TV Licensing: The Stated Facts, In Black-And-White

[Mythopoeika]

The figures remain a puzzle; I think Ermintrude's Direct Debit conjecture sounds sensible but TV Licencing would not surely miss the correlation and neglect to nudge any inert beneficiaries paying the incorrect tarrif.

I thought that was my conjecture?

 

[JamesWhitehead]

I thought that was my conjecture?

Apologies. So it was.

 

[Mythopoeika]

 

[Andy X]

If a recorder (e.g. a Personal Video Recorder) is connected to a black and white TV then a colour TV Licence will be required.

Why do they have to pay for a colour TV if they have a B&W one, if they play the vid back it will just come out as B&W on their telly

Why indeed? On closer examination the rules do seem a bit pedantic.

Behold the mighty Ferguson Videostar in its original top-loading, piano-key-clunking incarnation:




I used to have one of these machines (it might still be in the garage somewhere) and had lots of retro-recording fun with it. Interestingly these VCRs, in common with broadcast-quality decks of the time, featured a 'black & white' switch on the back panel (actually it was COLOUR / AUTO / B&W on mine).

Having no idea where the manual is I'm not sure now what the switch actually did, but assume that in the B/W position it filters out the colour subcarrier, which is demodulated within the VCR and shifted to a lower frequency much nearer that of the black and white picture...and tends to cause interference and crosstalk between signals off the tape. Or it may just be to do with black levels or summat...

Anyway, the point is that assuming the switch affects recording not just playback and does in fact enable clearer but monochrome-only recordings, a person with such an ancient machine - and the means to convert the output from a STB to a composite PAL signal via an aerial cable - might (having permanently disabled the other two switch positions) be able to demonstrate genuine black and white recording to videotape. But presumably would still *ahem* 'need' a colour licence if playing back such recordings on a colour display.

Also it would be an awful lot of bother to go to

*Edited because superfluous word and pedantic nature

 

[Analogue Boy]

What if all these people set up a direct debit ages ago but have now expired in front of their old sets - reclining skeletons eerily bathed in a monochromatic glow.

Happy New Year everyone!

 

[Ermintruder]

I thought that was my conjecture?

Apologies. So it was.

I was certainly tuned-in to the concept...

To be honest, I'm with you there, because a B&W licence is somehow more suspicious than no licence at all.

Well, perhaps exactly so, if I were a televisual anarchist, I'd tend to follow the no paperwork whatsoever kind-of path.

What if all these people set up a direct debit ages ago but have now expired in front of their old sets - reclining skeletons eerily bathed in a monochromatic glow.

^^ This, is just absolutely Fortean fantastic. It's a not totally-unfamiliar trope, but I love it, extra-loads, in this context.

And since we're talking truly-strange statistics, I wonder what the percentage is, nationally, of the precise demographic elucidated above?? Perhaps we could create a Fortean version of the Countrymeter, linked to, below....(be warned, it's addictive!!)

http://countrymeters.info/en/United_Kingdom_(UK)

(It could maybe also include provisional stats for unusual deaths through eg SHC, meteorites, tortoise stampede etc, any really-fringe stat that's barely visibile, right down in the unseen margins )

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

This is an enjoyable thread, anything to do with old tellys

In terms of the B&W TV Licence numbers, I would suspect it's a mixture of the suggestions already provided; some people unable (or unwilling) to pay for a colour licence, some people having 'forgot' to upgrade to a colour licence if it just gets taken automatically each year by direct debit, and some people genuinely owning B&W sets because they might prefer them.

And yeah, I don't get the reasoning behind a video recorder requiring a full colour license - perhaps the bods at the TV Licensing dept don't realise that the video recorder won't magically change the picture into colour.

And while we're on the subject, why do blind people not get a 50% rebate on their license fee? Or deaf people, for that matter? Surely they're only getting half the experience that the rest of us get.

