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U.S. Sizing Up Iran?

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How long have you got? Some resistance forces have been fighting since 1980, but the war intervened, making things difficult. I wouldn't say they are close to winning but its difficult to tell. I posted a lot of stuff about the Iranian resistance before, possibly on this thread.

My point is that any strike against Iran is likely to cause widescale civilian casualties and is unlikely to get all of the nuclear facilities etc. It would also strengthen the grip the Mullahs have on Iran. Stirring up Nationalism.
 
ramonmercado said:
How long have you got? Some resistance forces have been fighting since 1980, but the war intervened, making things difficult. I wouldn't say they are close to winning but its difficult to tell. I posted a lot of stuff about the Iranian resistance before, possibly on this thread.

My point is that any strike against Iran is likely to cause widescale civilian casualties and is unlikely to get all of the nuclear facilities etc. It would also strengthen the grip the Mullahs have on Iran. Stirring up Nationalism.

but isn't assisting revolutionaries (assuming that they were likely to achieve the goals quickly enough) going to have the same effect? it would hardly be a bloodless revolution and the resistance could easily be damned as a tool of the zionist/crusader alliance thus limiting support.
 
its likely that those who are killed will be the mullahs and their supporters. Some people already damn the resistance as puppets of whatever you have got. "RESPECT" & the SWP are particularly good at this.

So, yes its unlikely to be bloodless, but perhaps more deserving blood will be spilt in the overthrow of the Mullahs. Anyway thats for the Iranian Resistance, they will continue their struggle regardless of our discussions here.
 
ramonmercado said:
its likely that those who are killed will be the mullahs and their supporters. Some people already damn the resistance as puppets of whatever you have got. "RESPECT" & the SWP are particularly good at this.

So, yes its unlikely to be bloodless, but perhaps more deserving blood will be spilt in the overthrow of the Mullahs. Anyway thats for the Iranian Resistance, they will continue their struggle regardless of our discussions here.

true but then that doesn't solve the issue of what action would be appropriate if it seemed likely that iran was about to develop a nuclear weapon. and by being damned as puppets i mean in iran rather than the west - the self-same nationalism that we fear to provoke will be used against the resistance.
 
Well, I dont think so. The nationalism gets stirred up if Iran is threatened from outside. Inside the threat will be against the ruling junta. The opposition would not be seen as a threat to the country itself.
 
ramonmercado said:
Well, I dont think so. The nationalism gets stirred up if Iran is threatened from outside. Inside the threat will be against the ruling junta. The opposition would not be seen as a threat to the country itself.

but they are a threat from the outside - or at least that's what the people of iran will be told by those threatened.
 
Lets review:

Are Iraq and Iran the same situation? Nope Saddam had attacked two countries, was under UN sanctions and a peace armistice (which he didn't follow) Until recently Iran wasn't under any type of sanction nor has it attacked anyone.

The Iranian problem is they have made open and clear remarks about attacking a UN member, they are also developing nuclear weapons, they also support terrorists who have made it plain that they wish to destroy Isreal, and they are on a mission from god....that isn't a good equation.

And we know how missions from God often work out.

Resistence? They are there but impotent, better yet are the minorities, but the Mullahs have enough militia to back them up and keep the minorities under control.

Other issues, disarm Israeli,? okay lets say you disarm Israeli (unlikely) and force it into its 1967 borders - unrelenting terrorism is unleased on them - will UK forces be there to defend them? I don't think so. As ungainly as is the two state solution is the only workable plan but that has a problem, fundamentalist on both sides.
 
Hanslune said:
they are also developing nuclear weapons

Not necessarily.

Iran has a fundamental need for an alternative energy source, for many reasons. First and foremost, Iran must support a rapidly growing industrial sector and a demographic explosion. Second, its oil extraction infrastructures are, suprisingly, in tatter, and are barely able to meet international demand. And thirdly, the only way for Iran to actualy make money out of its own oil is by selling it to foreigners, not by using it themselves. So we cannot expect this oil rich country to use its own fuel to power its own economy and expending population

So Iran is looking forward to a booming energy demand, and cannot use oil to supply itself. The only viable solution would be nuclear energy. That, or an economical recession and ensuing crippling poverty.

