The Navajo Skinwalker & 'Skinwalker Ranch'

[eburacum]

Don't be fooled by this particular graphic from the Skinwalker show;

What they have done here is added a computer generated image to the LiDAR result, showing a graphical representation of a wormhole. It is not a real wormhole, just a simulation.

In fact it is a particular type of graphical representation known as an 'embedding diagram', which shows the way a wormhole would look if you
a/ reduce the three-dimensional space to a flat plane
and
b/ add an extra fourth dimension to represent space-time curvature.
An 'embedding diagram' does not represent what an ordinary three-dimensional observer would see.

Here's one I made earlier.

The Skinwalker crew really have abandoned real science to favour entertainment.

 

[Robbrent]

Don't be fooled by this particular graphic from the Skinwalker show;

What they have done here is added a computer generated image to the LiDAR result, showing a graphical representation of a wormhole. It is not a real wormhole, just a simulation.

In fact it is a particular type of graphical representation known as an 'embedding diagram', which shows the way a wormhole would look if you
a/ reduce the three-dimensional space to a flat plane
and
b/ add an extra fourth dimension to represent space-time curvature.
An 'embedding diagram' does not represent what an ordinary three-dimensional observer would see.

Here's one I made earlier.

The Skinwalker crew really have abandoned real science to favour entertainment.

It was ever thus, real science tends to be boring to many people, sex it up a little add a few pregnant pauses, some dramatic music and hey presto you've got a money making show, it's not serious science or investigation it's just entertainment

I would love to see a dry academic study of the place and then draw conclusions, but the suspicion is this is all for pure entertainment rather than scientific (and human) advancement and understanding

 

[eburacum]

I blame Travis Taylor, who was involved with the Pentagon investigation into UFOs before this, and probably influenced David Grusch's (largely evidence-free) allegations.

Here's Mick West talking about Taylor, with whom he has communicated with on occasion.

Apparently Taylor was a lot more skeptical before he went to work on the show. He's not an idiot, but seems to rush towards conclusions without checking all his assumptions or data. He also has a tendency to roll out physics buzzwords ("Fraunhofer diffraction" being a favorite). I feel that he'd got used to snowing people at the Pentagon with technical jargon, and never really got called on it. But now he does it in public. It seems impossible he's serious with the wormhole stuff, but I would not entirely discount the possibility.

Taylor has two PhDs in optical science and aerospace engineering, but he talks like a bad science fiction writer.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Taylor has two PhDs in optical science and aerospace engineering, but he talks like a bad science fiction writer.

I've noticed this too. He does not talk like an actual scientist.

 

[Min Bannister]

I've noticed this too. He does not talk like an actual scientist.

I have noticed a specific "Science Travis" where he seems to be talking actual science. It is very rare and appears more often
off the show than on it. He seems completely different.

 

[brownmane]

Regarding the "wormhole", I don't know a lot of scientific stuff in general, and learned of wormholes from Star Trek series, but if a wormhole really existed, would light not be absorbed by it? What I mean is, if there was a wormhole closer to earth, which I assume this would be if it was detected by a drone, would we not be able to see its effect in that area, other than something being shown on a computer screen?

 

[Sid]

I have noticed a specific "Science Travis" where he seems to be talking actual science. It is very rare and appears more often
off the show than on it. He seems completely different.

Yes, I've noticed that to. He seems to have popped up - giving input on a variety of Scientific subjects just lately.

 

[Min Bannister]

Regarding the "wormhole", I don't know a lot of scientific stuff in general, and learned of wormholes from Star Trek series, but if a wormhole really existed, would light not be absorbed by it? What I mean is, if there was a wormhole closer to earth, which I assume this would be if it was detected by a drone, would we not be able to see its effect in that area, other than something being shown on a computer screen?

Black holes absorb light. Don't get your holes mixed up. Fnar fnar.

