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The Loch Ness Monster

I was at Loch Ness last summer. One of my favourite places on the planet. I would move there in a flash.

There is nobody more than me who wants there to be a monster. Throughout my childhood I was obsessed with there being a monster. Everytime I'm there I look for the monster. I imagine the monster.


But, there is no monster.

The story was an invention in the 1930s. I think either as a lark or to attract tourism to the area. Particularly to the Drumnadrochit Hotel. Which did a good crack of it - 90 years of solid business due to Nessie. They made a lot of money. Sadly, from a conversation I had with the people who run it, it's touch and go whether they open again due to so many coach companies going bust and tourism in general being blown out of the water.

I have never known a paranormal phenomena to have so little decent "evidence" behind it. Few stories. A few discredited hoax photos. Few photos of nothing. The place has been trawled and scanned and investigate for nigh on a hundred years- nothing. There's nothing in there. Biology proves there is no way any big creature could be in there. No evidence, no science...it's a hoax.


A beautiful, brilliant hoax that gave me so much joy and mystery as a kid. And continues to give me the same now. I love the place. I love Nessie.
 
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Coastaljames said:
I was at Loch Ness last summer. One of my favourite places on the planet. I would move there in a flash.

There is nobody more than me who wants there to be a monster. Throughout my childhood I was obsessed with there being a monster. Everytime I'm there I look for the monster. I imagine the monster.


But, there is no monster.

The story was an invention in the 1930s. I think either as a lark or to attract tourism to the area. Particularly to the Drumnadrochit Hotel. Which did a good crack of it - 90 years of solid business due to Nessie. They made a lot of money. Sadly, from a conversation I had with the people who run it, it's tough and go whether they open again due to so many coach companies going bust and tourism in general being blown out of the water.

I have never known a paranormal phenomena to have so little decent "evidence" behind it. Few stories. Few discredited hoax photos. Few photos of nothing. The place has been trawled and scanned and investigate for nigh on a hundred years- nothing. There's nothing in there. Biology proves there is no way any big creature could be in there. No evidence, no science...it's a hoax.


A beautiful, brilliant hoax that gave me so much joy and mystery as a kid. And continues to give me the same now. I love the place. I love Nessie.
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No, when people are about Nessie just swims into a crack and hides.
 
I came across a site called https://narratively.com today and it includes an article about early (i.e. early 20th century) sightings of the monster by locals.

Some of the episodes it describes will, no doubt, be familiar, but I just thought that I'd post the link to it anyway.

The Obsessive Life and Mysterious Death of the Fisherman Who Discovered The Loch Ness Monster

Link
 
^ That is really lovely, thanks for sharing.

Looks a brilliant website too.
 
I know, it's the sort of site I think I could lose myself in for several days (who needs to actually do any work anyway?). :chuckle:
 
Coastaljames said:
The story was an invention in the 1930s.
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I'm trying to find a newspaper cutting I've see somewhere of a sighting ( I think ) from the 1880's. When I remember where it is I'll post it.

Coastaljames said:
I think either as a lark or to attract tourism to the area.
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What does that say about all of the other lochs that purport their own monsters? And the loughs of Ireland where similar phenomena has been reported, are they all just desperate for tourists?

Coastaljames said:
I have never known a paranormal phenomena to have so little decent "evidence" behind it. Few stories. A few discredited hoax photos. Few photos of nothing.
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Come on James, there have to be hundreds if not thousands of eye-witness accounts from Loch Ness. I agree with you on the quality of photo evidence.

Coastaljames said:
No evidence, no science...it's a hoax.
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To quote you from earlier today on the Bigfoot/Sasquatch in North America thread, you said -

People see Bigfoot and have done for the whole time they have been in those areas.
People have seen wildmen or beastmen in every inhabited continent through every epoch of history.
People see and have seen Bigfoot.
There is a reason people have not been able to produce scientific, irrefutable evidence. There is a reason for this. I would point you towards Patrick Harpur's book, "Daemonic Reality".
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So why can't this also apply to Nessie?
 
@David Plankton and @Coastaljames two aquatic usernames debating a watery cryptid, it's a conspiracy!

I find myself agreeing with both of you, I don't think that the vast majority of lake cryptids (or any other form for that matter) have a physical reality. We would have found substantial concrete evidence long before now. I'm not saying there's nothing to them, simply that they are not regular biological critters.

Simultaneously the Loch Ness area must have done very well out of the beastie in the past 80+ years and it's in the interests of some, though by no means all, locals to perpetuate this. I'm sure other towns and places have tried to promote their own creatures for cash but Nessie's been the most successful, perhaps because she was first. I think the surgeon's photo and the 30s sightings were all part of some kind extended hoax but I think it took on a life of it's own.

