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The MMR Vaccine & Its Alleged Risks

i think our doc was supeciouse cos of the guys unwillingness to relase his sources...maybe that was cos he was setting up for litigation... its interesting that the established medical hiaracy is going for him now they have found a chink in his armour.
 
Personally I find his conclusions dubious.

Brian's right in saying that a breach of ethics was carried out. Although I may be wrong, but I think press reports are saying his control group were only the children of the parents who were taking action against the Govt. in regards to legal action. Surely this what the Govt. is up in arms about- a bias of the results turning out to be in favour of the link between the vaccinations causing Autism might lead to big compensation payouts. This could very well turn out to be the 'Thalidomide' case of the 21st Century.

Having studied Autism and associated disorders I must point out that I keep an open-mind on the MMR link though. The research into the vaccine should be carried out in more depth and independently.

Many of my Lecturers upon these subjects were dismissive of the link as they would say that Autism is increasingly being reported in children and even adults as the diagnostic criteria is a lot more well known than it was many years ago. If there is any doubt upon the vaccine it would be better to quell these concerns and to prove conclusively that the vaccine is safe/unsafe.

I have worked with people who became severely disabled due to contracting measles as a child. I think the furore surrounding the case and vaccinations is quite dangerous as IIRC there have been recent increases in the cases of children contracting measles as a direct result of their parents not immunising them.
 
A Seething Father Writes...

..Having spent 2 months agonising over whether to give our 1 year old the MMR jab last October I am F***ing angry as .. well ...someone who is exceptionally angry.

The fact that this a**ehole had a vested interest in public opinion being anti-MMR is irresponsible to say the least.

It was an exceptional difficult decision to make. We were faced with, according to Newspapers, Public Opinion and Medical Experts, giving our son a potentionally damaging injection that had reprecusions for the rest of his and our lives. There was no alternative, having seen a family freinds child being brain damaged because of Measels in the eraly 70s, illustrated the excrutiatingly difficult decision we had to make.

We thought we'd go into this with open eyes and gather opinion from as many sources and we could, the local health clinic, medically trained friends, government videos and leaflets, internet, other parens etc etc. NONE of our information sources gave comparable advice. In fact the advice differed from Doctor to Doctor in the same clinic! The deciding factor in many people opinions being the report in question.

I am angry to say the least but hope now that the decision will be made easier for those parents having to make the MMR choice in the future.

Angry

from Birmingham
 
Edward.. i know we went thro' it all too... one of our friends paid a huge amount for some cowboy doctor to give her child the single jabs..(acording to our doc French vacine was the only single ones avalible and he wouldnt risk them)... reading between the lines our doc told us that in his opinion the guy was dodgy. in very couched doctor/coligue speek...... however he isnt the only one saying it so it bears further examination.
 
I read a pretty in depth article a woman wrote for parents magazine. She has a son diagnosed with autism at 1 year is when he developed symptoms and they thought there might be link with his vaccine. But there are also a lot of new foods introduced at this time in a childs life. Dairy being one of them It turns out her son was not only severely allergic to milk and wheat products but that his body synthesized these things in a way that made it almost a "drug induced" state. With a lot of research and support of other parents with children of like disorders she found help. They changed his diet and he is normal, goes to school. He was not autistic at all. I think that sometimes doctors just don't dive into the problems they just pigeon hole children. Vaccines are just one thing that our childrens bodies are introduced to. The chemicals in food and our environment who knows how they interact with othr things in our bodies. I had all of my vaccines as a child and for some reason they did not work on me. I had measles, mumps and german measles. The mumps case was quite severe and my pediatrician said he had never seen such a bad case in a child that had been vaccinated. I had my daughters vaccines done. I did a lot of research on the topic and honestly after my experience of them not working on me as a child I was more afraid that they wouldn't work on her either. I have a really good pediatrician and she really listens to me and I think you have to find someone who has your childs interest at heart a not an easy paycheck.
 
Quixote said:
If there is any doubt upon the vaccine it would be better to quell these concerns and to prove conclusively that the vaccine is safe/unsafe.
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I think the difficulty is in doing it conclusively. All that can be done is to improve confidence in one conclusion or the other. When will the evidence be sufficient to sway those holding the opposing view?
 