A quick ebay search provides these sets for sale but as a previous poster has pointed out, can they receive broadcasts anymore?..

... they can indeed, if one purchases, for a fairly nominal sum, an RF Modulator https://www.amazon.co.uk/mercury-350-111-RF-Modulator-Grey/dp/B000M6SMKW


In fact Mr Zebra and I purchased something similar (different make I think) last year after buying a 1969 portable telly off eBay This means we can watch authentic 60s black and white films from the Talking Pictures TV channel on Freesat, modulated to an analogue signal on our authentic 60s telly

Sometimes depending on the signal (moreso during advert breaks) we have to adjust the vertical hold a bit cos the picture starts rolling.

I love it. :joyf:

 

[Dr_Baltar]

And while we're on the subject, why do blind people not get a 50% rebate on their license fee?

They do.

 

[bakelite brain]

As a bit of an vintage technology enthusiast, I have rebuilt old radios and TVs. Here's my working Bush TV22 - made in 1952.

For crazies like me there's a box of tricks that converts any TV standard into any other. I can put video from a set-top box, DVD player, etc. and it converts it to a VHF 405-line signal. I only watch (mostly) old films and TV series on it. No licence required.


it.

 

[Andy X]

Splendid! I salute you!

Out of interest do you ever get billets-doux / surprise visits from TV Licensing or have you had your equipment inspected (fnarr)??

 

[bakelite brain]

Splendid! I salute you!

Out of interest do you ever get billets-doux / surprise visits from TV Licensing or have you had your equipment inspected (fnarr)??

Thank you sir!

Don't get me started on the TV licencing goons! (Oh, too late...) I ignore all their threatening letters. One chap did come but I didn't let him in. So he said out loud "access denied" as he typed into his tablet thing. Unless they have a warrant, you are not obliged to let them in, despite them saying stuff like "So you're denying my legal right of access", whether you have a working TV or not!

If they have a warrant, I must permit their entry. I don't believe I have to switch on the set for them, but I must not inhibit their doing so themselves. It will come on with Test Card C (as shown in my post) and to the stupid ones they might take that as proof of a working set taking a broadcast live signal off-air. But the test card is generated within the converter. It would be rather fun to be taken to court with this used as 'evidence' and then reveal that it has not been transmitted in the UK since the 1970s!

 

[Analogue Boy]

As a bit of an vintage technology enthusiast, I have rebuilt old radios and TVs. Here's my working Bush TV22 - made in 1952.

For crazies like me there's a box of tricks that converts any TV standard into any other. I can put video from a set-top box, DVD player, etc. and it converts it to a VHF 405-line signal. I only watch (mostly) old films and TV series on it. No licence required.


it. View attachment 10155

Any other posters here have a working Bush?

 

[Mythopoeika]

Any other posters here have a working Bush?

I have a small one in the back garden.

 

[Andy X]

Thank you sir!

It would be rather fun to be taken to court with this used as 'evidence' and then reveal that it has not been transmitted in the UK since the 1970s!

It would in fact be f**king hilarious!! But I'm assuming you could do without the hassle

 

[Andy X]

I have a small one in the back garden.

That's a shrubbery surely.

 

[Mythopoeika]

That's a shrubbery surely.

The programmes on it are shrubbish, it's true.

 

[Swifty]

I have a small one in the back garden.

Wear warmer trousers.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

They do.

Ah, thank you. I was labouring under the misapprehension that they got a nominal reduction but not as much as the logical 50%, I don't know where I read it (admittedly some years ago) but it's something that I've often thought about whenever reading about the costs of the licence.

 

[Schrodinger's Zebra]

As a bit of an vintage technology enthusiast, I have rebuilt old radios and TVs. Here's my working Bush TV22 - made in 1952.