There's a late 19thC sighting underwater by a guy fixing a boat's hull, he describes a froglike animal about the size of a goat. No doubt there are one or two others but things didn't really kick off until the 30s.
 
Ogdred Weary said:
There's a late 19thC sighting underwater by a guy fixing a boat's hull, he describes a froglike animal about the size of a goat. No doubt there are one or two others but things didn't really kick off until the 30s.
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The one I'm thinking of describes something 'the size of a whale' at the surface in daylight, reported by multiple witnesses. But you know what memories are like, this could be totally wrong. I'm still looking, it's not in the book I thought it was.

I wonder about the tourism boost/done for a lark excuse and ask, where did they get that idea from then? And remember that a great deal of sightings are from non-locals, who have nothing to gain in that respect. I'm not saying that tourism hasn't benefitted, I just don't think that's where it started.

I'm not averse to the notion that the Loch is completely devoid of monsters, by the way. I just find it curious that a hoax started a century ago can still be being perpetrated by people with no connection to the original pranksters.
 
David Plankton said:
The one I'm thinking of describes something 'the size of a whale' at the surface in daylight, reported by multiple witnesses. But you know what memories are like, this could be totally wrong. I'm still looking, it's not in the book I thought it was.

I wonder about the tourism boost/done for a lark excuse and ask, where did they get that idea from then? And remember that a great deal of sightings are from non-locals, who have nothing to gain in that respect. I'm not saying that tourism hasn't benefitted, I just don't think that's where it started.

I'm not averse to the notion that the Loch is completely devoid of monsters, by the way. I just find it curious that a hoax started a century ago can still be being perpetrated by people with no connection to the original pranksters.
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I think the surgeon's photo was either a deliberate hoax: the photographer and perhaps others, made a model creature and then set it out onto the loch and photographed it or they came upon a monster like floating branch that they photographed and passed off as "real". I also think the spectacular and OTT sighting where it crosses the road at night is a separate hoax. Some other sightings are no doubt hoaxes by both locals and visitors, it's taken on a life of its own and I don't think there's a long standing continuous hoax in the area to drum up tourism.
 
Ogdred Weary said:
I think the surgeon's photo was either a deliberate hoax
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It was. Marmaduke Wetherall.

David Plankton said:
I'm trying to find a newspaper cutting I've see somewhere of a sighting ( I think ) from the 1880's.
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Well yes...there was a story from 565. But what does that prove? I do think the 1930s "wave" utilised previous tales of sightings. But what validity do these have? No way of knowing. Look at anywhere and you can dredge up accounts of weird things. Because weird things happen. Particularly at remarkable and enigmatic places like the loch.

David Plankton said:
Come on James, there have to be hundreds if not thousands of eye-witness accounts from Loch Ness.
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Actually there aren't that many. But regardless of that - if you tell someone there is a pleisosaur in a lake then...funnily enough, people start to say they have seen a pleisosaur in a lake. Some for fun, some because they believe they have, some for mercenary reasons - kind of in the interests of someone running Nessie-hunting boat tours to have a pretty good account of seeing Nessie.

David Plankton said:
So why can't this also apply to Nessie?
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There is not a tradition in every culture and in every epoch of history of water monsters. Sure there are a good few in certain places and in certain times...but it's not universal.


It's quite telling that Steve Feltham, a man who walked away from his life 30-odd years ago to live on the shores of Loch Ness to hunt Nessie every day for every waking hour has now concluded there is no Nessie. I went to see him last year and he told me if there's anything in there it's a Wels Catfish. But isn't that convinced about that either because it would have to be a breeding community of them and the loch doesn't have the food in it to provide for them. Oddly, it's a rather dead loch....there is not much in there to eat at all. I figue if anyone knows then it's probably him.

But he still loves the loch, as I do.
 
Coastaljames said:
It's quite telling that Steve Feltham, a man who walked away from his life 30-odd years ago to live on the shores of Loch Ness to hunt Nessie every day for every waking hour has now concluded there is no Nessie. I went to see him last year and he told me if there's anything in there it's a Wels Catfish. But isn't that convinced about that either because it would have to be a breeding community of them and the loch doesn't have the food in it to provide for them. Oddly, it's a rather dead loch....there is not much in there to eat at all. I figue if anyone knows then it's probably him.

But he still loves the loch, as I do.
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There's plenty of food, probably sandwiches, in the crack Nessie hides in.
 
David Plankton said:
I wonder about the tourism boost/done for a lark excuse and ask, where did they get that idea from then?
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Possibly because of the mention of a monster in St Adomnan's Vita Columbae which St Columba supposedly banished in 565AD. From Fordham University: Medieval Sourcebooks:

CHAPTER XXVIII.
How an Aquatic Monster was driven off by virtue of the blessed man's prayer.

