opportunity and posted the result first on facebook and a couple of times more elsewhere. Its since escaped into the internet at large. But any time I personally posted it I'd get the same reaction - that it was too good to be true and I therefore obviously faked it. Where it became really interesting to me was that on one occasion someone talking with the authority and technical language of a minor expert analysed disturbances in the pigmentation to confirm my villainous photo shopping. Others then cheerfully mocked me for being "owned" and I was told "nice try". It was quite extraordinary to witness. The desire to disbelieve is far more powerful than its opposite. To be the "smart" one who wasn#'t fooled like the rest of hte gullible plebs is an irresistible ambition. Of course I hadn't photoshopped the picture at all..but all it takes is someone to pretend to know what they're talking about, or sound like they have scientific insight, and people will blindly accept it. And remember this was all about a photo of woman holding up an unfortunate newspaper picture....so what chance would material photographic evidence of a ufo, ghost or lake monster have? There may be many thousands of evidential photographs of these things, but they're worthless - not because they've been necessarily faked but because they will always be accused of being fake. Which brings me back to my point that there is no lack of evidence, there is just a lack of personal satisfaction - or otherwise - with evidence, and no way round that bar experience.

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gattino said:
Which brings me back to my point that there is no lack of evidence,
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I never said there was.............

Yep I totally agree with your above post & this is why asking for a photo/ video (in your loch ness scenario as an example) doesn't mean much these days due to CGI.

But=== a photo or video is 'proof of the claim', therefore there's solid data to work with in order to determine what was captured as opposed to someone just telling you they see something.

Your picture is a good example of this, which IMO is bloody brilliant & obviously not faked:rollingw:
 
I find it difficult to square the ubiquity of camera phones with the lack of photos and videos of paranormal events. I guess the world is less fantastical than I had hoped.
 
jimv1 said:
Why are you bringing just UFOs into this? You've already limited your parameters right there.
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Well...notdej is usually referring to ufos when this comes up......no other reason than that.
 
Hmm...the camera phone thing is interesting in that there are so many of these around you'd think that we would have more picture evidence of the paranormal and or ufos by now....or am I missing something obvious.

?
 
Xanatic* said:
I find it difficult to square the ubiquity of camera phones with the lack of photos and videos of paranormal events.
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The logic is simple IMO:

in the past people claimed this, that & the other without being expected to produce a picture because most people didn't walk around with a camera around their necks.

In this day & age if you claim to see (for example) something strange in the sky; one would expect at least a picture because everyone has a camera on them.

You'd probably be called stupid for not doing so therefore less made up stories... I just say it as I see it.
 
Notdej, you might interested to know that there does seem to be statistically significant evidence for extrasensory perception (that is, people guessing at zener cards or photos or environments or videos etc). It's not a big effect over chance. But it does seem to be there. And that's taking into account fraud and unreported null studies. There are criticisms about the methods that can be made, it's true. But parapsychologists have to work ten times harder to get their evidence accepted by other scientists. Or a million times harder perhaps. You could put the evidence in front of people and they will not accept it because they don't want to believe it's right. (I mean it isn't PROOF of esp, but it is a consistent effect of something, even if it it's not paranormal).

You might want to look into it. I recommend
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introducti...r=8-1&keywords=introduction+to+parapsychology
or
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Entangled-...157246&sr=1-6&keywords=quantum+parapsychology

If you're looking for scientific, mathematical proof then it won't be much use looking at anecdotes of ufos on the internet, you've got to look at scientifically set up experiments. I guess.

Just because the loch ness monster might not exist, that doesn't mean there's nothing behind other fortean things like fish falls and even ghosts. You can't throw everything out just because one thing's piffle. I reckon that's why a lot of us are on this messageboard. We're keeping the faith and we're interested in weird things.

Even if the weird things are non-paranormal, it's very interesting from a sociological / psychological point of view - what do people experience, is it cross-cultural, why might they be experiencing it?

There's no need to become a close-minded skeptic of everything. The world's an amazing place. You don't have to believe everything to find it interesting!

best of luck
 
IMG_0194.JPG

This is a very strange image captured by Kline-tv weather cam for over an hour.This was shut down quickly as only 10 min.was ever released and I doubt that you can find on the net.This photo when enhanced showed a red line coming out of the right side.
The station never released the video the public and refused any interviews.The weather man who was eager to be interviewed suddenly changed 2 cell phone numbers so he couldn't be contacted.I called the station and tried to cut through the red tape to which I was thwarted by the receptionist and was rudely told not to call.
Well a lot more to this but I share it for your observations .
I have seen a lot of craft but nothing compares to this,and me as well as a lot of other folks tried to determine it was a hoax,but it was not.
 
Altria said:
View attachment 5723
This is a very strange image captured by Kline-tv weather cam for over an hour. ...
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Isn't that the same KLKN Towercam weirdness shown and discussed by the weatherman in this September 2013 video?


The weatherman suggests it's a refraction artifact from the remote camera's protective dome, which doesn't necessarily correlate with his earlier statement / demonstration that the light source would seem to be very far away..
 
