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Vampires

EnolaGaia said:
Agreed ... I think the label "vampire" is being thrown around out of proportion to the actual involvement of blood-drinking folklore in these practices. The overlay of 19th / 20th century fictional tropes has distorted our view of historical beliefs and motivations.
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I remember having read the 17th century investigation report of an Austrian doctor on vampiric cases in the Balkans, and the "vampires" then, were described simply as dangerous undead and not especially as blood suckers. This aspect got developed later in Western litterature.

So I do not think it is abusive to call the polish corpse as a "vampire". It is our modern association of blood sucking with vampires which is abusive.

From the Austrian report I mention above, I remember the case of a family who saw the recently dead father coming back home for dinner. The son told the others to go to bed, and stayed with his undead father, and the following morning, he was dead. There was no mention of blood sucking. This case was nonetheless described as vampiric by the locals.

It is very similar to the Norse belief in "draugr".
 
AmStramGram said:
I remember having read the 17th century investigation report of an Austrian doctor on vampiric cases in the Balkans, and the "vampires" then, were described simply as dangerous undead and not especially as blood suckers. This aspect got developed later in Western litterature.

So I do not think it is abusive to call the polish corpse as a "vampire". It is our modern association of blood sucking with vampires which is abusive.

From the Austrian report I mention above, I remember the case of a family who saw the recently dead father coming back home for dinner. The son told the others to go to bed, and stayed with his undead father, and the following morning, he was dead. There was no mention of blood sucking. This case was nonetheless described as vampiric by the locals.

It is very similar to the Norse belief in "draugr".
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So you're saying the word 'vampire', in one of its many forms, originally referred to a revenant without the association with exsanguination? I don't know much about the origin of the word, but what you say fits what I've read of early revenant legends from medieval northern Europe.

However, in news reports about burials seemingly designed to lay the unquiet dead, I think the word is entirely intended to produce the inference in readers that they were thought to be, essentially, horror movie vampires. It's not the technical accuracy we calling into question (well, perhaps a bit), but the intention behind the use of the word in these frequent articles.

Of course, we'll know more when a stake is removed from one and suddenly a team of archaeologists become the first victims of a vampire plague.
 
AmStramGram said:
Wow ! That would make a wonderful concept for a horror movie !

(And of course, at the end of the movie, only the virgin, garlic-eating, geek archeologist of the team would survive)
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Unfortunately, I'm sure the 'stake is removed from the corpse and it resurrects' plot-line has been done, or I wouldn't have thought of it. I'm sure it's happened in a Dracula movie at some point.
 
AmStramGram said:
No problem at all. Movie producers love remakes. As long as it makes money, they do not care.
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Well, start on the screenplay. You have my blessing. I see it as a comedy. Vampire lord out of time, inept scientists dealing with a vampire plague, deniers saying it's all a conspiracy and wearing protective collars is against their human rights, etc.
 
PeteByrdie said:
So you're saying the word 'vampire', in one of its many forms, originally referred to a revenant without the association with exsanguination? I don't know much about the origin of the word, but what you say fits what I've read of early revenant legends from medieval northern Europe. ...
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The origins and usage of the label "vampire" are complicated. There are two themes interwoven in the concept as we commonly invoke it - a malevolent undead entity and a malevolent habit of drinking the blood of the living. Both these themes have long histories, and it's not clear when (or how often) they were intrinsically linked.

Here's what the Online Etymology Dictionary has to say about "vampire":
vampire (n.)

spectral being in a human body who maintains semblance of life by leaving the grave at night to suck the warm blood of the living as they sleep, 1732, vampyre, from French vampire (18c.) or German Vampir (1732, like the English word first in an account of Hungarian vampires), from Hungarian vampir, from Old Church Slavonic opiri (source also of Serbian vampir, Bulgarian vapir, Ukrainian uper), said by Slavic linguist Franc Miklošič to be ultimately from Kazan Tatar ubyr "witch," but Max Vasmer, an expert in this linguistic area, finds that phonetically doubtful.

