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Time, Temporality & Perceptions Thereof: What Are They?

Actually, time does (apparently) have precise units beyond which it is no longer divisible. I believe there is no period of time smaller than 1 X 10^-31 seconds.

That's the Planck time. AFAIK, it's not considered to be true anymore. Time's now analogue again.

Just because we have no means of experiencing the past, it does not mean that it has ceased to exist, same goes for the future.

If you can't detect the past or access it in any way whatsoever, does it exist? Same for the future.

Time doesn't actually exist. It's a way of labelling things that the mind uses to make sense of things.
 
If time is an axis, it should be possible to move to any point along it.

Not backwards in time as this would involve a decrease in entropy.
 
Not backwards in time as this would involve a decrease in entropy.

You also have causality/information to worry about too.

And dinosaurs.
 
How timely. As I was shaving this morning, I had a thought to post the question: Can anyone on the Board prove that the past ever existed? (i.e., Is there anything other than the present?)

Not believing that we live in a 'Matrix,' or anything as silly, but I've always been fascinated by the theory that the past is a constructed basis to rationalise the present, much like the logic in our dreams where we construct histories or rationalisations to support our then-current dream situation.

Is the present all we really have? Must be the holidays that get us thinking about these things.

BTW, wishing you all in advance a very Fortean New Year. :)

Stilton
 
Thesaurus Rex said:
Time: it's the most familiar thing in the world, but what exactly is it?

in the words of arthur dent and ford prefect:-

ad:- "...at lunch time?"
fp:- "time is an illusion!, lunch time doubley so!" :D
 
I'm just starting, "Time's Arrow & Archimedes' Point. New Directions for the
Physics of Time," by Huw Price, 1996.

Come to think of it, I have been just starting "Time's Arrow & Archimedes' Point.
New Directions for the Physics of Time," by Huw Price, 1996 for quite some time. :rolleyes:
 
How timely. As I was shaving this morning, I had a thought to post the question: Can anyone on the Board prove that the past ever existed? (i.e., Is there anything other than the present?)

Hmm...interesting. I THINK I posted this thread yesterday, but is that just a way of rationalising its existence with my name on it? I think in relativity theory there is no one "present" and not necessarily one order of events as this depends on how the observer is moving :confused: I think I'll go and lie down for a bit.
Thanks for all the interesting replies!
 
One possible operational definition to use is that time is that thing that is measured by clocks, just as distance is that thing measured with rulers, or their analogues.

(In fact, the equivalent question "What is distance?" seems to be trivial, until you actually try to define it. :) )
 
Interesting "Horizon" just been on BBC2. Various schemes for time travel, mostly relating to general reativity. The physicist guys in this seemed to reckon that past and future are actual existing "places" that you can travel to, providing you have a few million solar masses squashed into a long, thin tube. Piece of cake, really!
 
I caught the last half hour of that, and the final theory they considered, that the odds we are simulations in someone else's computer program was interesting and freaky. I'm sure there's been a thread on here discussing this concept previously.
 
Lord Boreal said:
I caught the last half hour of that, and the final theory they considered, that the odds we are simulations in someone else's computer program was interesting and freaky. I'm sure there's been a thread on here discussing this concept previously.

lol ..just a few matrix freeks around ah..... but then those simulations will have simulations...and those too and so one for ever..... so it seems prity certain that we'r in a sim!... humm
 
Nothing new to add, but this is without a doubt the most philosophically interesting thread I've posted on in quite some time. Slaps on the back all round, in whatever temporal construct you find it convenient to believe in.
 
Lord Boreal said:
I caught the last half hour of that, and the final theory they considered, that the odds we are simulations in someone else's computer program was interesting and freaky. I'm sure there's been a thread on here discussing this concept previously.

Which brings us round to the theory of the Holographic Universe which I believe has been discussed on FTMB before I'll find the thread and link it, when I'm less tired and grumpy
 
I can, by the way, 'prove' that time-travel (in the backwards direction) will not be available to the masses in my lifetime.