Altria said:
This was shut down quickly as only 10 min.was ever released and I doubt that you can find on the net
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EnolaGaia-- you beat me to it...took me about 4 seconds to find it
 
Yes that's him but that's a prepared clip,where is the first clip?The video was1 hour yet in this he claims its 45 min.let the video speak for itself.
 
What I would like to ask of any member as I am a realist and not a faith based believer in anything,find a photo or video of this same type of object,or even the entire video of the event let's say 45 min instead of an hour.somethig was in that video that someone didn't want the public to see.
This was not an armchair case for me as I was involved to a degree ,trying to get the video released as we had someone to examine the tape.Now I would like to know why the stonewall,Mufon was alledged to have the video,but still they stonewalled,now why is that.
 
notdej said:
how do you know for sure it was 1 hour?
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Sean the weatherman told us,the camera was just routinely running and recorded this as Sean said 1 hour and it was stationary,having a certain training in heavenly bodies and phenomena,he claimed he never encountered anything remotely like this.We had the the camera make and model,but my file was lost on this case,easy enough out but we had thought this had to be a camera flaw,but the station said no and an independent told me it wasn't as well.See I pay for second and third professional opinions.Only way you can uncover truth,you certainly can't rely on the Internet.
But this case really got me excited,we had people traveling just to interview Sean after we had made an appointment to do so.When all of a sudden it was all shut down I suspect they told Sean if he did it he would be fired but that's speculation on my part.
 
In the sphere of physics, physical and statistical evidence is up to us. If there is a good Italian speaking user I can help me to bring some evidence even on this board. A book came out in my country entitled "The evidence of alien abductions".

The most interesting part is that of alien implants embedded in the bodies of the alleged adductors. These in hypnosis reminded the alien that inserted the microchips in their body (from the nostril for example) then these artifacts were actually found, with x-rays, chromatic axial timing, magnetic resonance or other.

In these pages, both slabs and official medical reports of the various hospitals are presented. Very interesting items for those looking for physical evidence. To understand the phenomenon must be studied to the witness, the alien technology is so advanced that have physical evidence, such as pieces of UFO is very rare. Waiting for a first contact is useless, they will not, they want to remain hidden and are very good at doing it.

The era of traditional ufo is over but it's time for intelligent people who want to understand things.
 
Always liked your post growl as they impart a certain sincerity in them.
I did want to add something to the question that Notdej asked about the length of the video.
Sean had give us the first 10 min of the video for examination but that station had decided to not release the remaining 50 min.no explanations.
 
Is that true, Growl? Have people really extracted alien microchips from people's bodies? Because aliens probably would have totally different technology to the stuff we have at this exact moment in history on earth. And if they're not microchips, but some sort of advanced technology, how did the investigators recognise it as such and not as just a bit of metal or something? And if it was 'advanced technology' whiy hasn't it been transferred to a secure military establishment a la Terminator?

If I could offer a book about UFO reports to Altria it'd be
J Allen Hynek's The UFO Experience: A scientific enquiry (1972) - have you read it? He was collating many many reports and analysed them to come up with the 'close encounters of the nth kind' system. He's a very rational man. If you want a scientific approach, you might like it.
 
Altria:

In the research you (and / or others) did on the KLKN incident, did you get any solid info on the location / altitude (above street level) / direction of aim for that Towercam?
 
Thank you for the reference Eponastill i respect Mr. Hynek and have a some good moments with him in which he shared some incredible photos of UFO,s.They have never been published,I don't know why and he just grinned and didn't answer.The photos are crystal clear and not the usual blurry ones.He pointed out a field around the craft in which he said was clearly electromagnetic in composition.I suspect the photos are copyrighted by whoever took them and he dosent have permission to publish without paying a fee,speculation on my part though.
 
He died in 1986? You met him before or after that?!
 
EnolaGaia said:
Altria:

In the research you (and / or others) did on the KLKN incident, did you get any solid info on the location / altitude (above street level) / direction of aim for that Towercam?
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Yes we had all that but my file is gone on it.This was brought to my attentions as I will finance a credible case if need be.We looked at everything trying to prove it was nothing out of the ordinary but damn we couldn't.We checked satellite locations at the time,weather anomalies such as volcano eruptions ,which can cause atmospheric anomalies that are mistaken for UFO,s.We looked at the camera which if I remember cost like $70,000.the
 
From what I understood the implants were not extracted, but only found (with relative medical diagnosis).

It should be said however that any object could be used by aliens by localization the subject, just enough to be alive, even the simple iron coated with a chitinous membrane of live cells would work ...

But it is difficult to explain, it has to do with Be alive and be dead ... In addition, in 90% of cases, microchips are built on earth, using the material already present on the planet, so the analysis of isotopes would not be useful. The important thing is this: in hypnosis the recollection of the memory, medical examination, acknowledgment and official documents of the hospital.

There are also testimonies from doctors who say they often find these artifacts, but not creating problems for the subject's health are not being warned. Doctors also prefer to remain anonymous when dealing with these issues.
 
Altria said:
I met him in the 70,s good grief
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Well that's pretty cool! Obviously it's not easy to tell how old you are on an internet forum.


Growl = Where would you recommend I look into this implanted artifacts business. Because I'm not mocking alien abduction, I do find the subject's analogies with fairy abductions really interesting.
 
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