An Eastern European creature popularized in English by late 19c. gothic novels, however there are scattered English accounts of night-walking, blood-gorged, plague-spreading undead corpses from as far back as 1196. Figurative sense of "person who preys on others" is from 1741. Applied 1774 by French biologist Buffon to a species of South American blood-sucking bat. ...
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The dictionary entry includes this quote from a 1732 pamphlet, though it doesn't state this is the origin of the linked undead / blood-sucker connotations of the label:
MR. D'Anvers tells of a Conversation he had about a certain Prodigy, mention'd in the News Papers of March last, viz. that in the Village of Medreyga in Hungary, certain dead Bodies (call'd there Vampyres) had kill'd several Persons by sucking out all their Blood : That Arnold Paul, an Heyduke, having kill'd four Persons after he was dead, his Body was taken up 40 Days after, which bled at the Nose, Mouth and Ears : That, according to Custom, they drove a Stake thro' his Heart, at which he gave horrid Groan, and lost a great deal of Blood. And that all such as have been tormented or kill'd by Vampyres, become Vampyres when they are dead. [London Journal, May 20, 1732, quoted in Weekly Essays, May 1732]
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SOURCE: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=vampire
 
Different forms of predatory undead (or supernatural) entities can be found in folklore and myths worldwide and dating back to ancient times ...

Tales of the undead consuming the blood or flesh of living beings have been found in nearly every culture around the world for many centuries. Today these entities are predominantly known as vampires, but in ancient times, the term vampire did not exist; blood drinking and similar activities were attributed to demons or spirits who would eat flesh and drink blood; even the devil was considered synonymous with the vampire. Almost every nation has associated blood drinking with some kind of revenant or demon, from the ghouls of Arabia to the goddess Sekhmet of Egypt. Indeed, some of these legends could have given rise to the European folklore, though they are not strictly considered vampires by historians when using today's definitions.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_folklore_by_region
 
An Eastern European creature popularized in English by late 19c. gothic novels, however there are scattered English accounts of night-walking, blood-gorged, plague-spreading undead corpses from as far back as 1196. ...
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The allusion fo 12th century documentation almost certainly refers to William of Newburgh's (died 1198) historical writings. In Book Five of his history compendium (Chapters 22 - 24) he relates multiple stories of revenants who returned from their graves to make mischief until they were finally dispatched (typically by burning).

There is one story in which the revenant was found gorged with blood in his grave. This particular revenant was blamed for multiple deaths, but not from sucking the blood of the living. Instead, the ongoing deaths were blamed on the pestilence of his foul decomposing corpse.

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/williamofnewburgh-five.asp
 

Is it OK to drink blood?​


Whether you’re channeling your inner Morbius or Dracula, chugging a goblet of blood is not a gory practice you’d want to reenact in real life. Blood, a necessity for human life, is ironically poisonous to drink. Medical experts warn you can get very sick from drinking it every day and invite a number of infections into your own supply.

One reason blood is dangerous to human health is it carries risky viruses. “Human blood is a biohazard,” says Laura Purdy, a family medicine physician and chief medical officer of telehealth company OpenLoop. “By exposing ourselves to someone else’s blood, you are potentially exposing yourself to infections that live in the bloodstream.” Just a few drops from the impure liquid is enough to transmit infectious blood-borne diseases such as HIV, hepatitis B, or hepatitis C. You can get syphilis too.

If you’ve ever had a cut in your mouth or tasted a sprinkle of plasma and hemoglobin, you might have realized the sanguine fluid carries a bitter metallic flavor. The metal you taste comes from the high iron levels in blood—a normal range in adults is 60 to 170 micrograms per deciliter. Unlike vampire bats, which have evolved to stomach large doses of iron, humans carry a gene that prevents absorption of the mineral. Barrios says humans cannot properly digest blood and its rich iron content, along with all the nutrients we get from our usual diet. “An excess [of iron] is toxic to humans, and in some cases, even fatal,” she warns. “An overdose of iron can cause severe vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, dehydration, and even death in children.”

