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The Falklands

Last night I watched

Locomotion: Dan Snow's History of Railways - Episode 3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_3/

Available until
12:19AM Tue, 12 Feb 2013

It has an interesting section on Britain's development of the railways and trade in Argentina. Dan Snow even described Argentina as something like "an unofficial part of the British Empire!"

An interesting angle! (Watch from about 23 minutes in.)
 
theyithian said:
rynner2 said:
Argentine journalist Celina Andreassi agreed and says the Sun's advert was quite provocative.

...and, at the same time, quite awesome.

For that, it should not have rehearsed the old counter-truth that British sovereignty dated back to 1765.
 
Falklands 'will be under our control in 20 years', says Argentine foreign minister
Argentina's foreign minister has declared he will confront the UK government with a "diplomatic package" that will see the Falkland Islands handed over by Britain in less than 20 years.
By Damien McElroy
1:21PM GMT 05 Feb 2013

Hector Timerman opened a visit to London in which he will press the message that the Islands are a colonial hangover by claiming that Britain would be forced to relinquish its grip on the overseas territory.
He said Argentina was an "incomplete country" as a result of the British claims on what his government calls the Malvinas in the South Atlantic.

"I don't think it will take another 20 years. I think that the world is going through a process of understanding more and more that this is a colonial issue, an issue of colonialism," he said. "We don't support the occupation of foreign lands, and the Malvinas case is the occupation of a foreign land."

While Mr Timerman also vowed to respect the "rights" of the 3,000 residents of the islands, he dismissed the need for their consent to a transfer of sovereignty.
"I don't have to persuade them. The United Nations says there is a conflict between the United Kingdom and Argentina. I don't have to persuade anybody. We have to apply international law and accept the resolutions; if not the UN becomes a body that is only useful when it backs the powerful," he said.

The Islands' government has angered the Argentine government by pledging to hold a referendum next month to affirm the allegiance to Britain.
But Mr Timerman dismissed the vote as irrelevant. "There is a difference between interests and wishes. The people living in the Malvinas will have their interests taken into consideration, but not their wishes. That is what the United Nations has said, many times," he said.

Mr Timerman pulled out of a planned meeting to discuss the disputed Falkland Islands with Foreign Secretary William Hague after the Foreign Office invited representatives of the islands' government.

Argentina claims sovereignty over the archipelago and its forces invaded the territory in 1982 before UK troops retook it after a war that claimed the lives of 255 British military personnel, three islanders and 649 Argentinians.

Argentine president Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner has in recent years strongly asserted her country's demands for the Falklands to come under its sovereignty despite the opposition of the islanders.

Mr Timerman rejected allegations that his government was using the issue as a distraction from the country's economic implosion. He said: "We have been trying to find a peaceful solution for 180 years. I think the fanatics are not in Buenos Aires, [but] maybe in the United Kingdom because they are 14,000 kilometres away from the islands.
"I think they are using the people living in the islands for political [purposes] and to have access to oil and natural resources which belong to the Argentine people."

A Foreign Office spokesman rejected Mr Timerman's criticisms as unfounded. She said: "The people of the Falklands are British and have chosen to be so. They remain free to choose their own futures, both politically and economically, and have a right to self-determination as enshrined in the UN Charter. This is a fundamental human right for all peoples.
"As such, there can be no negotiations on the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands unless and until such time as the Islanders so wish.
"The UK has administered the Falklands peacefully and effectively for nearly 180 years.
"We want to have a full and friendly relationship with Argentina, as neighbours in the South Atlantic and as responsible fellow members of the G20, but we will not negotiate away the human and political rights of the Falkland Islands' people against their will or behind their backs."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ister.html

This isn't really news any more, it's just the same old rhetoric repeated ad nauseam.

Argentina is a one-time colony of Spain - it rejected that status to become independent. And yet it cannot accept that the Falklanders have rejected their brief time as a colony of Argentina (in 1982) and wish to determine their own future.
 
William Hague: we'll stand up to Argentine bullies over Falklands
William Hague has accused Argentina of "bullying and threatening" behaviour and vowed never to give away control of the islands.
By Robert Watts, Deputy Political Editor
12:00AM GMT 10 Feb 2013

The Foreign Secretary dismissed the Buenos Aires Government's claim on the South Atlantic islands as a "fantasy".
"Britain is a country which supports the right of people to determine their own future," Mr Hague told The Sun newspaper.
"There should never be reward for bullying or threatening behaviour in international affairs - just as there never should be in our personal lives."