On the other hand, Iran does not have an inalienable right to nuclear energy. Tthe so-called right to nuclear technology and know-how found in Article IV of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, which Iran signed, is conditioned on a state behaving "in conformity with articles I and II" of the treaty - articles which prohibit activities that lead to nuclear weapons proliferation. Add to this fact that, during the negotiations over the NPT, specific proposals were rejected that would have made it a "duty" for weapon states to aid non-weapon states with nuclear technology transfers and know-how. The point is that Article IV should not be interpreted as giving non-weapon states a presumptive title to such transfers. The NPT is, after all, a treaty against proliferation, not for nuclear development.

Secondly, Iran kept its nuclear reserches secret and lied about it for 20 years. Coupled with its support and control of terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and probably others, we have every reasons to assume that Iran is gulty until proven otherwise. Western countries have no reasons to trust Iran one bit, and they are entierely justified in their suspicions and sanctions, and potential enforcement of those sanctions.

And I'd like to point out that States are not moral individuals, so moral rules such has "innocent until proven guilty" cannot apply to them. States have no duty to be generous, compationate, or to aby by any laws or rules whatsoever, unless they have something to gain. Scholars and intellectuals have tried for more than a century to try and determine the behavior of States, but they failed at it. The best that they came up with is the concept of State as rational actors. States are expected to act in their own interest, and if you want to predict the next move of a State, try and understand what are its interests.

In Iran's case, the 100$ question is, is it in its interest to develop nuclear weapons? Being aware of the new preemptive strike doctrine of the americans, knowing that they have a good shot at being a regional superpower in one of the world's most vital energical and cultural region, and having openly admited their goal of opposing western interests in the region (this include, among other things, our essential but questionable support to Israel's existence), and knowing that North Korea wasn't punished for its own nuclear developpment, I'd say that Iran will probably develop nuclear weapons.

Knowing this, in my opinion, the West could, and should, very well mount a coalition to put astop to Iran's nuclear project for the sake of the security of its own regional interests, for Europe and Isreal's security, to uphold the NPT and do something proactive to curb a nuclear proliferation that might spiral out of control, and to enforce U.N sanctions, thus saveguarding some of the credibility of this organisation.

On the other hand, I dont expect Iran to give up its nuclear project, for the economical reasons I mentioned above.

It would all be much simpler if the venture in Irak would have worked out...
 
Good summary Iggore.

The problem arises in how to stop them. As they have dispersed the production and people involved, it is fairly difficult to deal the effort a killing blow. You could delay it but as long as they have the will and the trained personnel they can carry on.

Even a world supported embargo would probably not stop them.

End result

I would suggest that Israel will take multiple nuclear hits prior to 2015. A limited Isreali counter-strike will occur too. The GCC will feel compelled to seek nuclear weapons, probably buying the knowledge from Pakistan.

On Iraq at some point the Iraqis will sort themselves out, the Kurds have already done so and will continue in their quasi-state to the north. Sunnis and Shia will separate in a 1923 type Greek/Turkish deal - unfortunately this will take 5-10 years.
 
A bit off topic but it suggests that some Iranians dont obey Allah. It must be difficult to combat HIV/AIDS in a country where you put your life at risk when you admit to having sex outside of marriage.

Commercial Sex Trade For Discounted Fashion Clothing In Iran Hampering Efforts To Fight HIV/AIDS
Main Category: HIV / AIDS News
Article Date: 08 Jan 2007 - 21:00 PST


The "increasingly common" practice in Tehran, Iran, between commercial sex workers and shopkeepers of trading sex for no-cost or discounted fashion clothing is undermining efforts to fight the spread of HIV in the country, according to health education workers, London's Guardian reports.

Full story at link.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medical ... wsid=60235
 
The spread of HIV in the muslim world is much faster than reported. The wealthier states import prostitutes and plane loads of young Arab men going to Thailand and Manila are legendary. The inshallah principle applies to catching HIV. The most alcoholic, drug addicted, sex addled people I ever worked with were the Saudis.
 
