I don't know how much interest there may be in this topic in this thread but there is a critical article about the Petit Trianon episodes. If you want I can post it
It is arguably the most famous time slip case, and one that led me to do a lot of research into this, and have a few weird experiences of my own.
All you're saying is really interesting. I traveled to Versailles in 1979 without being able to appreciate any strange sensation in that place.
1. The last thing any of the Christian churches would have done would have been to embrace a philosophy and esoteric movement associated with Islam.
Plenty of doubt, of course. Firstly, that story is from George Knapp's book which started all this nonsense, and there is very little that Knapp has ever said which is reliable on any subject. He believes Bob Lazar, for a start.
there are always mystics, philosophers and the esoterics.Had you been watching the programme you would have seen a detailed account of the incident by a witness who came across as totally genuine. However, he said that the story that has grown up around it is slightly wrong, because the dogs weren't killed in some exotic way, they were simply crushed underneath what left the impression of a heavy circular object. As for Knapp, he is not a gullible idiot. He says he has not come to any firm conclusions about UAPs, but has listened to and interviewed many alleged witnesses, including Lazar. Incidentally, I am sure that Lazar believes in what he is saying, but if you have read Vallee's account of his interview with him you will see that he admits to memory lapses and being given glasses of some unknown liquid while at the alleged back-engineering of crashed UFOs. It is clearly all disinformation to keep peoples' attention on the desert when, as should be obvious, if you are experimenting with antigravity devices (not back engineering UFOs) it makes more sense to use remote wooded areas. You wouldn't need a 2000 foot runway, would you?
There's no doubt that many people have picked up on the very strange Knights Templar, and have suspected the modern day masons of all kinds of strange activities. Based on the fact that the symbolism and various other features reflects aspects of Sufi activity it seems likely that the European Masons were an offshoot of the original Builders or Masons, the Sufi enterprise devised by (from memory -- my knowledge of Arabic is poor!) Dhul'Nun, a Nubian. The very senior Mason that I knew was obviously unaware of the origins of his society.so why do you say Sufi groups such as the Templars?
That is what syncretism is, and why it works. At what stage between 32 CE and now are you saying that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches (and Protestant ones once they arrived) abandoned syncretism as an acknowledged, taught and practiced policy?
The other point is that Catholicism is, well, catholic
Yes, I am familiar with Sufism, its history and development, as well as its modern practitioners. Inter-faith dialogue does a good job here in Glasgow.
Historically known as speculative Masons. Again historically there are also the practical brick and stone sort where it's a fairly standard high mediaeval european craft guild, training facility and mutual benefit society. Although I have greatly enjoyed several Ladies Nights I can't comment on thye present day.
The Speculatives really get going in the same flowering that brings the US revolution, the fall of French absolute monarchy, the fall of absolute monarchy in the UK leading to the Protectorate and thence to the non-absolute Charles 2... and onwards to the Glorious Revolution. Romantically they took up the name "masons" and developed a rich and cohesive iconocraphy and historiography.
Who apart from stone and rubble workers are going to do this? Want to kill a cow? Get a butcher. And so on. When you say "spearheaded" where does that fit in with the known political, economic, religious and social landscape that prevailed?
Just downloaded the pdf. What prompted you to produce this? intended audience?
I think you might enjoy Umberto Eco's 1988 Foucault's Pendulum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault's_Pendulum
We even know who some of these people were, and can track their careers from the sites they worked on. Really need you to define dates here. But humans seem to need to make up secret societies and to populate them, for a variety of reasons. We need to ascribe age and antedents to claim respectability - look at Gardnerian Wicca for example (which is nothing to do with its validity as a belief system for those people it works for), and the claiming of empire by Henry 8 harking back to a real Arthurian court. YMMV of course.
Elderly? I'm sure that's not true, you probably just spotted a few grey hairs. Tsk!
Yes, that was Steven Wall, Terry Sherman's nephew, who was a child at the time of these events. I would rather hear the version as told by the adult present, but since that was Terry Sherman, (a.k.a. Tim Gorman, the owner from 1994-1996), that probably won't happen. I expect that Bigelow was quite enthusiastic about Sherman's accounts of portals opening in the sky (an account that seems to have influenced Steven Wall's childhood memories significantly). But Sherman is not giving interviews nowadays.
Well, as one elderly researcher to another, we are drawing on different sources and different databases, as they say these days. The Oak Island programme has found a lot of evidence linking activities there with the Templars, and going back to early times. The Templars seem to have been playing two games at the same time , presenting themselves as poor Christians and aiding pilgrims in the Holy land but at the same time engaging in excavations on the temple mount. Were they looking for the Ark of the Covenant? And that has led the Oak Island crew to wonder if that is the fabulous treasure that is really there.There are fashions in these things - look at Tutmania in the early/mid 1900s. People devise their systems derivatively, from what is in common culture at the time or, as graduates of the Grand Tour, in a mishmash of cultural references that act as dog whistles to alert others of the same class.
Compare The Templars with other orders. Which bits do you think are not explainable except by Ancient Knowledge (for want of a better term) ? The Templar order was disbanded because of changing politics, with the Pope as a player, and a need for cash. It's a pattern that keeps repeating - look at Henry 8 and the windfalls from the monasteries.