For crazies like me there's a box of tricks that converts any TV standard into any other. I can put video from a set-top box, DVD player, etc. and it converts it to a VHF 405-line signal. I only watch (mostly) old films and TV series on it. No licence required.


it. View attachment 10155

I want to like this post a squillion times :joyf: (It would have just been a million times, but you saw fit to include a Test Card picture (Test Card C no less) which bumped it up immediately to a squillion likes).

Your box of tricks must be similar to our rf modulator then? How wonderful, is it not, to watch old films on the very devices that people must have watched them on back in the day.

I love anything to do with analogue television. Digital television bores me, quite frankly... well, perhaps bore is a strong word, but... the technology behind it just isn't interesting to me, whereas I could spend all day reading about the workings of analogue television, test cards, and the like.

 

[Nemo]

As a bit of an vintage technology enthusiast, I have rebuilt old radios and TVs. Here's my working Bush TV22 - made in 1952.

For crazies like me there's a box of tricks that converts any TV standard into any other. I can put video from a set-top box, DVD player, etc. and it converts it to a VHF 405-line signal. I only watch (mostly) old films and TV series on it. No licence required.


it. View attachment 10155

Liked if only for the TV & the 'Phone.

 

[PeteByrdie]

HELP!!!

So a while ago my other half left and took the TV with her. I didn't care because I don't watch TV much. So I looked into it extremely carefully, and I only need a licence for watching live TV or BBC iplayer. I was fine with that. So I cancelled my licence.

So then, near the end of last month, I decided to catch up on the marvel movies I've missed. I went on to Amazon and bought Endgame, Captain Marvel, and rented Spider-man Far From Home. Today, I've got home from work, and they've put a slightly threatening thing through my door saying the property has no licence attached to it, and they're investigating. Waste your time all you like, I thought. But there was a website address for people like me who don't need a licence. So I went on it.

And... suddenly you need a licence for streaming 'live TV' on Amazon prime video. What the hell is does that mean? I'm trying to find a website that clearly states whether I've broken the law. To me, ordering a movies to watch or rent on a streaming service is entirely not the same as live tv. But I can't get clear answers. Does anyone understand this?

 

[INT21]

Also...another thought.
Scientific equipment. There are people still using crappy old B & W sets to act as displays for scientific equipment (i.e. oscilloscopes). I know someone who does this.

TVs do not make good oscilloscopes. They are raster scan devices and only work well at lower frequencies. I have used one for displaying lisou patterns..

But yes, for some applications they do the job. Most early computers used them as a monitor.

 

[INT21]

Oh yes, almost forgot.

Received my free tv license today, and six months refund on the last one.

Eat your hearts out

 

[Ermintruder]

But I can't get clear answers. Does anyone understand this?

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one?

What is live TV and when do I need a licence for it?
Live TV means any programme you watch or record as it’s being shown on TV or live on any online TV service. It’s not just live events like sport, news and music. It covers all programmes on any channel, including soaps, series, documentaries and even movies.

If you’re watching live TV, you need to be covered by a TV Licence:

• if you’re watching on TV or on an online TV service
• for all channels, not just the BBC
• if you record a programme and watch it later
• if you watch a programme on a delay
• to watch or record repeats
• to watch or record programmes on +1, +2 and +24 channels
• to watch live programmes on Red Button services
• even if you already pay for cable, satellite or other TV servicee

An online TV service is any streaming or smart TV service, website or app that lets you watch live TV over the internet. This includes services like All 4, Sky Go, Virgin Media, Now TV, BT TV, Apple TV, YouTube, Amazon Prime Video and ITV Hub.

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

Some of those services show live stuff - Amazon ran a bunch of Premiere League games live over Christmas for example, that were available to anyone with a subscription.

I think you're OK:

"Do I need a TV Licence to watch subscription services like Netflix, Amazon or Now TV?
You don’t need a TV Licence if you only ever use these services to watch on demand or catch up programmes except if you’re watching BBC programmes on iPlayer.
Remember, if you watch or record programmes as they’re being shown on TV, on any channel or TV service, or download or watch any BBC programmes on iPlayer, you need to be covered by a TV Licence.