If I were to have the chance to travel back in time to any point in my own past, I'd go back to Christmas Eve, 1983, in my parents' front room in Prestwood.
I have a panoramic photo of that room at that time. There is no evidence of a time-travelling machine or an adult me in the picture. Therefore, even if I disappear at some point in the future, claiming this as my intended target time/place, it is already pre-determined that I won't make it, as there's already evidence that I wasn't there.
Anyone who thinks that the photo will change, Back To The Future style should think through cause-and effect more carefully. If it does happen in the future, the photo will already have my image on it. For the photo to suddenly morph before my (2003) eyes to show my (20XX) self grinning next to my mewling (1983) self disobeys most of the laws of causality we work under the assumption of.

If that does happen any time soon, I shall write a letter to the FT, announcing that our grand paradigm has just taken a big side-step, though I doubt even then it will be taken seriously.



I've just proof-read this, and have a 'half-drunk' suspicion that it will read like absolute bullpats. I am inclined to delete and not post it, but I'll risk it with the proviso that you all accept I was drunk when I typed it. Cheers.


Edited for typo I hadn't noticed, mere moments later. Ho-hum....
 
but then those simulations will have simulations...and those too and so one for ever.
And we in turn will create a simulation creating a replicant system, like DNA, which perhaps could turn out to be the DNA-equivalent of some huge informational being that we may perhaps refer to as the SuperGod. Perhaps just one among millions of Supergods all made up of simulated universes. That would be pretty crazy...
 
There is school of thought, along with the entropy idea, that Time is decay.

In the begining of this universe there was only energy, this energy expanded catasrophically and changed into matter, becoming more and more complex until we have the heavy elements and such, until ultimately, entropy means that the universe will reach a uniformity of balance between matter and energy. This inertia will either remain indefinitely in balance or matter will overcome energy and cause the big crunch.

In this view, then, time is an effect of the decay of energy into matter.

I've never gone into the deep physics of it, but sounds more philosophic than scientific. Relegates time to a by-product.

Odd.

LD
 
Originally posted by 101
I have a panoramic photo of that room at that time. There is no evidence of a time-travelling machine or an adult me in the picture. Therefore, even if I disappear at some point in the future, claiming this as my intended target time/place, it is already pre-determined that I won't make it, as there's already evidence that I wasn't there.

This assumes that if you had time travelled to the past you would be visible and detectable in the room. I've heard of one theory (in the past!) that some ghostly occurences could be time travellers.

(Maybe if you look closely at the photo you might see an orb that's your time-travelling self! :D )
 
It also assumes that you don't meet your own end before time travel becomes possible.
 
joester said:
It also assumes that you don't meet your own end before time travel becomes possible.


"...time-travel (in the backwards direction) will not be available to the masses in my lifetime "

I refer you to the unsubtly emboldened part of the quote.
 
Another familiar aspect of time is the way its apparent rate varies. If you're having a dull time in the office, it slows almost to a stop; when you're doing something overwhelmingly pleasurable and exciting (such as eating a pickled gherkin perhaps) it zips by. Is this due to some chemical effect in the brain? If so you could have time-varying drugs: so, in your boring office, take a zip pill and fast-forward to the evening; while watching Richard and Judy, take a slow pill to prolong the experience for (apparently) several weeks. My Nobel prize awaits!
 
I take melted zap-beans, ground into an aromatic concoction of strong Cuban Coffee. Mmm... mm...


lol ..just a few matrix freeks around ah..... but then those simulations will have simulations...and those too and so one for ever..... so it seems prity certain that we'r in a sim!... humm

But those simulations would require a certain portion of it simulating the simulation, going on wards, until the mass of the memory chips are so large that they collapse upon themselves and create.... a black hole.

Maybe that's what's at the center of all galaxies... a large supercomputer. :)
 
some comments on the nature of time

To all:

When talking about the nature of time, "traditional science” is in something of the position of speaking a posteriori, rather than a priori. When you define something, like a non-Abelian group, a continuous function, or an affine transformation, you have the fundamentals in front of you, and you proceed to derive follow-up characteristics from those. In terms of time, "traditional science" is doing much the same as in studying prime numbers, namely, working with something already in existence, and determining its nature. The proper approach, then, could be said to be somewhat along the lines of studying prime numbers. Among other things, primes are examined by determining what they do, then seeing what that suggests.