The Foreign Secretary said the bullish claims to the Falklands by Christina Fernandez de Kirchener, the Argentine president, only made the islanders more determined to remain British.
Next month the Falklands will hold a referendum to decide whether the islands will stay in British hands.

Relations between Argentina and the United Kingdom are now considered more fractious than at any point since the war over islands in 1982.
Hector Timerman, the Argentine foreign minister, recently snubbed talks with Mr Hague because Falklanders were also invited. Mr Timerman even tried to draw comparisons between the dispute and the situation in the West Bank.
Mr Hague added: "To compare the islands to settlers in the West Bank, which is an occupied land, is absolutely ridiculous.
"I absolutely reject that comparison. There are families in the Falklands who are in their ninth generation.

"The Falklands have been there longer than Argentina has had its current boundaries or existed in its current form."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... lands.html
 
How about we sell them West Falkland - where almost no-one lives - and agree that East Falkland remains British? The very definition of a diplomatic compromise, and Argentina can build their very own Puerto Stanley in the West!
 
Argentina dispatch: the troubled reign of Queen Cristina of Argentina
Beset by economic stagnation, Argentines are growing weary of President Cristina Kirchner's obsession with the Falklands, reports Philip Sherwell
By Philip Sherwell, Buenos Aires
8:00AM GMT 24 Feb 2013

For a president accustomed to adulation at carefully-orchestrated rallies in the land of Eva Peron, the demonstration broadcast on national television will not have been welcome.

When Cristina Kirchner’s name was mentioned at Friday’s first anniversary ceremonies for families of a fatal Buenos Aires train crash, there were whistles and boos.
Then, from the crowd gathered on the platforms of the capital’s rundown Station 11, where 51 people died in an accident blamed on railway underfunding, came the angry chants of ”daughter of a whore”.

Just 15 months ago, the Argentine leader was basking in the afterglow of a landslide victory, but her popularity has flagged dramatically as the economy has floundered.
And so ahead of mid-term elections that will shape her political future, she has once again turned to her favourite distraction from domestic difficulties — Argentina’s claim to the Falklands.

The islands’ 1,619 registered voters will next month be asked whether they wish to remain a British overseas territory, in a referendum which Downing Street and the Falklands’ inhabitants hope will counter Mrs Kirchner’s demands for negotiations with London on sovereignty.
No-one doubts that the verdict will be a resounding “yes” from the residents of the wind-swept archipelago that sits 300 miles off Argentina but has been part of the British crown since 1833.

There is just as overwhelming agreement in Argentina that Las Malvinas, as the islands are called in Spanish, are occupied territory. That conviction is hardly surprising, given that claim of sovereignty is drilled into the country’s schoolchildren from the age of five, via patriotic songs in classrooms decorated with maps that depict the Falklands in the Argentine flag of blue and white.

Earlier this month, Mrs Kirchner dispatched Hector Timerman, her foreign minister, to London on a quixotic propaganda mission to promote the cause and wrote an open letter to David Cameron, the prime minister, denouncing British “colonialism”.
Her aides curtly dismiss the referendum as a “media stunt”. The islanders “are implanted settlers who do not have the right to define the territory’s status”, noted Daniel Filmus, a senior Kirchner ally who accompanied Mr Timerman to Britain.

This time, though, her attempts to play the nationalist card to shore up domestic support are falling notably flat, as Argentines struggle with a stagnant economy and one of the world’s highest inflation rates.

“The Malvinas are certainly close to the heart of all Argentines, but the government’s attempt to use the islands as a distraction from its domestic problems, particularly the deteriorating economic situation, is failing,” Martin Redrado, the former Central Bank governor, told The Sunday Telegraph in his modern office block in downtown Buenos Aires.
“The Malvinas issue is not going to cover up rising unemployment, lack of investment, high inflation and lacklustre growth.”

If anyone knows about Mrs Kirchner’s handling of the economy, it is Mr Redrado. For he quit his old position after a dispute with the president — a showdown that at one stage saw him locked out of his office by police - over her plans to tap the bank’s reserves to pay down the country’s foreign debt.