I am not sure you could ever prove that something is 100% safe. There are always adverse and side affects in a certain percentage of the populace with ANY medical treatment. This is cold comfort to people who have been affected. But every person is different and therefore will react differently to medical treatment.
 
gl5210 - that is so weird what you say about a dairy and gluten intolerance that caused a drug-induced state. That's exactly what I found with my little boy and dairy - he was getting strange distorted visual effects and sometimes felt he was falling. We took him everywhere and the consultant at the hospital implied he was making it all up to get my attention but he'd been two and a half to three when he first told me of his symptoms and he was seven when the consultant saw him.:mad:

I figured out the milk/dairy link myself, with an odd two weeks when I put him back on it just to see what happened, and sure enough that was it. Six months later he has virtually no dairy (but we're not overly strict - it's not an allergy) and hasn't looked back since! His coordination, confidence, and schooling has improved no end. Funny how much doctor's DON'T know, when it really comes down to it. They are only the same people as we are - they just happen to practice in a different field of knowledge and are just as apt to be full of sh't.
 
Chant- I know so many doctors just don't listen to their patients. My mother-in-law had a mole on the back of her leg that changed her reg. doc (a moron) told her it was nothing to worry about. She got a secone opinion they biopsied immediately and operated w/in a week or two. It was MELANOMA!!! I feel fortunate in my Pediatrician. She is a mom and has three kids of her own. She really listens to me. My daughter had to have surgery this summer and she reccomended a wonderful surgeon. Luckily we have a childrens clinic that is affiliated with one of our hospitals. The main thing is if you don't feel like you are being listened to find someone who will. There are good doctors out there. And you are right they are fallible the best ones know this. Food allergies are very common in children and at the age of one you begin introducing them to all kinds of new things. I was very careful with my daughter, luckily for me she seems to do fine with food it is just all of the other allergies we have to deal with.
 
Read the stuff about the conflict of interests in MMR research.

I admit to not having thought the science behind his findings was trustworthy to start with. Certainly, the risks presented were much lower than that of a child being exposed to any of the diseases involved. (Chance of autism from MMR vs chance of one of three dangerous childhood diseases x the chance of said disease having severe side-effects.) I also thought that a lot of the hype was part of the culture of blame we find ourselves in these days.

That said, there is no indication that his results (such as they are) are invalidated by his conduct. There is clearly a need for more research in the area, performed by people with no interests on either side. The culprit should also be struck off the register for his behaviour.

A similar thing came up with the original studies into thalidamide and its effect on unborn children. The researcher doctored his results to show the drug as more dangerous than the true results showed. Clearly, he had breached ethics, and deserved the full penalty for his crime. However, subsequent research has borne out his basic conclusions, and determined the true danger of thalidamide in pregnant women.

Being right is no excuse for cheating in these things. On the contrary, if you are right, it is in your interests to follow the rules.
 
I will just state again, that we know that the MMR jab caused our youngest to become autistic, no way are the Goverment, BMA, or drug companies ever going to admit it , would cost them millions. Dr Wakefield did not mention that one of his studies was being funded by parents of autistic kids, but then most research is funded by the above mentioned groups, would the research be published if the "results" were not what they wanted?, would they f*ck. Warning. Be aware I am very sensitive about this issue.
 
Michael

I don't blame you for being sensitive, when it comes to your children we all are. Here you are not required to do shots unless your children are in school. There have been exceptions such as Christian Science groups where it is against their religion what has happened is they form their own schools or home school. I was nervous about doing the shots their have been alot of conflicting studies about the Hepititis B vaccine and I was very nervous about doing it. It was the only one my daughter had any side effect from and that was fever and she was very sore. I was lucky. I think too with vaccinnes or any other medical procedure there are some many external things that could affect the way it reacts in children. I know there is a town in my home state that has a very high incedence of autism in offspring of people who grew up there and they have linked to a factory in the city causing extreme pollution (before many of the restrictions we have now were put into place). I think that if they were honest about side effects or even maybe developed some sort of blood test to check to see if a particular child would be at risk if vaccinated. Maybe there should be a lawsuit to provide funding for this type of research. There has to be some sort of commonality between the children that are adversely affected by vaccines. You would think that the drug companies would want to work to find what that link is and who knows maybe develop vaccines for that risk group. There is so much we don't know about genes and how medicine affects them. I have been very reticent to let them prescribe antibiotics for my daughter for this very reason, she is almost five and I have only let them give them to her twice.
 
