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The Erosion of Christianity in Britain

St. Nicholas is often portrayed in red and white, with a beard.
 
H_James said:
St. Nicholas is often portrayed in red and white, with a beard.
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The big old santa in the red suit with the white trimmings, that's the one that's from coca cola and was painted by Haddon Sundblom back in 1931 for the coca cola company.
 
I thought there was a separate thread somewhere on the Coca-Cola making Santa go red. Urban legends maybe? Perhaps not.

I have to say think it's pretty weird to be offended by someone giving you a Christmas card, even if such card has a religious scene on it. What on earth is the problem?
 
Quake42 said:
I have to say think it's pretty weird to be offended by someone giving you a Christmas card, even if such card has a religious scene on it. What on earth is the problem?
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Well, the person who said that, I'm fairly certain explained their problem with it. (page 2, tenth post down)
 
ghostdog19 said:
H_James said:
St. Nicholas is often portrayed in red and white, with a beard.
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The big old santa in the red suit with the white trimmings, that's the one that's from coca cola and was painted by Haddon Sundblom back in 1931 for the coca cola company.
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Thanks for that!
You beat me to it - I was going to look for that to back up my earlier post.
Anyway, I believe Coca-Cola changed the colour to red because the original colour didn't go with their marketing.
I think the original colour was green.
 
Thankyou, Lizard!
My favourite theory as to why he's red and white is that he's a shaman, wearing a newly skinned animal inside-out. Ho ho ho!
 
_Lizard23_ said:
http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp
seems to think not .....
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Ah-ha! Well, I eat my humble hat. Very interesting article. Notably the greeting cards from the 1850's and the image of a rotund red suited santa riding a bicycle.
 
ghostdog19 said:
Quake42 said:
I have to say think it's pretty weird to be offended by someone giving you a Christmas card, even if such card has a religious scene on it. What on earth is the problem?
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Well, the person who said that, I'm fairly certain explained their problem with it. (page 2, tenth post down)
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And page three, seventh post down. When I say I'm offended I don't mean I'm boiling mad and ready to complain, just irritated because it seems to me that incorrect assumptions are being made about me.
It's that whole Christianity sweeping away paganism thing that annoys as well. It wasn't enough to destroy Europe's indigenous religion, they had to steal the feast days and spread nasty lies and misinformation about it. Now the man on the Clapham Omnibus thinks that the midwinter festival was always Christ's birthday, and thinks people who say otherwise are loonies, and that rankles. I can't help it, it just does! :)

EDIT I was childishly delighted to find that IKEA are selling tins of ginger biscuits with a green suited Santa on them.
 
"My brother overheard a woman on the bus say, as the bus passed a church with a Crib outside it 'O Lord! They bring religion into everything. Look---they're dragging it even into Christmas now!' "-CS Lewis ;) :D

IMVHO, I think (as an article posted on page one of this thread sort of suggested/implied) if the CoE types are genuinely more interested in seeing a revival of Christianity in the UK, rather than protecting their own power and privleges, then they should be in favor of England getting rid of the Anglican church as the State religion.
 
The whole point surely is, as I seem to remember posting this time last year, WHERE HAS OUR CULTURE GONE?? Half of us don't even know what our culture is! Who the hell is paid to think up these ridiculous PC rules?? *Takes another bite of her Dragon sausage sandwich*
Other countries have welcomed different cultures while keeping a grip on their own, why can't we?

I think we should welcome other beliefs but surely be able to choose to keep our own traditions in our own country. I'm happy enough for anyone from any country/religion/belief/planet living in Britain but why should we be expected to change our religion or traditions? Its crazy! Christmas is Christmas, if thats a celebration of winter, so be it. For me it's a very special time, always has been, always will be. But increasingly tradition (pagan, Christian, winter celebrations, whatever) has been taken out of it.

Take a look at the lights in Oxford Street, its been all about the latest Disney film for a few years now, advent calendars are the same, it's like its all being rapidly watered down, just so 'nobody' gets offended?! WTF?
For example, a few years ago you could choose between a religious theme advent calendar, a winter scene or a cartoon one. AS long as youre celebrating. You could walk into Woolworths or other high street store and see references to Jesus and/or wintertime. I couldn't find a Christian or winterscene Advent calendar ANYWHERE this year. It's Barbie, Disney, Chocolate company or nothing! So I have nothing :(

There seems to be no choice now, thats whats upsetting me.
In a few years we won't have a choice in xmas cards, it will be Disneys latest flash-in-the-pan CGI flick, or nothing. And I will be very, very offended.
 