Why do you think that the stone and brick guys in mediaeval europe come from Sufism rather than, say, Greece, Carthage, Rome, Byzantium, the Rhine civilsations and, god help us, even what is now the UK? Humans develop skills based on what is needed and what they have to meet that need.
what is your evidence that they did? They aren't Masons in the sense of mystical people on chequerboard floors and Dan Brown. I know there are people who think that Dan Brown is a text book but it truly is fiction after all
except that they are part of a continuous tradition of the architecture of temporal power and fit perfectly into the social, religious, economic and political context. I am at a loss why you think they appear out of nowhere.
I know about lots of things: I am an elderly academic and my period of interest is mediaeval western europe so I have lots of time to study up on all this AND to read beyond and around the subject to see if there is anything odd going on that needs to be brought into the synthesis. From the Pirenne Thesis onwards the role of Islam in the growth of the West is well known. What I have seen no evidence for is a mystical secret society of revered masters etc etc etc. Which is a shame because that would be more fun than tracing the way population growth supports urbanism and leads to the possibility of non-subsistence labour in enough quantity to make a difference.
cause or effect? I suggest that it is rather easy to look at the snapshot now and interpret it as inevitable, rather than being a result of happenstance and disceranable mundande forces. Look at the site of the religio-temporal complex of the City of Durham. Unruly populace, William 1 needing both to reward supporters and also to cow the north. The great Harrowing was one of his first ats having taken power inthe south.
Again, I'm coming back to dates. Durham Cathedral (which really needs to be considered together with the Castle) is the third site chosen for the concept, and wouldn't have happened at all in the same way had the first not met with disaster. Or Vikings as they are also known. The site was in use before the politics of the situation led to the perfection of the Norman Church - where does this use fit into the idea that cathedrals arise from nowhere?
So no bias there then? roflmao! All humans behave in inhumane ways to each other - it's What We Do, perhaps our defining characteristic as a species. As for syncretism, there's the very famous quotation (which has completely escaped me at the moment, maybe someone else can find it? pretty please?????) where a church elder instructs the missionaries on how to interact with current and ancient sites of non-christian worship. Dammit! I just can't remember.
I'm afraid that on planet Frides the fact that the genesis and development of the PoS can be tracked through the history and literature of the times, including academic spats and rivalries means that I can't subscribe to it existing in the form people seem to want it to.
It is a pleasure to be chewing over this with a well informed person of views almost diametrical to my own - long may we both flourish! Vivat Forteana!
Well, I'm not talking about portals, but about one specific and rather disturbing incident. As for what the NIDS team discovered, we just don't know. Nobody has discussed their findings at all, nor found out what experiments they did. Sherman has described his experiences but said nothing about the Bigelow activities. The rumours of buried alien craft under the mesa seem to be confirmed by the present team's work but efforts to drill into them have foundered. However, exotic high-tech materials have been discovered. And there are of course rumours of buried craft at Mt Wilson ranch. From what we can tell, Bigelow has been pursuing his own rather complicated path, not just in the US but also abroad. He is a serious researcher but he is not publishing any findings. What is good about this from a scientific viewpoint is that we get information (some of it very powerful) from the present team, but as they are not aware of what previous researchers did we may one day get a chance to compare the two very different approaches.
That really does not seem to be the case.
As they cannot physically ID it, how can anyone say what it is - UFO or otherwise?
There is no way that you can know whether or not energies are present at Durham; I imagine that someone has been dowsing there so could probably tell you. There is certainly strong evidence along the Michael and Mary lines and if you check out the work of Guy Underwood you will find many specific examples where churches and cathedrals, and ancient sites, are connected with it. Regarding the ancient stone circles and standing stones, there is clear evidence there as well. No, of course only a few Christian buildings were so sited, but some were.
I think ley lines are an artifact. The Michael and Mary lines actually meander about, sometimes crossing, and because they follow a vaguely linear course it raises the odds of linear features appearing. It is comparable to Vallee's work on Michel's orthoteny concept. Even in Bury St Edmunds any apparent linearity over a short run is just chance.Do you mean that @eburacum isn't capable of this or that the lines cannot be perceived by anyone at all? I lived in Durham for secondary school and spent much time ambling about the incised meanders as well as the surrounding areas. So where does that leave me?
Leys are an unproven hypothesis. I haven't yet found one that doesn't evaporate when you start to investigate it - nebulous rather than numinous, they resolve as being "real" only at a state of vagueness which means that they can't be used for anything.... er... useful! How do I know? Of all fortean areas I am most drawn to earth mysteries - and I want terrestrial zodiacs and ley lines to exist. Dammit they ought to! As a result I've been trying to find a ley that works for the last 50 years, my shelves are lined in books about leys and pamphlets that detail local ones. Well they were until I retired when I gifted my collection to the young teen opposite our house. Primary research for half a century and nothing. Leys are lovely ideas but when you look at one? Very sad
Focussing on Durham and also picking up on @eburacum 's point about the usual, far more common lack of continuity of site use, how does this feed into your theories? We do know what comes before the Norman bits of the standing building; how does this fit?
Does the secret knowledge arrive with the christians and the predecessors (all the misty celtic and pagan survival theories) were cluless and without this insight? You see to have a real downer on the church so I'm surprised that this works for you.
I still don't understand why you say that cathedrals came out of nowhere. In what way aren't they fully tied into the changes we know about archaeologically, historically and anthropologically?
And then what happened?
It turned out to be a Grey Wolf!
This is yet another example of the Skinwalker crew failing to achieve their aims, and presenting it as an 'anomaly'. Sure, every scientific team has failures- but they usually disregard the failures as 'outliers', and try again. The SWR crew consistently present failure as a triumph.
I debunked this 'donut' back in post #961 of this thread; it is bad science, and misuse of graphics.
Certainly proves this oversight.