Indeed, for all Mrs Kirchner’s efforts to stoke nationalist fervour about the islands, what was so striking last week was how remote the cause seemed on the leafy streets of Buenos Aires in the dog days of the southern hemisphere summer.
In the coffee shops and steakhouses of a city that feels as much like Paris, Madrid and Rome as South America, middle-class locals expressed their exasperation over the government’s stranglehold on the economy and shared tips about where to obtain US dollars for foreign trips in the in the so-called “caves” (dens) for illegal currency exchanges.

“It’s an article of faith for Argentines that the Malvinas are our territory, but nobody is interested in this obsessive and inflammatory approach from Kirchner,” said Daniel Menendez, 41, a management consultant, as he shared a bottle of the country’s Malbec wine with friends in a Buenos Aires restaurant.
“We know that the reality is that the islanders consider themselves British, they are going to vote to remain British and nothing that is going to alter that.
“She is just whipping this up because the economy is a disaster and it’s an election year. The real problem in this country is not who runs the Malvinas, but how each day, she is making us more like Venezuela under Hugo Chavez.”

For working-class Argentines trying to stretch the weekly pay cheque as inflation hits 30 percent, the fate of the islands was also far from their minds.
“Of course, we all support the recovery of the Malvinas, but honestly right now I wish the government would deal with the economy and get prices down rather than all this talk about something we can’t change,” said Isabel Benitez, 47, who was walking to her job as a hotel cleaner past the Recoleta cemetery, where Evita — as Eva Peron is universally known - is buried in a marble family tomb. “I’d rather Cristina focussed on running the 23 provinces we already have.”

etc...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ntina.html
 
theyithian said:
From the people that front for Big Oil and Big Tobacco. More anti-Obama propaganda from the Heritage Foundation.

The US government, under Reagan, a POTUS that the Heritage Foundation was virtually set up to serve, was less than enthusiastic over the British case for the Falklands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/29/w...re-friction-for-thatcher-and-reagan.html?_r=0

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/12/28/uk-britain-usa-falklands-idUKBRE8BR00820121228

http://www.channel4.com/news/thatcher-reagan-falklands-plea

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/margaret-thatcher-blasted-ronald-reagan-1508068

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/27/margaret-thatcher-defied-regan_n_2369370.html

plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose
 
Long article...

The fate of the Falklands is in the islanders' hands
With the world watching, the people of the tiny British Overseas Territory go to the polls to make history
[video]
By Neil Tweedie
8:01PM GMT 08 Mar 2013

....

The Falklands oscillate between complete backwater and centre of international attention. The parish-pump politics of this craggy imperial remnant can transmute overnight into the subject of fraught debate at the United Nations. So it has been with the two-day referendum that will take place on Sunday and Monday, during which some 1,700 eligible voters will be asked to answer yes or no to the question: “Do you wish the Falklands Islands to retain their current political status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?”

The result is a foregone conclusion, but there will be plenty of people in Argentina and elsewhere looking for the slightest crack in the islanders’ loyalty to the mother country. Lots of journalists are paying attention, too. In addition to the British media contingent, some 50 are expected to fly in from Chile on Saturday, including television crews from Japan, Russia and Latin America. With them will be a contingent of electoral observers from Mexico, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay who have agreed to join a Canadian-organised monitoring process.

Juan Manuel Henao, the American deputy head of the Referendum International Observation Mission, says: “It is a conscious decision to secure observers from the (Latin American) countries. The Falkland Islands are a Latin American issue and it is important for these observers to vouch for the process and draw their conclusion about what has gone on here.”

The Falkland Islands Government sees the observers as essential in ensuring the legitimacy of a process that began with a conversation between two members of the islands’ elected assembly during a cigarette break, and which has now become an international issue, affecting relations between Britain and America, and arousing the wrath of Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, Argentina’s combustible president.

“A colleague, Gavin Shaw, and I were having a chat,” explains Dick Sawle, one of the assembly members behind the referendum. “It was a couple of years ago and we raised it with colleagues, and I suppose we weren’t that convinced. Then, when the Argentine pressure on the Falklands increased under Kirchner, we revisited the idea. And the more we thought about it, the more we thought it was a good idea.”

But why vote on a question that few, if any, islanders are going to answer in the negative?
“It gets us out of the old bipartite 'possession’ debate between Argentina and Britain,” says John Fowler, a journalist on the islands’ newspaper, Penguin News. “Who owns the Falklands? Well, we, the Falkland Islanders, own the Falklands, actually. We have a historical and mutually loyal relationship with Britain, but we are not part of the United Kingdom.”