Regarding the "conflict of interest".

Reported in the Independent today was the minor matter that Wakefield did inform the Lancet of his retention by the solicitors.

I smell witch hunt.

Also in the Independent was a letter from Corrinne de Vries, Senior lecturer in Pharmacoepidemiology, who stated that
... there is no reason to believe that MMR vaccine causes autism; it is biologically implausible
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She seems to forget that we do not know what causes autism therefore there is no implausability in any hypothesis supported by epidemiology.
 
I've been looking into this and as far as I can tell the theory is that DNA from the measles virus is making it's way into the wall of the gut, causing Inflamitory Bowel Desease and affecting the way that nutrients are absorbed. It's this change in the way that nutrients are absorbes that is said to cause autism.

The problem with this as far as I can see is that it would be just as likely to happen with MMR, the single jab or catching measles. Children can die from measles or suffer nuralogical damage and, in theory, still go on to develope autism.

At the moment I'm tending to want to take the risk of the MMR. Particularly since we can't afford the single jabs and I don't see how that would be any better.

Cujo
 
Something certinly has been increaseing the insidence of autisam in the last few years. this increase certinly dose coinside with the introduction of the MMR vacine, however the question is weather that is coinsidence or the MMR jab is responcible or a catalist.

the fact that there is the incress in cases in the last few years could equilly be down to a number of other sauces, new pesticides being used, increases in pollution, changes in preservatives or even the E number colurings. What is needed is a proper impartial widerangeing clinical study to either restore public confidence in the vacine or force the government to go back to single jabs on the nhs, depending on the findings. The goverment don't want to comission such a study though for reasons they seem reluctant to go into, one could speculate that this is because the MMR is half the price of the 3 single jabs and that saving money is more important to tony blair than childrens health.

I contracted german measles before I had my measles vacine when i was a baby and i was lucky enougth to survive and have no brain damage (I think), so I can't over emphersise how important it is to get children vacinated.
 
Lord_Flashheart said:
Something certinly has been increaseing the insidence of autisam in the last few years.
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Is incidence increasing, or is it that we are better able to diagnose it? (I don't know one way or the other, but it is something that people need to bear in mind.)
 
How quickly people are to join in the stone throwing. Has anyone considered that Dr. Wakefield was possibly approached by the group AFTER they became aware of his research? After all, if your going to pay someone to support your claim, you might as well pay someone whose on your side of the fence!

A Seething Father Writes...
..Having spent 2 months agonising over whether to give our 1 year old the MMR jab last October I am F***ing angry as .. well ...someone who is exceptionally angry.

The fact that this a**ehole had a vested interest in public opinion being anti-MMR is irresponsible to say the least
Click to expand...

Well, join the club. I'm fucking angry because my daughters life has been RUINED by fucking doctors who couldn't care less how many children are damaged, so long as they get their £35 blood money per vaccine.
And while while you're telling us about your fucking 2 months of anger, remember the rest of us who have a fucking LIFETIME of anger to deal with. And a government who withdraw legal aid to fight the case. And a conspiracy of doctors who will lie and even go to the extent of removing and distroying patients files from hospitals (Yes, its happened to us). And now a obvious attempt to darken the name of someone who isn't working for big business and the government.

I had all of my vaccines as a child and for some reason they did not work on me
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Some studies show that the level of illness in areas that have a high concentration of vaccinated children is no different from those areas where there is a low concentration.

reading between the lines our doc told us that in his opinion the guy was dodgy. in very couched doctor/coligue speek
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And does your 'doc' know Dr. Wakefield?