Iggore said:
So Iran is looking forward to a booming energy demand, and cannot use oil to supply itself.

maybe not quite looking forward as such

Pollution threat in Tehran 'bad as huge quake'
Officials in Tehran have warned that the city's notoriously polluted air could cause a catastrophe after figures showed 120 people a day had died from toxic fumes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 38,00.html
 
Iran imports most of its gasoline. It lacks the refining capacity to produce much of its own diesel, POL and avaition grade fuels.
 
I believe the entire region should be nuclear free & anything done to Iran to stop it from developing nuclear weapons ought also be done to Israel for having developed them....in secret..by the way,which I might add, sort of kills any arguement that they developed them as a deterent!
 
waitew said:
I believe the entire region should be nuclear free & anything done to Iran to stop it from developing nuclear weapons ought also be done to Israel for having developed them....in secret..by the way,which I might add, sort of kills any arguement that they developed them as a deterent!

is the secretive nature not to avoid UN sanction or the infringement of the NPT? they've had the bomb for long enough that if they had developed it for attack purposes they would have used it by now, surely?
 
Israel is not a signatory to the NPT, therefore they cannot be in breach of it. And what UN sanctions? Do you seriously believe the US with their veto on the Security Council would allow sanctions against Israel?
 
misterwibble said:
Israel is not a signatory to the NPT, therefore they cannot be in breach of it. And what UN sanctions? Do you seriously believe the US with their veto on the Security Council would allow sanctions against Israel?

right enough. still they've been suspected of having them for 30+ years now and they've been involved in plenty of conflicts yet haven't used them. i don't doubt that they would if they felt it necessary but they're clearly not using them to attack, at least not directly - the capacity to attack that having a strong defence gives you rather blurs the distinction.
 
Someones got big plans.

The Pentagon also announced it is proposing to Congress that the size of the Army be increased by 65,000, to 547,000 and that the Marine Corps, the smallest of the services, grow by 27,000, to 202,000, over the next five years. No cost estimate was provided, but officials said it would be at least several billion dollars.

Until now, the Pentagon's policy on the Guard or Reserve was that members' cumulative time on active duty for the Iraq or Afghan wars could not exceed 24 months. That cumulative limit is now lifted; the remaining limit is on the length of any single mobilization, which may not exceed 24 consecutive months, Pace said.

In other words, a citizen-soldier could be mobilized for a 24-month stretch in Iraq or
Afghanistan, then demobilized and allowed to return to civilian life, only to be mobilized a second time for as much as an additional 24 months. In practice, Pace said, the Pentagon intends to limit all future mobilizations to 12 months.

Members of the Guard combat brigades that have served in Iraq in recent years spent 18 months on active duty — about six months in pre-deployment training in the United States, followed by about 12 months in Iraq. Under the old policy, they could not be sent back to Iraq because their cumulative time on active duty would exceed 24 months. Now that cumulative limit has been lifted, giving the Pentagon more flexibility.

The new approach, Pace said, is to squeeze the training, deployment and demobilization into a maximum of 12 months. He called that a "significant planning factor" for Guard and Reserve members and their families.

A senior U.S. military official who briefed reporters Thursday on Iraq-related developments said that by next January, the Pentagon "probably will be calling again" on National Guard combat brigades that previously served yearlong tours in Iraq. Under Pentagon ground rule, the official could not be further identified.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates, appearing with Pace, announced several other changes in Guard and Reserve policy:

_Although the Pentagon's goal is to mobilize Guard and Reserve units no more frequently than one year out of six, the demands of wartime will require calling up some units more often than that. They provided no details on how many units would be remobilized at the faster pace or when that would begin to happen.

Army officials had been saying for some time that more frequent mobilizations were necessary because the active-duty force is being stretched too thin. Gates' announcement is the first confirmation of the change.

_To allow for more cohesion among Guard and Reserve units sent into combat, they will be deployed as whole units, rather than as partial units or as individuals plugged into a unit they do not normally train with.

_Extra pay will be provided for Guard and Reserve troops who are required to mobilize more than once in six years; active-duty troops who get less than two years between overseas deployments also will get extra pay. Details were not provided.

_Military commanders will review their administration of a hardship waiver program "to ensure that they have properly taken into account exceptional circumstances facing military families of deployed service members."