ON another occasion also, when the blessed man was living for some days in the province of the Picts, he was obliged to cross the river Nesa (the Ness); and when he reached the bank of the river, he saw some of the inhabitants burying an unfortunate man, who, according to the account of those who were burying him, was a short time before seized, as he was swimming, and bitten most severely by a monster that lived in the water; his wretched body was, though too late, taken out with a hook, by those who came to his assistance in a boat. The blessed man, on hearing this, was so far from being dismayed, that he directed one of his companions to swim over and row across the coble that was moored at the farther bank. And Lugne Mocumin hearing the command of the excellent man, obeyed without the least delay, taking off all his clothes, except his tunic, and leaping into the water. But the monster, which, so far from being satiated, was only roused for more prey, was lying at the bottom of the stream, and when it felt the water disturbed above by the man swimming, suddenly rushed out, and, giving an awful roar, darted after him, with its mouth wide open, as the man swam in the middle of the stream. Then the blessed man observing this, raised his holy hand, while all the rest, brethren as well as strangers, were stupefied with terror, and, invoking the name of God, formed the saving sign of the cross in the air, and commanded the ferocious monster, saying, "Thou shalt go no further, nor touch the man; go back with all speed." Then at the voice of the saint, the monster was terrified, and fled more quickly than if it had been pulled back with ropes, though it had just got so near to Lugne, as he swam, that there was not more than the length of a spear-staff between the man and the beast. Then the brethren seeing that the monster had gone back, and that their comrade Lugne returned to them in the boat safe and sound, were struck with admiration, and gave glory to God in the blessed man. And even the barbarous heathens, who were present, were forced by the greatness of this miracle, which they themselves had seen, to magnify the God of the Christians.
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If someone wanted to promote the mysteries of the loch for tourism reasons then this early mention of a monster would make a very convenient hook to hang their hat on.

However, tourism, as a recognised and profitable industry in Scotland, IMO post-dates the more modern sightings of the monster. In the 1930s (let alone before) there would have been few (if any) B&Bs, gift shops, cafes, etc. catering to the tourist industry, and I'd suggest that it would have taken an enourmous leap in imagination for a local entrepreneur to think "lets create a monster legend to allow us to get away from this crofting/fishing/gamekeeping lark and make some real money".
 
CALGACUS03 said:
Possibly because of the mention of a monster in St Adomnan's Vita Columbae which St Columba supposedly banished in 565AD. From Fordham University: Medieval Sourcebooks:



If someone wanted to promote the mysteries of the loch for tourism reasons then this early mention of a monster would make a very convenient hook to hang their hat on.

However, tourism, as a recognised and profitable industry in Scotland, IMO post-dates the more modern sightings of the monster. In the 1930s (let alone before) there would have been few (if any) B&Bs, gift shops, cafes, etc. catering to the tourist industry, and I'd suggest that it would have taken an enourmous leap in imagination for a local entrepreneur to think "lets create a monster legend to allow us to get away from this crofting/fishing/gamekeeping lark and make some real money".
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I do think the 565 legend (and there is no reason to suggest it is anything but legend) was definitely an inspiration.

Drumnadrochit, and the surrounding area, was since the 1890s a popular tourist destination, mostly for the rich and (quite) famous, to engage in shooting and hunting. Also the loch was popular for boating.

I don't think anyone made a great formal decision. Like most human endeavours...these things tend to fall-together through a myriad of means, reasons, actions...I think it snowballed.
 
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Coastaljames said:
Well yes...there was a story from 565. But what does that prove? I do think the 1930s "wave" utilised previous tales of sightings.
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I'm only contradicting you because you said the story was invented in the 1930's, which you now admit isn't the case.

Coastaljames said:
Actually there aren't that many [stories]
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I'll have to disagree - there are blogs and books filled with 'stories', not just a 'few'. The beginning of this thread would be a good place to start.

Coastaljames said:
he told me if there's anything in there it's a Wels Catfish. But isn't that convinced about that either because it would have to be a breeding community of them and the loch doesn't have the food in it to provide for them. Oddly, it's a rather dead loch....there is not much in t
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People keep saying this, yet there are fishing boats active on the Loch.


Coastaljames said:
There is not a tradition in every culture and in every epoch of history of water monsters. Sure there are a good few in certain places and in certain times...but it's not universal.
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But say there is a tradition in our culture, an island nation. Couldn't the "Daemonic Reality" apply even just a little bit?
 
David Plankton said:
I'm only contradicting you because you said the story was invented in the 1930's, which you now admit isn't the case.


I'll have to disagree - there are blogs and books filled with 'stories', not just a 'few'. The beginning of this thread would be a good place to start.


People keep saying this, yet there are fishing boats active on the Loch.