Those behind the vote, costing £75,000, believe it will undercut Argentina’s stated position, that the islands’ inhabitants enjoy no separate political identity. As a “non-indigenous” people, so the line from Buenos Aires goes, the islanders, known as Kelpers, have no right to decide their fate. This conveniently ignores the fact that many of those voting can trace their presence in this part of the world back to the 1830s and 1840s, when the ancestors of a good part of Argentina’s population were sitting at home in Spain, Italy, Syria and elsewhere. :twisted:

David Cameron has backed the referendum enthusiastically, but he has failed to gain support for the exercise from the United States. John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, sat firmly on the fence during his inaugural visit to London, restating Washington’s policy that, while it recognises de facto British control of the islands, it takes no position on sovereignty. The referendum is an embarrassment for the Americans, who are happy to sound the trumpet of self-determination when it suits them, but prefer not to let it impede relations with South America’s second-most important country.

The vote is pushed strongly in the Falklands for fear of a poor turnout that could send the wrong signal to the world. One poster has Mr Sawle pointing his finger, Kitchener-like (not to be confused with Kirchner-like) towards passers-by, while announcing “Your Country Wants You To Vote Yes”. The Yes-vote campaign is in full swing, despite the marked absence of a No counterpart.

“Grass roots” events are planned for the next few days, including the spelling out of a giant “Yes” by four-wheel drives on the Camber, a stretch of land opposite Stanley on the far side of the harbour. Historically, the site has been used by the Royal Navy and other ships’ crews to commemorate their vessels with names spelt out in giant lettering. A briefing in Penguin News tells islanders to put on a good show for the media.
“When you pass journalists, open your window, smile, wave or give the thumbs-up,” it implores. “Face-painting, especially with children, is encouraged. Please bring your flags.”

Since the war in 1982, one that saw a British force eject 11,000 Argentinian invaders, the islanders have become good at PR. They have also become wealthy on the back of licences issued to foreign companies wanting to exploit the rich fisheries around the islands. The quasi-feudal system that existed prior to 1982, in which a few absentee landowners controlled the economy, has given way to a vibrant, modern economy. And now there is oil, possibly on the scale of the North Sea. Investment is pouring in, despite Kirchner’s megaphone diplomacy, warning of sanctions against those who do business with the islands.

Independence is now being talked about openly, but as a distant goal dependent on the removal of the Argentinian threat. Until then, the British and the military protection they provide are needed. Says Mr Fowler: “Maybe we have been goaded into a referendum a little bit by people who justifiably say, 'Look, in the present situation, you have the best of both worlds. You are supported by Britain militarily, but you are not paying British taxes and you are actually better off than Britain. Come on, grow up a bit.’?”

Some islanders are wary about rocking the boat with a vote, despite support from Downing Street. “There are people here, particularly from the older generation, who feel even talking about independence shows disloyalty to Britain,” says Mr Fowler.

But the signs of a more distant relationship are there to see. When arriving at Mount Pleasant Airport, the base built at enormous cost to defend the islands, British visitors must submit landing cards and customs forms. Those voting in the referendum must have been accepted for permanent residency after spending seven years here. There are two flags, too, the Union flag and the Falkland Islands Ensign, which flies outside government buildings.

On Sunday morning, one of the Islander aircraft of the Falkland Islands Government Air Service will take a ballot box to the remote communities around West Falkland, while mobile voting stations fan out across East Falkland. The thing about this event, though, is that it will settle precisely nothing. Self-determination is an implicit right of British Overseas Territory status, so a Yes or No vote to Britannia’s rule will still leave open the possibility of an independent Falklands. Argentina, meanwhile, is unlikely ever to drop its claim to an archipelago that occupies a strange but central place in its national myth.

The interest on Monday night will be in that rare species, a No-voter. “There will always be a few people to vote no, for all sorts of reasons, really,” says Mr Sawle. “I suppose there is a small number of people who think by voting No, they are voting for independence.”

Mr Fowler is more concerned by apathy than a significant No vote. “What worries me is if people don’t come out to vote,” he says. “There is a bit of resistance here to the notion that people are being pressured to vote.”