As part of Bush's plan for boosting U.S. troop strength in Iraq, a brigade of National Guard soldiers from Minnesota will have its yearlong tour in Iraq extended by 125 days, to the end of July, and a Patriot missile battalion will be sent to the Persian Gulf next month, the Army said Thursday.

Maj. Randy Taylor, a spokesman for the 3rd Battalion, 43rd Air Defense Artillery Regiment, at Fort Bliss, Texas, said the Patriot unit was aware of the announced deployment. He said no formal order had been received Thursday.

The dispatching of a Patriot missile battery, capable of defending against shorter-range ballistic missile attacks, appeared linked to Bush's announcement Wednesday that he ordered an aircraft carrier strike group to the Middle East, which would be in easy reach of
Iran, whose nuclear program is a U.S. concern.

Navy officials said the carrier heading to the Gulf region is the USS John C. Stennis, which previously had been in line to deploy to the Pacific. It was not clear Thursday how the Pentagon intended to compensate in the Pacific for the absence of the Stennis in that region, where a chief worry is
North Korea.

The Marines announced that two infantry units — the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, and the 1st Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment — will stay in Iraq 60 to 90 days longer than scheduled. That will enable the Marines to have a total of eight infantry battalions in western Anbar province, instead of the current six, by February. Once the 60- to 90-day extension is over, an additional two battalions will be sent in early from their U.S. bases.

Also, the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which combines infantry with a helicopter squadron and a logistics battalion, totaling about 2,200 Marines, will stay in Anbar for 45 more days.

Those extensions conform with Bush's announcement that he was ordering 4,000 more Marines to Anbar.

The military tries to avoid extending combat tours and sending forces earlier than planned because it disrupts the lives of troops and their families and makes it harder for the services to get all troops through the education and training programs they need for promotions. But in this case it was deemed unavoidable.
 
Then this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-cle ... 38451.html

Washington intelligence, military and foreign policy circles are abuzz today with speculation that the President, yesterday or in recent days, sent a secret Executive Order to the Secretary of Defense and to the Director of the CIA to launch military operations against Syria and Iran.

The President may have started a new secret, informal war against Syria and Iran without the consent of Congress or any broad discussion with the country.

The bare outlines of that order may have appeared in President Bush's Address to the Nation last night outlining his new course on Iraq:

Succeeding in Iraq also requires defending its territorial integrity and stabilizing the region in the face of extremist challenges. This begins with addressing Iran and Syria. These two regimes are allowing terrorists and insurgents to use their territory to move in and out of Iraq. Iran is providing material support for attacks on American troops. We will disrupt the attacks on our forces. We'll interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria. And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq.

We're also taking other steps to bolster the security of Iraq and protect American interests in the Middle East. I recently ordered the deployment of an additional carrier strike group to the region. We will expand intelligence-sharing and deploy Patriot air defense systems to reassure our friends and allies. We will work with the governments of Turkey and Iraq to help them resolve problems along their border. And we will work with others to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons and dominating the region.

Adding fuel to the speculation is that U.S. forces today raided an Iranian Consulate in Arbil, Iraq and detained five Iranian staff members. Given that Iran showed little deference to the political sanctity of the US Embassy in Tehran 29 years ago, it would be ironic for Iran to hyperventilate much about the raid.

But what is disconcerting is that some are speculating that Bush has decided to heat up military engagement with Iran and Syria -- taking possible action within their borders, not just within Iraq.

Some are suggesting that the Consulate raid may have been designed to try and prompt a military response from Iran -- to generate a casus belli for further American action.

If this is the case, the debate about adding four brigades to Iraq is pathetic. The situation will get even hotter than it now is, worsening the American position and exposing the fact that to fight Iran both within the borders of Iraq and into Iranian territory, there are not enough troops in the theatre.

Bush may really have pushed the escalation pedal more than any of us realize.

-- Steve Clemons is Senior Fellow and Director of the American Strategy Program at the New America
 
The US is downgrading its navy and airforce and increasing its deployable land forces -which it will need for the type of conflict it is now involved in.

It is rumored that the Isrealis threaten to use nukes on the Syrian armoured attack on the Golan in '73. This may be one reason the US airlifted in TOW and other supplies-to keep the Isreali Phantom delievered 25 kt weapon from being used.