In terms of time, that could mean, first of all, looking at what it is that yields the impression of time. Time, it turns out, seems to involve a rather involved collection of phenomena.

One of the most important, it turns out, is memory. It is rather along the lines of: "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?" If something has a memory of past occurrences, then it is testimony to the fact that time has occurred. If something has no memory of the past whatever, there can be a genuine question as to whether time can be said to exist. There are those who may be tempted to rush the objection: "Well, that means that, if you have a cloud full of electrons, which, supposedly, have no memory of what has happened, then it can't experience time. I'm imagining such a cloud. I'm imagining a universe full of nothing but electrons. But I can see them moving all over the place, colliding, repelling, or brushing past each other! There's time there!" But, to "imagine" that universe means that you, someone with a memory, are using that memory to envision the sequence of interactions! And that negates the premise of nothing with memory being involved! To be devoid of memory, to, essentially, see every instant as the only moment, is, evidently, to be absent of time!

Which does raise a question. Are there any particles that can be said to "have no memory"? For a mechanical entity, "memory" seems to consist of some kind of "memorialization", that is, a detail incorporated into its structure, that relates to an event.

If a proton, say, were to have "memory" of past events, it could take the form of alterations in the waveform that constitutes it. But that raises an important aspect with respect to photons. In Einstein's Relativity, a fundamental facet is that photons do not experience time. In fact, it is impossible for photons to feel time. If photons are as physically simple as posited, then it couldn't have any structure within it to maintain "memories". But, if you are aware of the definition of light, you would see an inherent difficulty. Light is represented to be a pair of intersecting electrostatic and magnetic fields, each giving rise to the other! The alternating electrostatic field gives rise to the perpendicular alternating magnetic field. But, the changing of the magnetic field - essentially caused by the alternating of the electrostatic field - gives rise to the electrostatic field! The alternating electrostatic field gives rise to the oscillating magnetic field, and, at the same instant, it is being given rise to by the magnetic field, that it is producing! So the electrostatic field gives rise to the magnetic field that gives rise to the electrostatic field! It almost looks as if light is in confusion about which comes first, since the alternating of one field gives rise to the effect that, in turn, gives rise to the original alternating field! Causality seems to have no meaning inside a beam of light! And it would be easy to suggest that that goes along with Einstein's suggestion that time doesn't exist inside light. But, if light is an alternating set of fields, then it must experience time! Something does not alternate unless it is going through time! But, traditional oscillation involves something going from one state to a similar, but later state. The fields in a beam of light seem to "oscillate" and turn into their original selves! Each oscillating field is its own parent, grandparent and great grandparent! In that way, then, each field can be said to be its own "memory", since it is the "memorial" of what gave rise to it! The closest analog "traditional science" may be able to give is that of a constantly recurring cycle of events, each field alternating, going through phases, and turning back into itself! If light goes through time, it may be time limited to the length of a single oscillation.

And, incidentally, the electrostatic and magnetic fields are not "connected" to any matter, they are disembodied, existing not by virtue of "emanating from" a "source", but, rather, because their oscillation gives rise to the associated field, whose oscillations are giving rise to the original field!

Before you go into any paeans to "traditional science", consider that the average "physicist" looks upon the mutual alternating of fields in a blase and unquestioning manner, just asserting that one field gives rise to the other, but not once addressing the fact that the alternating field that each gives rise to, gives rise to the alternating field itself, meaning that each field is giving rise to itself! The depth of the implications are very handily glossed over regularly, in talking about light. It's perhaps not surprising that the nature of time is far from fully plumbed, by "traditional science".

Another characteristic that seems implicit in what is considered the experiencing of time is seamless and, essentially, predictable sequences of events. A rock rolling downhill does not start at the top, then suddenly switch to being at the bottom, then suddenly find itself back near the top, again. A part of defining time is in terms of dependable processes, a number of which, such as the pendulum, can relate back directly to the measurement of time. If time exists, then something must be able to measure it! The absence of seamless, reliable manifestations can also signify an absence of time. In the quantum world of the subatomic particle, where, essentially, even space twists and contorts chaotically, perhaps there is no experiencing of time! If the particles referred to in Bell’s Theorem - mutually created particles in which, when the state of one is observed, the other, even if light years away, will instantaneously “know”, and take on the matching state - don’t feel time, then they may not be bound by the supposed absolute light speed relationship between distance and time, that Einstein postulates! To whatever extent subatomic particles may act in a time-related manner, it may represent some kind of inherent clock, something, basically, not affected by anything outside.