 

[Sid]

Regarding the "wormhole", I don't know a lot of scientific stuff in general, and learned of wormholes from Star Trek series, but if a wormhole really existed, would light not be absorbed by it? What I mean is, if there was a wormhole closer to earth, which I assume this would be if it was detected by a drone, would we not be able to see its effect in that area, other than something being shown on a computer screen?

As far as I'm aware, black holes either destroy (or dismantles), everything that gets drawn into them from around it's edges inwards. The only light I believe, is the light that survives around the outer edges of the black hole, that gives the black hole it's apparent darkness.
But there again, there are theories, I believe, that suggest that black holes could also be entrances (tunnels), into other dimensions?
Or, my own hunch, is that it might be able to convert everything that goes into it, into the form of dark energy? i.e. What comes out of a dark hole (if anything) might not as yet be seen, or detected?
I'm thinking about that old saying. . . 'what goes in must come out, what goes up must come down' - somehow!

 

[eburacum]

Regarding the "wormhole", I don't know a lot of scientific stuff in general, and learned of wormholes from Star Trek series, but if a wormhole really existed, would light not be absorbed by it? What I mean is, if there was a wormhole closer to earth, which I assume this would be if it was detected by a drone, would we not be able to see its effect in that area, other than something being shown on a computer screen?

Current models of wormholes resemble black holes in many ways so they should be easily visible because of the space-time distortions around the hole. Any light (such as LiDAR beams) would be bent around the outside of the wormhole several times, and would produce multiple images of anything behind it.

Here's an image of a simulated wormhole from Corvin Zahn, of the University of Tübingen.

Note particularly that the distortion around the 'hole is several times as large as the traversable throat.
https://www.spacetimetravel.org/wurmlochflug

 

[Mythopoeika]

I have noticed a specific "Science Travis" where he seems to be talking actual science. It is very rare and appears more often
off the show than on it. He seems completely different.

Maybe the people who run the show told him to be more 'hand-wavey' and 'gosh-wow' to enthuse viewers.

 

[eburacum]

The only light I believe, is the light that survives around the outside of the black hole, that gives the black hole it's apparent darkness.

That's correct. A black hole in deep space, even if there is no accretion disk present, would be visible because of the light bent around the outside of the event horizon. Each star that can be seen behind the hole sends multiple images of itself through this region. Here's an image I just made (using Space Engine) to show this effect.

 

[JahaRa]

Maybe the people who run the show told him to be more 'hand-wavey' and 'gosh-wow' to enthuse viewers.

Most likely. He does a lot of cameos on different History Channel shows, sometimes on Ancient aliens he talks about archeology, though it says under his name "Astro-Physisct". The same people show up on many different History channel shows. The Rabbi that gave the praryer in a season 3 episode is on many different history channel shows as well.

 

[charliebrown]

The Curse of Oak Island and Skinwalker Ranch are both huge draws for the History Channel TV, so being more entertaining than scientific could be a criticism.

But in defense of Skinwalker Ranch, I believe there is a sincere try to find explanations of the strangeness.

 

[Sid]

That's correct. A black hole in deep space, even if there is no accretion disk present, would be visible because of the light bent around the outside of the event horizon. Each star that can be seen behind the hole sends multiple images of itself through this region. Here's an image I just made (using Space Engine) to show this effect.
View attachment 67893

Here's another thing I been pondering over looking at this image, (as above). . .
Thinking about what might be happening inside a black hole and the similarity between 'it,' and a sink (kitchen) plug-hole. in effect it could spin the available light that surrounds it to go so fast, possibly faster than the speed of the light itself?
(Though given that I know the speed of light is acclaimed to be the fastest thing)
If the black holes spin (gravitational speeds could vastly accelerate and eventually overcome the speed of light itself, light as we know it would/could simply vanish as it does within the inside, or inside ~ and through the black hole.
"Only a random thought mind you."

 

[eburacum]

As far as I know it doesn't work like that. Light always travels at the speed of light.

However virtual particles can escape a black hole; this energy is called Hawking Radiation, and black holes will all gradually evaporate because of this phenomenon.