At one time it was thought that the Isreali nukes were an intelligence ploy, created to scarce the Arabs from using gas or bio.

The Isrealis might give up their nukes but only if they had ironclad assurances from the Arabs they wouldn't attack-ie a general demobilization, acceptance of Isreal, normalization of trade and a stable non threatening Palestinian state. None of these are foresee able in the near term.

With a nuclear armed Iran the Arabs will probably arm themselves with nukes also. The Arabs may dislike their cousins but they have been at odds with the Persians for thousands of years.
 
to be lobbed into the dossier marked "pretext"?

U.S.: Iranian Detainees Had Ties to Insurgent Group

Five Iranians arrested in northern Iraq last week were connected to an Iranian Revolutionary Guard faction that funds and arms insurgents in Iraq, the U.S. military said Sunday.

The five were detained by U.S.-led forces Thursday in a raid on an Iranian government liaison office in Irbil, a city in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq 217 miles north of Baghdad.

continues

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,243618,00.html
 
A pretext? But Iran is clearly supporting and sponsoring terrorist militias in Irak, which are murdering american and irakian soldiers (See here, here and here). So why should America limit its military attacks against terrorists and their supply lines within Iraq and refrain from attacking the source of those terrorists and supply lines?

A terrorist-sponsoring Shiite state is supplying Shiite militias in Iraq with weapons and training. And yet rather than go on the offensive and take the fight to the source -- Iran -- Bush is betting that "moderate" Shiite Islamists in Iraq will somehow decide to crack down on the murderous Shiite Islamists. It doesn't make sense.
 
The religion is about the same but the culture and language are different. The Persians and Arabs go way way back in "who shot John" terms.

The Iraqi Shia were the foot soldiers against the Iranians for eight years in the first Gulf war.
 
I know, but how much is this going to curtail Iran's influence, we'll see. In the face of a perceived american imperialism and disintegrating iraky national identity, allegiances might change.
 
Iggore said:
A pretext? But Iran is clearly supporting and sponsoring terrorist militias in Irak, which are murdering american and irakian soldiers (See here, here and here). So why should America limit its military attacks against terrorists and their supply lines within Iraq and refrain from attacking the source of those terrorists and supply lines?

A terrorist-sponsoring Shiite state is supplying Shiite militias in Iraq with weapons and training. And yet rather than go on the offensive and take the fight to the source -- Iran -- Bush is betting that "moderate" Shiite Islamists in Iraq will somehow decide to crack down on the murderous Shiite Islamists. It doesn't make sense.

well it would be a pretext given that they could withdraw american troops if they were worried about sustaining casualties. the fact that they suspect iran of developing a nuclear weapon must also be an influence in any aggressive posture. for the time being at least there would be no legal framework for attacking iran for this reason.
 
I still say you are better off supporting the Iranian Resistance. They oppose the development of nuclear weapons by the Mullahs but they also oppose US military intervention. Give them the means (through 3rd parties)to take out the sites. Their intelligence is probably better as well.

Is there anything illegal about a resistanceacting against an illegitimate government?
 
Iggore said:
In which context would it become legal then?

well presumably at the point where the united nations would give permission for military intervention. the US knows that russia and china will drag its feet on this issue so they probably won't get it until it's too late.
 
The americans supported insurgent groups on every continent this past 60 years, so I dont think that they're really worried over the legality of it all, and I dont think that they should. Legality isn't really that important concerning an issues such as this, because nobody has the power to uphold any laws in the international system.

So complexing over legality sounds a bit trivial, in my opinion. The only purpose to act "within the law" is to look good and drag popular support and legitimacy with you, thats all. Is popular international support needed in this case? Yes, moreso than with Irak. But we'll probably reach a point where the americans will have to act alone, regardless of what the international community thinks, and they will have to shoulder the burden of the conflict on their own. Yet, they're already at the breaking point...

Could iranian insurgent groups do much damage without direct american military support?
 
if the bush administration drags america further into a war which has little backing including the US then the republicans risk being out of power for a generation. they need domestic support at least, hence the neccessity for a pretext rather than international clearance.
 
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