I have met him, and I have also met doctors from Harley St., Barts hospital and even senior microbiologists who know of him and his work, and ALL of them and I have the highest regard for the man and his work!

Dr Wakefield was snapped up by a hospital in the US the moment he was forced out of the Royal Free. It gives me hope for the children of the future that some hospitals and some doctors will still work for what they believe in.
 
Personally, I still believe that autism has to be latent in the child's system in the first place, but that MMR can act as a catalyst to activate the condition. So yes, perhaps MMR can "activate" autism, but only if there's a genetic predisposition. My own son has autism, which manifested more strongly post MMR - however, he was a remote and undemonstrative baby to start with. My niece was purposely not given the MMR, and has autism too.

As for the rising incidence of autism diagnosis, as has been said many times it could be that awareness of the condition has risen, more accurate diagnoses are being made (it is a huge spectrum after all - they're by no means all "Rain Men", which used to be the main criteria) and of course the symptms don't become so clearly noticeable until a child is of the age by which time it would have had the MMR.

I'd still say vaccinate. Measles alone can seriously damage a child, indeed kill them.
 
Quixote said:
BTW as most people are aware, you cannot diagnose Autism by that test. If anybody does feel really concerned then speak to your GP.
.
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Your GP will then look and feel very uncomfortable, then start spouting off about "well no one knows what causes autism", while all the time knowing that they could have caused it by giving the f*****g MMR injection (they get a nice "little earner" if enough kids on their books are given the MMR) :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
 
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Bullseye said:
Quixote said:
BTW as most people are aware, you cannot diagnose Autism by that test. If anybody does feel really concerned then speak to your GP.
.
Click to expand...
Your GP will then look and feel very uncomfortable, then start spouting off about "well no one knows what causes autism", while all the time knowing that they could have caused it by giving the f*****g MMR injection (they get a nice "little earner" if enough kids on their books are given the MMR) :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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I know Bullseye and I have discussed this before somewhere - as I understand it, based on personal experience and long discussions with an Immunologist, the MMR can act as a catalyst, and exacerbate latent Autistic tendencies - however, those tendencies have to be hard wired in the first place. First hand example - my son had the MMR, autistic tendencies appeared not long afterwards, clinical diagnosis followed of moderate autism. My niece, born 18 months later, didn't have the jab as my sister in law was worried about what had happened to Connor. WIthin three years, her daughter was diagnosed as severely autistic. So, it's reasonable to conclude IMHO that while MMR can "accelerate" autism in some way, it can't cause it: the genetic pre-disposition has to be there. And the risks of not having the jab are much greater (another niece is now profoundly deaf as a result of not being immunised and contracting measles at the age of 8 ).

Personally, I believe (like others have said on this thread) that pretty much everyone has some autistic traits (collecting things, habitual behaviour, obsessive tidiness etc are all part of the spectrum, and it's a huuge spectrum, at that) - it could well be that autism is just being human. The only people who get labelled with the autism tag are the ones in whom these tendencies are more pronounced.
 
stu neville said:
Bullseye said:
Quixote said:
BTW as most people are aware, you cannot diagnose Autism by that test. If anybody does feel really concerned then speak to your GP.
.
Click to expand...
Your GP will then look and feel very uncomfortable, then start spouting off about "well no one knows what causes autism", while all the time knowing that they could have caused it by giving the f*****g MMR injection (they get a nice "little earner" if enough kids on their books are given the MMR) :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Click to expand...
I know Bullseye and I have discussed this before somewhere - as I understand it, based on personal experience and long discussions with an Immunologist, the MMR can act as a catalyst, and exacerbate latent Autistic tendencies - however, those tendencies have to be hard wired in the first place. First hand example - my son had the MMR, autistic tendencies appeared not long afterwards, clinical diagnosis followed of moderate autism. My niece, born 18 months later, didn't have the jab as my sister in law was worried about what had happened to Connor. WIthin three years, her daughter was diagnosed as severely autistic. So, it's reasonable to conclude IMHO that while MMR can "accelerate" autism in some way, it can't cause it: the genetic pre-disposition has to be there. And the risks of not having the jab are much greater (another niece is now profoundly deaf as a result of not being immunised and contracting measles at the age of 8 ).