But there is a weird volume just outside the event horizon called the ergosphere where particles can get trapped without actually falling into the event horizon. Particles in this region can sometimes escape however, and may carry away extra energy which is taken directly from the momentum of the black hole. Eventually the black hole could lose all angular momentum and stop spinning. Roger Penrose has suggested that we could use this effect to generate vast amounts of energy from a black hole.

So the two main ways that black holes lose energy are named after the long-time colleagues Hawking and Penrose.

 

[charliebrown]

A wormhole at Skinwalker Ranch was strongly claimed by Travis that he was strictly talking theory as wormholes have never been proven.

 

[charliebrown]

In the most recent episode unknown Chinook helicopters were buzzing the ranch and the owner, Brandon Fugal, complained to the Attorney General of Utah.

The problem is that these helicopters had no markings and no transponder codes, so how to find these helicopters?

Brandon’s brother who flies the company helicopter claims that while flying with night vision equipment he saw orbs in the sky around his helicopter but they were not visible to the people on the ground watching.

In a daytime helicopter experiment the company’s helicopter’s cameras photographed orbs going in and out of the mesa at the petroglyphs area.

Travis said in the next episode he was going to attack the mesa with all the equipment he had available to him.

Travis claimed in these four years they had accumulated an indisputable huge amount of photographic evidence of orbs and UAPs.

 

[eburacum]

Travis claimed in these four years they had accumulated an indisputable huge amount of photographic evidence of orbs and UAPs.

And some of this evidence - probably all of it, is garbage.
In this recent post, we discussed a video clip of a fly which had been blurred and stretched to make it look more like a UAP.
https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...er-skinwalker-ranch.6888/page-32#post-2273630

On the left is the blurred image as transmitted, and on the right is the original clip, which shows the fly's wings more clearly.

 

[Robbrent]

It's all getting rather silly now, the protagonists are just desperate to fill screen time

 

[Paul_Exeter]

In the most recent episode unknown Chinook helicopters were buzzing the ranch and the owner, Brandon Fugal, complained to the Attorney General of Utah.

The problem is that these helicopters had no markings and no transponder codes, so how to find these helicopters?

Brandon’s brother who flies the company helicopter claims that while flying with night vision equipment he saw orbs in the sky around his helicopter but they were not visible to the people on the ground watching.

In a daytime helicopter experiment the company’s helicopter’s cameras photographed orbs going in and out of the mesa at the petroglyphs area.

Travis said in the next episode he was going to attack the mesa with all the equipment he had available to him.

Travis claimed in these four years they had accumulated an indisputable huge amount of photographic evidence of orbs and UAPs.

Well, that's evidence then, because only the US military fly Chinooks, so it must be Black Ops

Oh hang on, seems you can hire one for the day:

https://billingsflyingservice.com

 

[charliebrown]

The cast of show did have a discussion about the two slowly moving chinook helicopters going back and forth over the property of the ranch and commented how dumb that was.

They claimed it was very expensive per hour to operate a chinook, and who would want to spend the thousands of dollars on these chinooks.

The Attorney General of Utah said he would quietly ask around his connections, but so far nothing more said.

I agree probably Black Ops.

 

[dr wu]

Straying just for a brief moment....is a worm hole inside a black hole...? What is their relationship???

 

[charliebrown]

I am not a physicist theorists, but I read on the internet that non collapsible transversal wormholes are impossible.

We need our smart people to express their opinion.

 

[eburacum]

Straying just for a brief moment....is a worm hole inside a black hole...? What is their relationship???

Wormholes and black holes share some characteristics, but they are different phenomena. Black holes have been observed directly, for instance at the centre of the galaxy M87 and at the centre of our own galaxy.

Here's the black hole at the centre of our galaxy; an object known as Sag A*

On the other hand, a wormhole is a completely speculative phenomenon, which is like a black hole but has no event horizon, and instead of leading to a central singularity it leads to an open space (called the throat) which connects to another similar wormhole somewhere else.