Leif Pollard, a fifth-generation islander, sees the referendum as an essentially simple exercise. “It will educate the rest of the world as to the way we feel,” she says, “that we want to remain a British Overseas Territory and not a colony of Argentina.”

Mr Fowler hopes for something more, the beginnings of nationhood. “We are one hundred per cent certain about one thing, and that is that we do not want to be Argentine. But you don’t want to define yourself by a negative. This referendum has done two good things: it has politicised a generation which was not politicised, and allowed us to begin the debate about who we want to be.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hands.html
 
Should still be ok, just about. Most sheep on the Falklands are Polwarths, which originate in Austraila. Australians have repeatedly opted against independence, hopefully their four-legged friends would display similarly loyalist tendancies.
 
Falklands referendum: Voters choose to remain UK territory

The people of the Falkland Islands have voted overwhelmingly in favour of remaining a UK overseas territory.
Of 1,517 votes cast in the two-day referendum - on a turnout of more than 90% - 1,513 were in favour, while just three votes were against.
It follows pressure from Argentina over its claims to the islands, 31 years after the Falklands War with the UK.

The UK government welcomed the result and urged "all countries" to accept it and respect the islanders' wishes.
The referendum had asked: "Do you wish the Falkland Islands to retain their current political status as an Overseas Territory of the United Kingdom?"
There was a turnout of more than 90% from 1,672 British citizens eligible to vote in a population of about 2,900.

Nigel Haywood, governor of the Falkland Islands, said: "Obviously it is a major principle of the United Nations that a people have their right to self-determination, and you don't get a much clearer expression of the people's self-determination than such a large turnout and such a large 'yes' vote."

Dick Sawle, a member of the island's legislative assembly, said it was an "absolutely phenomenal result which will send out the strongest possible message to the rest of the world about our right to self-determination - a right that was fought for in 1982, and which we have honoured tonight."

Islanders had "very, very clearly said they wish to remain as a British overseas territory with those rights", he said, and it would "be our job now as a government to get that message out to the rest of the world and every country that will listen to us".
He added: "What is very clear is that these islands never have belonged to Argentina; what is also extremely clear to me here, and from the results that we heard tonight, is that they never will do."

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said: "We have always been clear that we believe in the rights of the Falklands people to determine their own futures and to decide on the path they wish to take. It is only right that, in the 21st Century, these rights are respected.
"All countries should accept the results of this referendum and support the Falkland islanders as they continue to develop their home and their economy. I wish them every success in doing so."

Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner has maintained that the Falkland islanders' wishes are not relevant in what is a territorial issue.
Most Argentines regard the islands, which they call Las Malvinas, as Argentine and their recovery is enshrined in the national constitution.

Journalist Celina Andreassi, of the Argentina Independent, said: "The majority of people here agree with the official position that the issue is not about self-determination and it is not about whether the islanders consider themselves British or not - because obviously everyone knows that they do and that they are British.
"The issue for most people here is whether the territory is Argentine or British, not the people themselves."

Carolina Barros, editor of the Buenos Aires Herald, said the referendum result was "quite a blow and big news for any Argentine saying that the Malvinas islands belong to Argentina, or that the islanders living there are an implanted population".
"I don't think it's going to change the mind of the government," she said. "It might change the mind of the Argentines.
"Most of the Argentines think that the territory, the land, belongs to the Argentine map. But most of the Argentines, I think, think that the islanders are entitled to believe or feel themselves like the true inhabitants of the islands after almost nine generations."

Election observers from different countries oversaw the vote, including representatives of Chile and Mexico - despite an Argentine request for Latin American countries not to take part.

...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21750909

1,513 + 3 = 1,516, not 1,517 - was one ballot paper spoiled? I think we should be told!
 
I'd be interested to know why 3 people voted against, possibly married to Argentinians.
 
More likely those hoping for complete independence from both nations - a nascent movement, apparently.
 
Well, if there's only one member, that would be pretty nascent.
 
As is sometimes the case with newspaper reports it's the information that's almost treated as throwaway that's often most interesting.

I mean, I - like, I suspect, everyone else - am entirely unsurprised by the result of the referendum, but I do find it interesting that representatives from Chile, an associate member of Mercosur, were involved in an operation that Argentina, one of Mercosur's founding member states, specifically requested it not to be involved in.

It may of course be that those representatives and their involvement had not been sanctioned by the Chilean authorities - it would be interesting to know.
 