Personally, I believe (like others have said on this thread) that pretty much everyone has some autistic traits (collecting things, habitual behaviour, obsessive tidiness etc are all part of the spectrum, and it's a huuge spectrum, at that) - it could well be that autism is just being human. The only people who get labelled with the autism tag are the ones in whom these tendencies are more pronounced.
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Very good of you to be so candid in bringing your own very personal experiences to bear upon the discussion, Stu.

And may I say, Connor is a fine name to give a kid!

Can I ask, how do the symptoms of moderate autism manifest themselves? Presumably it won't stop your lad from attending a normal school etc?
 
stu neville said:
So, it's reasonable to conclude IMHO that while MMR can "accelerate" autism in some way, it can't cause it: the genetic pre-disposition has to be there. And the risks of not having the jab are much greater (another niece is now profoundly deaf as a result of not being immunised and contracting measles at the age of 8 ).
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The single guy who caused all the MMR=Autism controversy in the first place retracted it some time ago anyway.

Edit-Just to clarify, he retracted the media interpretation of the study, not the actual study (on a whole 12 children :? )
 
I've split the MMR stuff from the Aspergers material and moved it here.

My fourpenneth:

----------------
Stu: Thanks for that. My observation would be that in fact the most drrect conclusion would be that there is no connection.

The problem is that the ability and willingness to diagnose autism has been increasing in the same period as the use of MMR has been on the rise. This means we have a linear realtionship but there may not actually be any cause and effect.

Private Eye have been keeping an eye on the debate for quite a while and their general conclusion is that the science on both sides of the debate is poor and we really need a number of large and high quality studies to reslove what is actually going on.

In the meantime worried parents will be avoiding the vaccine and the "herd immunity" to the various disease is dropping to critical levels which can cause genuine problems. I know I'd hate to be a parent at this time and have to make the decision.
 
Conners said:
Very good of you to be so candid in bringing your own very personal experiences to bear upon the discussion, Stu.

And may I say, Connor is a fine name to give a kid!

Can I ask, how do the symptoms of moderate autism manifest themselves? Presumably it won't stop your lad from attending a normal school etc?
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Well, have discussed it before :). Moderate Autism is halfway between severe (ie total withdrawl, hand flapping, often non-verbal, extremely ritualistic) and Aspergers. He has some traits which are bordering on severe, in his case lack of empathy, ritualised behaviour and occasional obsessive repetition of phrases (echolalia), and other traits which are more Apsergers-esque - good communication skills, good sense of direction, adherence to "rules" provided they are clearly defined and not nebulous.

He can't attend mainstream school - we did try for a year with one-to-one support in a normal school, but it was too distracting for him (30 odd kids in a class as opposed to 6), and in turn he became disruptive being unable to cope with it, and it became a vicious circle. Hopefully as he gets older this will be less of an issue (he's 11 now - auts often make significant progess during adolescence).

And glad you like the name! It's an old family one :).
 
Agree that there probably is a pre-disposition to autism,but still think MMR is a trigger that can cause it in someone who would not normally "develope" it.

The chap who first suggested the link (whoose name escapes me at the moment :oops: ) was villified by the rest of his profesion, he was snapped up by a large American University I believe so that he could futher his studdies on it.

Dieter is now 10 and has it pretty severe,dosent use or understand much language,and is growing big, few more years and the wife won't be able to control him if he "flips" :(
 
Bullseye: I'm sorry to hear that :(

What kind of help is available?

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The Private Eye reoprt on MMR, "MMR: The Story So Far", is available through their shop:

https://secure2.subscribeonline.co.uk/P ... p=SPECRPTS

I haven't read it myself but the regualr overviews they give tend to be indepth and balanced (and sceptical of just about everyone's claims as they are all base don such weak science) so I'd bet it was worth looking at.
 
Emperor said:
What kind of help is available?
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Err, well none really, if you want suitable education you take the Local Education Authority to the High Court,and they agree the evening before it goes to court :? , basically you have to fight and risk eveything.
 
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