For example, a few years ago you could choose between a religious theme advent calendar, a winter scene or a cartoon one. AS long as youre celebrating. You could walk into Woolworths or other high street store and see references to Jesus and/or wintertime. I couldn't find a Christian or winterscene Advent calendar ANYWHERE this year. It's Barbie, Disney, Chocolate company or nothing!
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Yeah the advent calendars thing is one of my pet peeves. Glad to see I'm not alone in that! I've always hated chocolate advent calendars anyway - I remember how excited I used to be as a small child wondering what the next day's picture would be and frankly a rubbish sweet just wouldn't have had the same magic to it. Looking in Woolies the other day I saw the following advent calendars:

Pirates of the Caribbean
Simpsons
Toy Story
Barbie

As you say, not a single one without chocolate and and not a single one with an even vaguely traditional/religious theme to it.

AND some of them even have 31 doors to open rather than 24!

However, there are some traditional ones around if you go to smaller shops. Cassandra, I have found a shop in North West London that sells a range of traditional advent calendars - let me know if you want the address and I'll pm you.
 
Unicef do nice cards, also the likes of Oxfam and Save The Children. You don't have to buy Little Mermaid and Lion King III (Simba meets Rocky Balboa) cards. I'm pretty sure Unicef do advent calendars, too.

I got my cards from the Kinderpostzegels lot, this year. ;)
 
Christian bookshops are also your friends. Cornerstone had calendars with a picture window AND a chocolate window seperately!
 
Quake42 said:
For example, a few years ago you could choose between a religious theme advent calendar, a winter scene or a cartoon one. AS long as youre celebrating. You could walk into Woolworths or other high street store and see references to Jesus and/or wintertime. I couldn't find a Christian or winterscene Advent calendar ANYWHERE this year. It's Barbie, Disney, Chocolate company or nothing!
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Yeah the advent calendars thing is one of my pet peeves. Glad to see I'm not alone in that! I've always hated chocolate advent calendars anyway - I remember how excited I used to be as a small child wondering what the next day's picture would be and frankly a rubbish sweet just wouldn't have had the same magic to it.
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I'm with you both on that one and completely agree. I noticed this year that absolutely none of the cards we bought (that you get in themed packs) have nativity themes in them. You used to find wise men in variety bundles, and it seems you don't even get them anymore and they were Zoroastrians!!!
 
Okay, now that it's December 2nd, I no longer feel like it's too early to be talking about Christmas. So a couple of important points I feel need to be made.

beakboo said:
It's that whole Christianity sweeping away paganism thing that annoys as well. It wasn't enough to destroy Europe's indigenous religion, they had to steal the feast days and spread nasty lies and misinformation about it. Now the man on the Clapham Omnibus thinks that the midwinter festival was always Christ's birthday, and thinks people who say otherwise are loonies, and that rankles. I can't help it, it just does! :)
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Except that's not what really happened.

Christmas was a move to unify Christians and Mithraists, and whilst initially this may have been a move to supplant sun worshipers, it was and has since then been marked by that of unity. Hence why so many Pagan aspects are retained. The trouble is a lot of people seem to forget that. In 320 CE, St. Augustine wrote:
"We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it,"
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which is basically saying 'hey, we're celebrating with you but for our own reasons.' Which would, I hope, give you a different perspective about those Christmas cards you get and what they actually mean. If you wish to call it Natalis Solis Invincti (Christmas by its former Mithras name) then hey, knock yourself out:) That's the only pagan date that Christianity takes, and it doesn't actually take it with the hostile intent that most pagans seem to prescribe to. They seem to forget that the wise men of the bible were Zoroastrians (Mithraism was an offshoot of Zoroastrianism).

Saturnalia is December 17th. I think the only thing Christianity borrowed from this was gift giving celebrations. And from Yule, which isn't Christmas either so you can tell the man on the Clapham Omnibus he's wrong, that's on 21st December, all they borrowed again was decorations basically (and ham and the Yule log). All in the spirit of unity. But it seems people want to be apart... hey, what can you do?
 