Another complication to living out any vampire fantasies: mismatching blood types. In normal circumstances, the consumed blood would be processed and eliminated through your GI tract. However, if someone has an ulcer or another open wound in their digestive system, Purdy says there is a chance of the blood getting mixed into your own. If the other person has a blood type that does not match up, you risk an intense immune reaction. “On the off chance incompatible blood types did mix, red blood cells would break down and form antibodies that attack each other,” she explains.

https://www.popsci.com/health/people-drink-blood/

maximus otter
 
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There is a very Fortean Kickstarter going on right now, purporting to reprint original texts made during the "Great Vampire Debate" of the 1700's, where various people - police, academics, theologians- were engaged in investigating Vampire reports to determineif there were somethingto them or if it were all so much baloney. This is supposed to be the first English translations of these works.

Has anybody here heard of these books, and/or the Great Vampire Debate? It sure seems like these items are real based on reading the project page, but I could also see it just being hoaxed works. I can't do much research via my phone right now...

The Historic Vampire Debate, via @Kickstarter https://www.kickstarter.com/project...oric-vampire-debate?ref=android_project_share
 
MrRING said:
... Has anybody here heard of these books, and/or the Great Vampire Debate? It sure seems like these items are real based on reading the project page, but I could also see it just being hoaxed works. I can't do much research via my phone right now...
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FWIW:

I've encountered references to "vampire debates" here and there over the years, but never delved into it. The impression I drew from these allusions essentially matched the implied description in the Kickstarter presentation ... The label "(great) vampire debate(s)" refers to an 18th century surge of scholarly writings addressing the emergence or dissemination of vampire tales and reports from eastern Europe. These "debates" played out in scholarly writings and publications rather than any conferences or similar events. The parties involved came from a variety of fields (religion; philosophy; medicine; etc.).

As far as I know the "debate(s)" had come and gone by the end of the 18th century. It always struck me as one of those scholarly topical "fads" that come and go.

Since I never delved into the subject, I have nothing to offer regarding the specific books / authors / scholars mentioned in the Kickstarter description. The need for translation aligns with my general impression in the sense that the scholarly interests were mainly located in central and eastern Europe.
 
ramonmercado said:
They've done it!

A new world record has been set for the largest gathering of people dressed as vampires.

A total of 1,369 people attended Whitby Abbey in North Yorkshire dressed as the ghoulish character, breaking the previous record of 1,039 set in 2011.

The event was organised to mark 125 years since Bram Stoker's novel Dracula was published in 1897.

The Gothic horror tale was said to have been inspired by Stoker's trip to Whitby in 1890.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-61597097
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Bat signal at Whitby Abbey.


Images of bats are being projected on to Whitby Abbey as part of events to mark the 125th anniversary of the publication of Dracula.

Whitby and its ruined abbey are key locations in Bram Stoker's 1897 novel. English Heritage, which runs the abbey, said a Dracula-themed theatre act will be performed in the ruins each evening. The organisation said the projection also acknowledges the abbey ruins are home to a colony of bats, a protected species.

In the Dracula novel, Whitby Abbey was the location where Count Dracula comes ashore and it is referenced in the journal of the novel's female protagonist Mina Harker.

A large dog runs up the 199 steps which lead to the abbey after the ship carrying the count's coffin runs aground.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-63383341
 
This Live Science article describes the analysis and facial reconstruction of an 18th century Connecticut man alleged to be a "vampire." One thing this story illustrates is that "vampires" were originally defined in terms of spreading pestilence (in this case, tuberculosis) rather than blood-sucking. Another thing the story mentions is the tactic of removing the femurs and crossing them upon the "vampire's" corpse to prevent its walking about and harming people. I don't recall encountering this leg-removal / bone-crossing bit before.
See the face of an 18th century 'vampire' buried in Connecticut

In the late 18th century, a man was buried in Griswold, Connecticut, with his femur bones arranged in a criss-cross manner — a placement indicating that locals thought he was a vampire. However, little else was known about him. More than 200 years later, DNA evidence is revealing what he may have looked like. (And yes, he was genetically human.)

After performing DNA analyses, forensic scientists from a Virginia-based DNA technology company named Parabon NanoLabs, and the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL), a branch of the U.S. Armed Forces Medical Examiner System based in Delaware, concluded that at the time of death, the deceased male (known as JB55) was about 55 years old and suffered from tuberculosis. Using 3D facial reconstruction software, a forensic artist determined that JB55 likely had fair skin, brown or hazel eyes, brown or black hair and some freckles, according to a statement.