In many ways, the experiencing of time in the universe can be viewed in this manner: think of every instant of every possible form the universe can take being a separate card, and imagine all the cards tossed randomly on a table. In some way, it almost seems, our spirits have the ability to navigate unerringly from one card to the very next logical one in sequence, and all at the same time! Those who experience visions of the future, or the now apparently commoner and commoner phenomenon of entering a room they never knew existed, then, when they try to find it again, not being able to, may be represented as spirits who got “separated” and momentarily flew through other universe “cards”, before joining the rest, again!

What we call “time” though, does not seem to have much to do with that fundamental description, and, by its nature, it seems to rely on a number of different factors, working together. In many ways, time may be a construct! That change occurs seems true. That change, in general, seems precisely definable, in sequence, also seems the case. And the fact that we can memorialize events also seems evident. All of that together is given the handy moniker, “time”, but it may be that we should view time, not as an individual entity, but, rather, as the end result of those many different facets of the world, acting together, and examine the why’s and wherefore’s of those things existing!



Julian Penrod
 
Phew! Mighty post there Julian. Some interesting points there. I must admit I've had similar thoughts about light, not so much the electric/magnetic fields causing each other (which seems fairly understandable, unless I'm misunderstanding your point) but the speed of light itself. According to relativity, as your speed of motion increases, space shrinks in the direction of motion and time slows down, and at the speed of light time stops and space shrinks to nothing in the direction of motion, ie it becomes 2-D.
So if you're a photon, you live in a 2D world which in some sense is outside of time!? Of course, solid objects like spacecraft and people can't reach the speed of light but photons have no choice. What all this means to life, the Universe and everything I really don't know!:confused:
 
Re: some comments on the nature of time

julianpenrod said:
Which does raise a question. Are there any particles that can be said to "have no memory"? For a mechanical entity, "memory" seems to consist of some kind of "memorialization", that is, a detail incorporated into its structure, that relates to an event.

If a proton, say, were to have "memory" of past events, it could take the form of alterations in the waveform that constitutes it. But that raises an important aspect with respect to photons. In Einstein's Relativity, a fundamental facet is that photons do not experience time. In fact, it is impossible for photons to feel time. If photons are as physically simple as posited, then it couldn't have any structure within it to maintain "memories". But, if you are aware of the definition of light, you would see an inherent difficulty. Light is represented to be a pair of intersecting electrostatic and magnetic fields, each giving rise to the other! The alternating electrostatic field gives rise to the perpendicular alternating magnetic field. But, the changing of the magnetic field - essentially caused by the alternating of the electrostatic field - gives rise to the electrostatic field! The alternating electrostatic field gives rise to the oscillating magnetic field, and, at the same instant, it is being given rise to by the magnetic field, that it is producing! So the electrostatic field gives rise to the magnetic field that gives rise to the electrostatic field! It almost looks as if light is in confusion about which comes first, since the alternating of one field gives rise to the effect that, in turn, gives rise to the original alternating field! Causality seems to have no meaning inside a beam of light! And it would be easy to suggest that that goes along with Einstein's suggestion that time doesn't exist inside light. But, if light is an alternating set of fields, then it must experience time! Something does not alternate unless it is going through time! But, traditional oscillation involves something going from one state to a similar, but later state. The fields in a beam of light seem to "oscillate" and turn into their original selves! Each oscillating field is its own parent, grandparent and great grandparent! In that way, then, each field can be said to be its own "memory", since it is the "memorial" of what gave rise to it! The closest analog "traditional science" may be able to give is that of a constantly recurring cycle of events, each field alternating, going through phases, and turning back into itself! If light goes through time, it may be time limited to the length of a single oscillation.

..........