That's the only pagan date that Christianity takes
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Easter? Surely the timing and the emphasis on rebirth bears more than a passing resemblance to pagan celebrations of Spring and fertility?
 
Quake42 said:
That's the only pagan date that Christianity takes
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Easter? Surely the timing and the emphasis on rebirth bears more than a passing resemblance to pagan celebrations of Spring and fertility?
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I fear you have me out of context, I was referring (quite specifically I thought) to festivities around winter.

Spring on the other hand....
 
ghostdog19 said:
Christmas was a move to unify Christians and Mithraists, and whilst initially this may have been a move to supplant sun worshipers, it was and has since then been marked by that of unity. Hence why so many Pagan aspects are retained. The trouble is a lot of people seem to forget that.
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Well quite, the only reason we know all about the original aspects of the pagan celebrations is because they were kept. Unlike the complete whitewashing of the Christian message in favour of bowing before the Great God Consumerism.
 
ghostdog19 said:
Christmas was a move to unify Christians and Mithraists, and whilst initially this may have been a move to supplant sun worshipers, it was and has since then been marked by that of unity. Hence why so many Pagan aspects are retained. The trouble is a lot of people seem to forget that. In 320 CE, St. Augustine wrote:
"We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it,"
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which is basically saying 'hey, we're celebrating with you but for our own reasons.'
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Very much a question of interpretation Ghostdog, I don't agree that that was the motivation, I see it as a conversion by any means necessary, by physical force and by the more pragmatic approach of persuasion, hence the pinching of the feast days. After they appropriated them they did their best to associate paganism with their own Christian idea of the devil, which is how most people see it today. Or do you think the the hanging of all those witches was some kind of ecumenical outreach programme? ;)
 
The early Christians were up against torture, death and persecution on account of their religion. If those people weren't so willing to die at the hands of those poor sweet fluffy pagans, Christianity would never have survived in the first place. They must have believed pretty strongly. The witch stuff came much much later.
 
I was talking more about the conversion of Northern Europe and specifically Britain and Ireland, not your actual "early Christians". Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Min.
 
I was talking more about the conversion of Northern Europe and specifically Britain and Ireland, not your actual "early Christians".
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But this was done fairly early on - 6th and 7th centuries if I recall. The witch hunts came much, much later - almost 1000 years later in fact.
 
I fear you have me out of context, I was referring (quite specifically I thought) to festivities around winter.
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OK, fair enough I misunderstood. Still, I think most Northen hemisphere cultures had some sort of celebration in late December to mark the return of the Sun. I don't think Mithraism was unique in that respect.
 
beakboo said:
I was talking more about the conversion of Northern Europe and specifically Britain and Ireland, not your actual "early Christians". Sorry if I didn't make myself clear Min.
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Okay but I don't know about the force. St Pats first visit to Ireland was forced upon him! I don't think he or the likes of Columba went around hanging people.
 
Quake42 said:
I fear you have me out of context, I was referring (quite specifically I thought) to festivities around winter.
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OK, fair enough I misunderstood. Still, I think most Northen hemisphere cultures had some sort of celebration in late December to mark the return of the Sun. I don't think Mithraism was unique in that respect.
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hence the other celebrations I listed such as Yule and Saturnalia. It was a common period to hold festivities because people simply weren't working like they would be any other time of the year (so, the line in the bible stating that Jesus was born when shepherds were tending their flocks at night, that would have been lambing season, which means it was spring because in the winter the flock would have all been indoors).
 
Columbia was a real tough guy and started a war over BOOK COPYRIGHT...
 
I'm glad someone brought this thread back to my attention. Just to illustrate the sort of thing I have to put up with at work, the woman who sits next to my husband (and incidentally used to be welfare officer, and so privy to all of our psychological problems- which is by the by but imagine the horror), sent out 300 (yes, 300 all together) Christmas cards that she purchased at her church. Now these cards were unequivical in their Christian pedigree, mentioning Jesus on the front and on the inside, but she was horrified to find that they also used the phrase "happy holidays" inside. Her solution was to tipex out the word "holidays" on all 300 cards, and write in the word "Christmas". :roll: :shock: :evil: :x Oh how I loathe her. She's the most bigotted, racist person i know.
 
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