Based on the positioning of the legs and skull in the grave, researchers suspect that at some point the body was disinterred and reburied, a practice often associated with the belief that someone was a vampire. Historically, some people once thought that those who died of tuberculosis were actually vampires, according to the statement.

"The remains were found with the femur bones removed and crossed over the chest," Ellen Greytak, director of bioinformatics at Parabon NanoLabs and the technical lead for the organization’s Snapshot Advanced DNA Analysis division, told Live Science. "This way they wouldn't be able to walk around and attack the living." ...
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FULL STORY: https://www.livescience.com/vampire-burial-dna-connecticut
 

Fear of reanimated corpses may explain mysterious burials at 1,600-year-old cemetery​


Archaeologists in Italy are uncovering a 1,600-year-old burial ground containing the remains of infants, children and sacrificed puppies.

Some of the burials have unusual features — such as a child buried with a block in their mouth, which suggests that people were afraid that they could become "revenants" — corpses revived after death, archaeologists said.

JTLdBSTvBGjURjUPLayurg-1920-80.jpg.webp


This photo shows the skull of a child buried with a block in their mouth at a cemetery in Italy. People had a fear of "revenants," or people rising from the dead. (Image credit: Noelle Soren)

Analysis of the burials indicates that many of the dead suffered from malaria.

In 2018, it was suggested by local individuals that this child may have been viewed as a vampire, but new research suggests that this is inaccurate. The idea of the child being a vampire started among locals who called it the "Vampire of Lugnano" and this idea was spread by the media. Since then, archaeologists have had more time to better understand what exactly the child may have been seen as: a possible revenant.

The cemetery is located in the ruins of a Roman villa at the archaeological site of Poggio Gramignano, in central Italy, that dates to the fifth century A.D., a time when the Western Roman Empire was collapsing. By this time, many people in the Roman Empire had converted to Christianity.

Some of the children were buried in unusual ways. One child, for instance, had a piece of mortar in their mouth, and others seem to have been buried with their limbs weighed down with stones. "There was tremendous fear of revenants and of mysterious forces [such as witches] who might harness the spirits of the dead for their own devices," Soren said. Fear of the undead was common among both Christians and non-Christians from this period.

https://www.livescience.com/fear-of...-mysterious-burials-at-1600-year-old-cemetery

maximus otter
 

'Vampire child' corpse discovered in Polish cemetery with padlock on its ankles to prevent return from the dead​


The remains of a 'vampire child' have been found in a cemetery of lost souls.

Archaeologists uncovered the 17th century skeletal remains lying face down with a triangular padlock attached to its foot in the village of Pień, Poland.

The child is thought to have been around five to seven years old.

Archaeologist Dariusz Poliński from the University of Nicolaus Copernicus said: 'The padlock under the foot symbolises the closing of a stage of life and is meant to protect against the return of the deceased, which was probably feared.”

74046035-12381177-image-a-5_1691417298692.jpg


Near the child's grave, the researchers found a cluster of loose bones belonging to three other children and the fragment of a jaw stained green, which researchers say could have come from a copper coin placed in its mouth.

The latest discoveries were made at the same site where last year the archaeologists found the remains of a 'vampire woman'.

Found less than five feet away, the woman who was thought to have held a high social status was found with a sickle placed over her neck.

The skeleton, also found in Pień by Poliński and his team, also had a padlock on the big toe of her left foot to prevent her from returning from the dead.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...k-attached-ankles-prevent-returning-dead.html

maximus otter
 

9 techniques villagers used to bury people they feared were 'vampires'​


Sickle across throat:

64dd55724ef9f30019f8afd8
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Female "vampire" with protruding tooth and a sickle across her neck. Mirosław Blicharski

Skull and thigh bones arranged on top of ribs:

64da024a5e5d5a00195d341d


An annotated picture shows the placement of the "Connecticut vampire" skull and bones in the grave. Daniels-Higgenbotham, J. et al. 2019, Genes 2019, 10(9), 636; https://doi.org/10.3390/genes10090636; Insider

Etc.

https://www.businessinsider.com/way...T#stones-were-used-to-weigh-the-bodies-down-4

maximus otter
 
maximus otter said:

9 techniques villagers used to bury people they feared were 'vampires'​


Sickle across throat:

64dd55724ef9f30019f8afd8
​

Female "vampire" with protruding tooth and a sickle across her neck. Mirosław Blicharski

Skull and thigh bones arranged on top of ribs:

64da024a5e5d5a00195d341d


An annotated picture shows the placement of the "Connecticut vampire" skull and bones in the grave. Daniels-Higgenbotham, J. et al. 2019, Genes 2019, 10(9), 636; https://doi.org/10.3390/genes10090636; Insider

Etc.

https://www.businessinsider.com/way...T#stones-were-used-to-weigh-the-bodies-down-4

maximus otter
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Their own skull and thigh bones arranged over their own ribs? Or someone else's bones? Because, if their own bones, then they've already rotted down to being bones and it's a bit late then.
 
Reading this thread, it is interesting to see how easy it is for someone with a genuine interest in a subject to jump into the middle of a debate without first thinking about some of the concepts and definitions.

"Vampire" is just a word: a label. We now use this same label for at least three different phenomena:

1) The revenant deceased person known in some European folklore as a vampire (or similar words, different spellings). In a sense, this is the original and "correct" use of the word. However, as Wittgenstein famously said, "The meaning of a word is its use"; use develops, and therefore so does meaning.

2) The very specific entity from modern fiction (post Dracula) which has a number of set characteristics and weaknesses. Folklore does not have to be consistent and seldom tries. Fiction at least tries to be internally consistent.

Folklore is not subject to artificial limits or constraints. A work of fiction is limited by practical considerations such as the number of pages in a typical novel, the length of a typical film. In order to get straight into the story, it helps if the reader/viewer already has a good idea what a vampire is. The book or film may then make some creative changes of detail, but a fictional vampire is always largely what the reader or viewer expects.

The fictional vampire is likely to be physically strong, sleep in a coffin, not be visible in a mirror, be associated in some way with bats and/or wolves, and be vulnerable to sunlight, garlic, and the cross. Typically it can only be killed by a stake through the heart. The fictional vampire drinks blood, and the bite of the fictional vampire passes on the curse. The reader or viewer knows or expects all or most of this when they pick up the book or choose to watch the film.

Players of role playing games such as D&D will recognise the way that creatures with their origins in folklore or specific works of fiction can be tamed and codified into a number of stats, and behaviours. If the D&D party comes up against vampires, or lycanthropes, or wights (etc.) then in each case they will know roughly what to expect. The requirements of the game dictate a degree of consistency that is not found in folklore.

However, the conventions of fiction or gaming may bear little or no relation to some of the broad themes or specific details that feature in some aspects of folklore.

3) Very much a modern thing, which is applying the term "vampire" or "vampiric" to folklore and myth of other cultures and continents, and to archaeological remains. This is a kind of cultural imperialism or elitism: the idea that "our" concepts "must" have their equivalents in other cultures.

The simplest refutation of this type of preconception is surely that in pre-Christian times, vampires would not have been defeated by a crucifix.

This approach accepts almost without question that "people are people wherever you go" but does not pause to consider how very different cultural ideas may develop. Just because a South American belief has 2 characteristics that are similar to a European concept, it does not mean that all other aspects of that belief must be mapped on a 1:1 basis onto the European "equivalent". That would be reductionist and absurd.

To put this another way. Imagine we found that the people of a lost South American culture believed (made up example) that when one of a pair of twins died, the other had to be killed and buried with them, or the deceased would come back and suck the life out of the surviving one. After that, the two dead twins would both attack their surviving family members. This was a called a (made up word) Quertyotltec. How annoyed would we feel if South American folklorists and archaeologists insisted on calling all European folkloric revenants "Qwertyotlecs"?
 
I have not really studied vampires so would welcome opinions. Is the short story 'Good Lady Duckayne' by Mary E Braddon ( 4 October 1835 – 4 February 1915) regarded as part of this genre? Can't make my mind up.

 
Mr Bleak said:
I have not really studied vampires so would welcome opinions. Is the short story 'Good Lady Duckayne' by Mary E Braddon ( 4 October 1835 – 4 February 1915) regarded as part of this genre? Can't make my mind up.
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Yes, yes I think so. Nice find :)
 
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