But say there is a tradition in our culture, an island nation. Couldn't the "Daemonic Reality" apply even just a little bit?
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A limitation of my English skills, friend. I should have written maybe that the widespread and popular knowledge of the Nessie "phenomena" as we know it is largely stems from the 1930s. You know - Nessie, in Loch Ness. Clearer I hope :)

I did actually visit the site of that 565 legend. It's not the loch itself. Pretty much tucked away, overgrown, nobody looks after it or cares.

Ok, there are lots of accounts (although I still think you'd be suprised how few) of things in the water. But the merit of this evidence is pretty rough, in my opinion. Something that could be a stick, an otter, a weird wave (waves from boat do behave very oddly on such a large mass of still water).

No commercial fishing. Mostly just charr in there. Pleasure fisherman use the loch as a means to move around from inlet to inlet but don't actually fish much on the loch itself.

It could most definitely apply. I just don't feel that it does. I really don't. If, I'm absolutely honest tho...if I think about it I think it might apply possibly to other weird things in the sea around the UK. But not Nessie. Nessie is a story - I'm convinced. It's too clear-cut, too easy with a beneficial result for a community and individuals. I don't believe it.
 
I don't believe that there is a prehistoric monster living in any lake. Not sure where I stand on interdimensional beings appearing - I think I would have to wonder why they'd only appear in that particular place, surely if they are interdimensional they could appear anywhere?

What I do believe is in the human fallability of sight, memory and comprehension. Would a lot of city dwellers, seeded with stories about there being 'something in the water' and on holiday wanting a story to tell, know what a bunch of large eels look like? An otter swimming? A half submerged log?

Not saying that people are stupid, but they are capable of self delusion and mistaken identity.
 
^ Agreed.

And it's not even self-delusion or mistaken identity...it can be a giggle...travel over from Ontario or Tokyo...go to Loch Ness, "see" Nessie, go to the exhibition centre then get an ice cream. Take funny pics. All good fun.
 
catseye said:
I don't believe that there is a prehistoric monster living in any lake. Not sure where I stand on interdimensional beings appearing - I think I would have to wonder why they'd only appear in that particular place, surely if they are interdimensional they could appear anywhere?

What I do believe is in the human fallability of sight, memory and comprehension. Would a lot of city dwellers, seeded with stories about there being 'something in the water' and on holiday wanting a story to tell, know what a bunch of large eels look like? An otter swimming? A half submerged log?

Not saying that people are stupid, but they are capable of self delusion and mistaken identity.
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When you go to Loch Ness you are "primed" to see a monster and if you are not familar with looking at things on water then anything you see that you can't immediately identify is a "monster".
 
gordonrutter said:
When you go to Loch Ness you are "primed" to see a monster and if you are not familar with looking at things on water then anything you see that you can't immediately identify is a "monster".
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I'm used to spending time on and near the water and I was once on Coll watching a "whale" in the bay for ages with some friends before we finally admitted it was some rocks that were barely awash.

It was a windless day, with the sea surface glassy smooth and with a long low and lazy swell that was almost imperceptible. It was just enough to expose and cover the rocks every few seconds, and with nothing nearby to use as a fixed reference, it was hard to tell if the water was passing something or something was moving slowly through the water.

Eventually, the group leader, who skippered a dive charter boat and knew the bay well, commented drily, "It's a rocky dolphin."
 
Water is weird. Behaves weirdly.

Particularly large expanses of water.

Particularly large expanses of enclosed water.

Particularly large expanses of enclosed water surrounded by mountains.
 
Coastaljames said:
It's quite telling that Steve Feltham, a man who walked away from his life 30-odd years ago to live on the shores of Loch Ness to hunt Nessie every day for every waking hour has now concluded there is no Nessie. I went to see him last year and he told me if there's anything in there it's a Wels Catfish. But isn't that convinced about that either because it would have to be a breeding community of them and the loch doesn't have the food in it to provide for them. Oddly, it's a rather dead loch....there is not much in there to eat at all. I figue if anyone knows then it's probably him.
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The recent investigation of DNA traces found in the loch looked for catfish DNA but didn't find any. Whether that means there are absolutely no catfish present I don't know.

They looked for sturgeon DNA as well but didn't find any.
 
hunck said:
The recent investigation of DNA traces found in the loch looked for catfish DNA but didn't find any. Whether that means there are absolutely no catfish present I don't know.

They looked for sturgeon DNA as well but didn't find any.
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Yeah, I can't see it.

To be a possibility there would have to be a breeding population for over a hundred years. In which case people would have been yanking them out for fun.
 
Lots and lots of eel DNA though. And eels can get pretty big. And swim together in a sort of shoal. And leave the water and cross land.

Just sayin'.
 
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