Einstein and another chappie called Rosen investigated the possibility that wormholes might exist; they called this an Einstein-Rosen bridge, and they calculated that the throat would close up as soon as you tried to pass anything through it. According to these august fellows, wormholes were useless; non-traversable, as charliebrown says above.

A few other people have attempted to find a way to make wormholes 'traversable', even in theory; the best hope seems to be a massive injection of hypothetical negative mass-energy ( which is repulsive rather than attractive) and could 'prop' the throat open to allow objects and information to pass through. The trouble is, it seems that negative mass-energy can only exist in tiny amounts, not enough to allow even a photon to pass through a wormhole, so it doesn't seem possible that wormholes will ever be possible.

From a distance a wormhole does resemble a black hole in many ways, but the centre of a black hole is black. On the other hand you should be able to see the destination through the centre of a wormhole, whether that is a distant landscape or simply a distant solar system. This glimpse would be severely distorted, as if through a fish-eye lens; if the throat is very narrow you might not be able to see very much at all.

A physicist acquaintance of mine told me once that it might be possible to convert a black hole into a traversable wormhole, but this would require extremely advanced physical technology, and it might result in a rather nasty collapse and explosion.

 

[Sid]

Straying just for a brief moment....is a worm hole inside a black hole...? What is their relationship???

As far as my own knowledge goes (which isn't 'that' far), a 'wormhole' is (to-date), thought to be a tunnel which applies an accelerated passage (time-wise, speed-wise) through dark space & time. Whereas a black hole must be not unlike water (in it's actions) being sucked down into a plug-hole, all that enters it (light, and matter-wise) gets either torn apart, or maybe takes on a different state which cannot be seen visually beyond *entry.
*Change of word.

 

[dr wu]

As far as my own knowledge goes (which isn't 'that' far), a 'wormhole' is (to-date), thought to be a tunnel which applies an accelerated passage (time-wise, speed-wise) through dark space & time. Whereas a black hole must be not unlike water (in it's actions) being sucked down into a plug-hole, all that enters it (light, and matter-wise) gets either torn apart, or maybe takes on a different state which cannot be seen visually beyond the darkness.

Just a thought some one said to me........
"But, space being three dimensional, are not black holes exerting an attractive gravitational force in all directions. Hence there could be no 'way out'." Does that make any sense......to you?

 

[JahaRa]

I am not a physicist theorists, but I read on the internet that non collapsible transversal wormholes are impossible.

We need our smart people to express their opinion.

A worm hole is a science fiction device to get spaceships from one galaxy to another quickly. I don't know who proposed it first but all the popular science fiction movies and television use them. For now, it is a plot device, which may have come from some physicist's theory many decades ago (which is where the good science fiction writers get their ideas).

 

[Sid]

Just a thought some one said to me........
"But, space being three dimensional, are not black holes exerting an attractive gravitational force in all directions. Hence there could be no 'way out'." Does that make any sense......to you?

Definitely!
That is; Unless maybe things as we know them to be (i.e. 'light' & 'matter') are changed somehow into something else, which might be able to exit in a different form?
From: AI (on Bing) The quote “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction” - Sir Isaac Newton. However, a similar quote “with every action there's an equal opposite reaction. With every problem, there’s a solution: just a matter of taking action” is attributed to Albert Einstein.

 

[eburacum]

Just a thought some one said to me........
"But, space being three dimensional, are not black holes exerting an attractive gravitational force in all directions. Hence there could be no 'way out'." Does that make any sense......to you?

That is correct. A black hole is exerting gravity in all directions, so there is no way out past the event horizon.
In order to be traversable, it is necessary for a wormhole to have no event horizon, so you can get both in and out. That's all part of the maths. A wormhole also exerts gravity, but has weaker gravity than a black hole, so you can get out. In theory a wormhole is traversable, so by definition you can exit.

If the wormhole develops an event horizon, you are trapped, and the wormhole has become a black hole.