Of course Chile supported the UK against Argentina during the conflict.
 
Ronson8 said:
Of course Chile supported the UK against Argentina during the conflict.

These days it's often forgotten that four years before the Falklands conflict Argentina had only aborted an invasion of Chile with a few hours to spare, and that the 1982 invasion of the islands - which was supposed to be a cakewalk as no-one (including the Americans) thought the British would bother putting up a fight - was seen by many as a dry run for a conflict with Chile. Galtieri went as far as to warn Chile via the press that this was the case.

I can't find a direct link to that Perfil interview just now, although I'm pretty sure I've provided one earlier in the thread - but the following, from what is possibly a susprising source, refers to the matter:

Chile was next target after Falklands in 1982, admits Argentine Brigadier

The last Argentine dictatorship headed by General Leopoldo Fortunato Galtieri had plans to attack Chile following the invasion and recovery of the disputed Falklands/Malvinas Islands in 1982 revealed on Sunday the former chief of the Argentine Air Force at the time, Brigadier Basilio Lami Dozo....

Source.
 
Falkland islands referendum: who were the three 'No' votes?
The Falkland islands referendum returned an overwhelming 'Yes' vote. But who were the trio that voted 'No'? Neil Tweedie reports from Port Stanley.
By Neil Tweedie, Port Stanley
7:35PM GMT 12 Mar 2013

After the victory - the speculation.
So who exactly are the 'Falklands Three', the trio of dissenters who voted 'No' to the Falkland Islands remaining as an overseas territory of the United Kingdom?

That was the inevitable subject of conversation in Port Stanley, together with satisfaction at the resounding victory for the Yes-vote in a referendum on the future of the territory. Of 1,518 votes cast during the two-day poll, 1,513 came out in favour of maintaining the islands' current political status, representing 99.8 per cent of the vote. One ballot paper was rejected and one remained unaccounted for after the count on Monday night. That left three people who desire either immediate independence from Britain or a transfer of sovereignty, presumably to Argentina, which claims the islands as its own.

Stanley is a small place – the entire Falklands enjoy a population of only 2,900 permanent and guest residents – and most things do not remain secret for long, but a secret ballot is a secret ballot.

"There will be some people who will do their best to find out," says John Fowler of the islands' newspaper, Penguin News. "I hope they don't succeed because those three people added a certain validity to the whole exercise."

Just as impressive as the Yes-vote was the turnout in the referendum, organised by the Falkland Islands Government in response to renewed pressure from Argentina. Of the 1,649 islanders eligible to vote, 92 per cent did so, blowing away concerns that a display of apathy might result in the referendum backfiring.

etc...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... votes.html
 
And after another vote...

Argentina's Bergoglio elected Pope

Now the Falklanders will be threatened with excommunication too! :shock:
 
rynner2 said:
And after another vote...

Argentina's Bergoglio elected Pope

Now the Falklanders will be threatened with excommunication too! :shock:

The swine collaborated with the junta.

The sins of the Argentinian church
The Catholic church was complicit in dreadful crimes in Argentina. Now it has a chance to repent
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... repentance
Hugh O'Shaughnessy
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 4 January 2011 08.20 GMT
Jump to comments (161)

Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires. Photograph: Natacha Pisarenko/AP

Benedict XVI gave us words of great comfort and encouragement in the message he delivered on Christmas Eve.

"God anticipates us again and again in unexpected ways," the pope said. "He does not cease to search for us, to raise us up as often as we might need. He does not abandon the lost sheep in the wilderness into which it had strayed. God does not allow himself to be confounded by our sin. Again and again he begins afresh with us".

If these words comforted and encouraged me they will surely have done the same for leaders of the church in Argentina, among many others. To the judicious and fair-minded outsider it has been clear for years that the upper reaches of the Argentinian church contained many "lost sheep in the wilderness", men who had communed and supported the unspeakably brutal western-supported military dictatorship that seized power in that country in 1976 and battened on it for years. Not only did the generals slaughter thousands unjustly, often dropping them out of aeroplanes over the River Plate and selling off their orphan children to the highest bidder, they also murdered at least two bishops and many priests. Yet even the execution of other men of the cloth did nothing to shake the support of senior clerics, including representatives of the Holy See, for the criminality of their leader General Jorge Rafael Videla and his minions.