What we call “time” though, does not seem to have much to do with that fundamental description, and, by its nature, it seems to rely on a number of different factors, working together. In many ways, time may be a construct! That change occurs seems true. That change, in general, seems precisely definable, in sequence, also seems the case. And the fact that we can memorialize events also seems evident. All of that together is given the handy moniker, “time”, but it may be that we should view time, not as an individual entity, but, rather, as the end result of those many different facets of the world, acting together, and examine the why’s and wherefore’s of those things existing!

I've understood most of your post except for one thing:

You're relating two concepts: One metaphorical, and one from our electromagnetic/physical world to attribute something to light or to give time a more spiritual (is that the right word) meaning.

Seems to be more of a lingual relation than actual. But then science isn't that far yet :p
 
Time appears to be affected by gravity (hmm, I think that's a given). Gravity can be manipulated, therefore I would assume time can be manipulated to some extent.

I think it should be possible to travel to the future, but I can't see time travel into the past working. Once events have passed, I doubt they exist anymore.

Looking at the state of the planet, human nature, and the fact that once you have gone forwards you probably can't go back, who would want to do it? :rolleyes:
 
Planck time

GiantRobot said:
That's the Planck time. AFAIK, it's not considered to be true anymore. Time's now analogue again.

Latest issue of Scientific American, cover feature on "Loop Quantum Gravity" asserts quanta of space and time. Planck time is back again :)

Incidentally doesn't quantizing space and time resolve Zeno's Paradox?
 
There seems to be a bit of confusion about the nature of time at the moment. In the bumper holiday edition of New Scientist (apologies if this has been mentioned already), there's a piece about how Physical theories of the nature of time fail to take into account how it is frequently experienced by people on drugs or in extreme situations.

The author clearly can't tell Physics from Psychology.

As for "Planck Time", is this a reference to a model of discrete time where we lurch forward a Planck unit of time without passing through the intervening space?

(My understanding of the term "Planck Time" is the unit of time that corresponds to the "Planck Length". This leads to the speed of light being 1 in Planck units, which can be handy for some calculations. I also think h(bar) works out to an interesting value as well.)

Originally posted by 101
"...time-travel (in the backwards direction) will not be available to the masses in my lifetime "

I refer you to the unsubtly emboldened part of the quote.


But, given the nature of time and time travel (backwards), if it ever becomes possible in one era, it automatically becomes available in all eras. (Since you can, as claimed by Dr Science, simply wait until it becomes affordable, and then travel back in time to give it to yourself. Or, if that happens after your death, your descendants can do it.)

Unless you've got some silly model that only works if you have a time machine at both ends, or something.
 
Megazoid said:
I think it should be possible to travel to the future, but I can't see time travel into the past working.

I recently compiled, from different sources, an article as to how time travel may be possible, even into the past. Well, not recently. More like yesterday :D

http://www.mendhak.com/paranormal/parascience/show.php?id=36

While it is practically impossible, it is theoretically possible to a certain extent. For example, look at the Van Stokum Cylinder. If you orbit it in the other direction, then you will have travelled back in time, although I feel not beyond the point of time at which the rotation had started.
 
anome said:
But, given the nature of time and time travel (backwards), if it ever becomes possible in one era, it automatically becomes available in all eras. (Since you can, as claimed by Dr Science, simply wait until it becomes affordable, and then travel back in time to give it to yourself. Or, if that happens after your death, your descendants can do it.)

Unless you've got some silly model that only works if you have a time machine at both ends, or something.

Hmm... Don't follow. Explain it to me in even more simple language, lest I'm makeing a huge mistake.
Surely if (backwards) time-travel becomes possible in one era, it still won't be 'automatically' do-able in any previous points in time unless instruction arrives from the point of origin as to how to do it.

Eg, if I discover the secret to backwards time-travel in the year 2006, it does not follow that people in 2005 wil 'automatically' know how to travel back in time, unless I chose to appear to them, resplendent in my DeLorian sportscar or whatever, and explain how it's done. Likewise, that event itself would only illuminate potential time-travellers from 2005 onwards. People trying to travel in time this year (2004) will again have to hope that either me from 2006 or whoever I visit and educate in 2005 travels back and deliberately or accidentally lets them in on the secret.


Am I way off here?
 
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