Live TV means any programme you watch or record as it’s being shown on TV or live on an online TV service. It’s not just live events like sport, news and music. It also covers soaps, series, documentaries and even movies."

https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/faqs/FAQ104

 

[Lobeydosser]

I have a working black and white portable from my student bedsit days - it makes quite a good monitor for a Sinclair zx81 computer. (which is black and white output anyway) - it is extremely light and can be run from a car battery - ideal for a caravan or a shed - maybe there are a few out there on allotments ?
It actually was in daily use till about four or five years ago in my partners very small kitchen - used a relatively small VHS player connected to Tesco's cheapest Freeview box (£15 I seem to recall) as a go between for signal.
I also still have and use a relatively recent (mid 2000's) dvd and VHS recorder (it can transfer VHS to DvD) that will happily act as a go between for any older sets colour or otherwise needing to view modern digital output.
I suspect there could be quite a few at Carbeth - well worth a visit if your in the area - https://www.carbethhutters.co.uk/
These were originally intended as "holiday" homes for soldiers after the first world war - some have now become quite elaborate, but they are still basically glorified garden huts relying on batteries or solar power and the like. If I ever was lucky enough to get my hands on one (the waiting list is massive), i'd probably dust of the wee black and white portable and a car battery.

 

[Ermintruder]

it is extremely light and can be run from a car battery

UK TV licensing originally would've considered this to be portable and therefore licence-exempt (in the broad sense that an elephant is also 'portable'...size is not the defining criterion, off-grid for power & antenna/aerial connection is more-important)

 

[INT21]

I have a working black and white portable from my student bedsit days - it makes quite a good monitor for a Sinclair zx81 computer. (which is black and white output anyway) - it is extremely light and can be run from a car battery - ideal for a caravan or a shed - maybe there are a few out there on allotments ?
It actually was in daily use till about four or five years ago in my partners very small kitchen - used a relatively small VHS player connected to Tesco's cheapest Freeview box (£15 I seem to recall) as a go between for signal.
I also still have and use a relatively recent (mid 2000's) dvd and VHS recorder (it can transfer VHS to DvD) that will happily act as a go between for any older sets colour or otherwise needing to view modern digital output.
I suspect there could be quite a few at Carbeth - well worth a visit if your in the area - https://www.carbethhutters.co.uk/
These were originally intended as "holiday" homes for soldiers after the first world war - some have now become quite elaborate, but they are still basically glorified garden huts relying on batteries or solar power and the like. If I ever was lucky enough to get my hands on one (the waiting list is massive), i'd probably dust of the wee black and white portable and a car battery.

.. but they are still basically glorified garden huts ..

Chalets, if you don't mind.

 

[Lobeydosser]

The huts remark was meant as a compliment - I always fancied having one like Lionel Jeffries had in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang -head to India every day

 

[Victory]

HELP!!!

So a while ago my other half left and took the TV with her. I didn't care because I don't watch TV much. So I looked into it extremely carefully, and I only need a licence for watching live TV or BBC iplayer. I was fine with that. So I cancelled my licence.

So then, near the end of last month, I decided to catch up on the marvel movies I've missed. I went on to Amazon and bought Endgame, Captain Marvel, and rented Spider-man Far From Home. Today, I've got home from work, and they've put a slightly threatening thing through my door saying the property has no licence attached to it, and they're investigating. Waste your time all you like, I thought. But there was a website address for people like me who don't need a licence. So I went on it.

And... suddenly you need a licence for streaming 'live TV' on Amazon prime video. What the hell is does that mean? I'm trying to find a website that clearly states whether I've broken the law. To me, ordering a movies to watch or rent on a streaming service is entirely not the same as live tv. But I can't get clear answers. Does anyone understand this?

Best to ask Citizens Advice Bureau.