As it happens, in the week before Christmas in the city of Córdoba Videla and some of his military and police cohorts were convicted by their country's courts of the murder of 31 people between April and October 1976, a small fraction of the killings they were responsible for. The convictions brought life sentences for some of the military. These were not to be served, as has often been the case in Argentina and neighbouring Chile, in comfy armed forces retirement homes but in common prisons. Unsurprisingly there was dancing in the city's streets when the judge announced the sentences.

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentinian hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment

One would have thought that the Argentinian bishops would have seized the opportunity to call for pardon for themselves and put on sackcloth and ashes as the sentences were announced in Córdoba but that has not so far happened.

But happily Their Eminences have just been given another chance to express contrition. Next month the convicted murderer Videla will be arraigned for his part in the killing of Enrique Angelelli, bishop of the Andean diocese of La Rioja and a supporter of the cause of poorer Argentinians. He was run off the highway by a hit squad of the Videla régime and killed on 4th August 1976 shortly after Videla's putsch.

Cardinal Bergoglio has plenty of time to be measured for a suit of sackcloth – perhaps tailored in a suitable clerical grey – to be worn when the church authorities are called into the witness box by the investigating judge in the Angelelli case. Ashes will be readily available if the records of the Argentinian bishops' many disingenuous and outrightly mendacious statements about Videla and Angelelli are burned.
 
drbates said:
Just recomission a Harrier and drop it into St Peters Square.

That'll focus his mind is he's thinking of getting political :D

Of have the Vulcan do daily low-level flyovers...you can't ignore that sort of thing...

Hmmm, a few things not available anymore.
 
ramonmercado said:
rynner2 said:
And after another vote...

Argentina's Bergoglio elected Pope

Now the Falklanders will be threatened with excommunication too! :shock:

The swine collaborated with the junta.

I think this needs to be treated with caution at the moment. There are claims and counter-claims at the moment. Perhaps - until more evidence surfaces - it should be he "allegedly collaborated with the junta".

The presumption of innocence still applies here, I think.
 
drbates said:
ramonmercado said:
drbates said:
Just recomission a Harrier and drop it into St Peters Square.

That'll focus his mind is he's thinking of getting political :D

Of have the Vulcan do daily low-level flyovers...you can't ignore that sort of thing...

Hmmm, a few things not available anymore.

Vulcan still flying, Americans have Harriers now. So do we, in museums.

Glad to hear the Vulcan is still in action, I thought it had been retired. I volunteer for suicide mission attack on Vatican. I'll ride the bomb down like Slim Pickens in Dr Strangelove. Yee-har!
 
Zilch5 said:
ramonmercado said:
rynner2 said:
And after another vote...

Argentina's Bergoglio elected Pope

Now the Falklanders will be threatened with excommunication too! :shock:

The swine collaborated with the junta.

I think this needs to be treated with caution at the moment. There are claims and counter-claims at the moment. Perhaps - until more evidence surfaces - it should be he "allegedly collaborated with the junta".

The presumption of innocence still applies here, I think.

Evidence keeps emerging. But in any case the Jesuit Provincial (Frankie) kept his mouth shut when members of his order were disappeared. And theres more. Its not going away.

Dark days of Argentine dictatorship still hide many secrets
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/be ... -1.1326330
Tom Hennigan


For a Catholic leadership reeling from paedophile and financial scandals, the elevation of Buenos Aires cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to the papacy is loaded with risk.

Argentina is still coming to terms with the legacy of the military’s brutal rule between 1976- 83, when more than 10,000 people were murdered in a dirty war against what the generals saw as left-wing subversion.

The role of the church hierarchy during those dark years has long caused fierce debate, which, since his elevation to the archdiocese of Buenos Aires in 1998, has often come to focus on the role of Cardinal Bergoglio, now Pope Francis.

As the country’s leading Jesuit during the military’s rule, Bergoglio, like most church leaders, failed to speak out against the military’s systematic violation of human rights. That failure was widespread among his generation. Human rights activists though have made more serious charges against him.

The gravest is that he withdrew his protection from two young Jesuit priests after they refused his order to stop working in a shanty town in Buenos Aires. Inspired by the Latin-American church’s liberation theology with its call to get closer to the poor, Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics were working with a group of young church activists evangelising and starting literacy programmes in the slum of Belén–Bethlehem.

However the military equated such work with subversion. Yorio later claimed that when Bergoglio withdrew his protection, it acted as a green light for the military to detain them in May 1976. They were held for five months, but several lay Catholic activists who worked with them were swept up in the operation and never seen again.

Bergoglio insisted to his biographer he only told the two priests to quit the slum for their safety and worked hard to get them released. He did not say if he worked for the release of the youth workers held with them.

Yorio, who died in 2000, claimed that during his disappearance, Bergoglio contacted his family to say he had been executed. Fr Jalics, the second priest who was kidnapped, has never spoken publicly about Bergoglio since his release.

Investigative journalist Horacio Verbitsky, in his 2005 book The Silence , examined the Argen tinian church’s links to the dictatorship. Verbitsky has gone so far as to say Bergoglio’s complicity even included letting the military use the Jesuit headquarters as a clandestine base.

Bergoglio says in fact it harboured dissidents and dismisses Verbitsky’s claims as those of an author trying to sell books.

In 2010 Bergoglio appeared before a court investigating the case of babies born to detainees which were then secretly adopted by pro-military families once the mother was killed.

He said he had only become aware of such cases some time between 1985 and 1990, but his claim is disputed by the family of Elena de la Cuadra. She was one of five members of her family to die during the dictatorship and was five months pregnant when she disappeared in 1977.

Her parents had sought the church’s help in locating her.

The family claims that Bergoglio told Elena’s father that his daughter had given birth to a daughter and “the child is being raised by a good family, the situation of Elena is irreversible”.
 
David Cameron tells Pope Francis white smoke over Falklands was clear
David Cameron has publicly clashed with the new Pope over the Argentine pontiff’s claim that Britain “usurped” the Falkland Islands.
By Tim Ross, Brussels
3:28PM GMT 15 Mar 2013

Pope Francis, who is a former Archbishop of Buenos Aires, has previously described the disputed territory as belonging to “the homeland” of Argentina.
However, the Prime Minister told him he should “respect” the islanders’ referendum vote for the Falklands to remain British.
Mr Cameron even dared to make a joke at the expense of the Vatican’s ancient election processes.
"The white smoke over the Falklands was pretty clear,” he said.

His comments, at a press conference at the European Council summit in Brussels, follow the islanders’ referendum that delivered an overwhelming majority in favour of the Falklands remaining a UK overseas territory.

Pope Francis, who is the first to be chosen from South America to lead Roman Catholics around the world, has already placed on record his belief that “Las Malvinas” are Argentine.
Last year, at a Mass at Buenos Aires for the 30th anniversary of the 1982 Falklands War, the future Pope told worshippers: “We come to pray for all who have fallen, sons of the homeland who went out to defend their mother, the homeland, and to reclaim what is theirs, that is of the homeland, and it was usurped.”

Asked at a press conference in Brussels whether he agreed with Pope Francis on the issue of the Falklands, Mr Cameron said: “I don't agree with him - respectfully, obviously.
“There was a pretty extraordinarily clear referendum in the Falkland Islands and I think that is a message to everyone in the world that the people of these islands have chosen very clearly the future they want and that choice should be respected by everyone.
“As it were, the white smoke over the Falklands was pretty clear.”

The world first learnt that the conclave of cardinals had chosen a new Pope this week through the traditional signal of white smoke rising from a stovepipe chimney in the roof of the Sistine Chapel.
British sources insisted that Mr Cameron was not intending to be disrespectful to the Pope or the Vatican.

Argentina has used the election of the new Pope to renew international pressure for talks over the future of the disputed territory.
Cristina Kirchner, the president of Argentina, has already attempted to recruit the new Pope in her campaign to take control of the Falklands.
In a thinly-veiled reference to the long-running dispute, she called on the pontiff to persuade “major world powers” to engage in “dialogue”
.

The islands in the South Atlantic have been British territory since 1833 but are also claimed by Argentina, which calls them the Malvinas.
In the referendum last week, only three votes were opposed to the Falklands remaining a British overseas territory, against 1,513 who voted in favour.

After the vote, Britain urged “all countries” to accept the result and respect the islanders’ views.
President Kirchner maintains that the wishes of the islanders are not relevant.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... clear.html
 
He clearly said it before some Italians made him infalliable.

Had the quotation been put to me rather than Cameron, I would have pointed out that we in England have enjoyed a glorious history of almost five hundred years of ignoring the Pope's witterings.
 
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