Uncanny (BBC Programme / Podcast)

[MorningAngel]

Yup, that idea that ghosts take the paths they knew in life, notwithstanding changes in building structure or ground level. They even walk up long-removed staircases and across demolished floors.

This aspect of hauntings fascinates me, especially as I have been given first-hand accounts of it by people I trust. My very favourite Fortean phenomenon, in fact.

Ghosts vs time slips, what if you’re seeing someone going about their life at a different time layered over your own time?

 

[DrPaulLee]

From "Holkham" by Christine Hiskey.

It should be noted that the ghost, either visible or as an invisible prankster has been seen in other areas of the hall too

 

[catseye]

Ghosts vs time slips, what if you’re seeing someone going about their life at a different time layered over your own time?

I think this is the theory that is finding favour with me at the moment. When they 'vanish' suddenly, they are going behind something that was there in their time, but not in ours (a wall, a building, even just a piece of furniture).

 

[escargot]

Well, the ghost at Holkham seems to be pretty well identified. It terrorised the poor girl who slept in her old bedroom!

Of course. We have the word of Lady Glenconner, a former royal Lady in Waiting, that self-proclaimed gay icon in America.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Don't forget, Uncanny TV starts tonight at 21:00 on BBC2.

 

[Tempest63]

Don't forget, Uncanny TV starts tonight at 21:00 on BBC2.

Thanks. Just put it on to record.

 

[Swifty]

You need to come here and ...examine my customers. Or advise them on proper bike wear!

Are you being over run with 'Terry Wogans' at the moment catseye?.

 

[SleepyPanda]

Are you being over run with 'Terry Wogans' at the moment catseye?.

Does that mean what I think it means? Bleurrrggh.

 

[Sollywos]

I enjoyed the programme! I thought it was well balanced a very intriguing episode!

 

[Timble2]

Thought that was very well done. Two new cases, not the classics revisited and proper investigation and a balanced consideration of the explanations: hallucination (possibly induced by mould) and suggestion, real ghosts, or time-slips. Given the reaction of the old man ghost to meeting the young (20th century) girl, did he and Miss Howard, think the house was haunted by three young girls?

 

[Swifty]

Does that mean what I think it means? Bleurrrggh.

He was rumoured to have 'a big one' after footage of him was shown, with trousers on and a large bulge. I'd have to agree although I won't be linking to it here. I'll leave you to google that incident. Full respect to him though. It did look like a whopper. We should return to conversation about Uncanny instead I think but that was an amusing aside for a moment.

 

[gattino]

Best and most surprising thing about it for me was actually locating one of the witnesses in the (I had always assumed) fabled Bold Street time slip stories.

In all the years ive seen the story...or rather stories...repeated in various media the fact they never ever gave a full name and the witnesses never appeared anywhere to give their testimony first hand, lead me to confidently believe they were all bs dreamt up and promulgated by Tom Slemen. To find out that isn't the case, at least in this instance, was a real revelation and I gladly eat my words.

 

[Sollywos]

To find out that isn't the case, at least in this instance, was a real revelation and I gladly eat my words.

Yes I enjoyed that bit but as I've just said on the Timeslip thread we still can't be sure as she may have made it up for the sake of getting on the telly. I would like her to be genuine of course

 

[kesavaross]

Do any forum members know how many time slip cases there has been along Bold Street?

There seems to have been quite a few or am I confusing other time slip cases with Bold Street and there's only been the one.

 

[gattino]

The other famous one is a petty thief or shop lifter being chased by a copper down a side street off Bold Street

 

[Sollywos]

There seems to have been quite a few or am I confusing other time slip cases with Bold Street and there's only been the one.

Oh there have been a fair few I don't know if anyone has kept a tally. Well I expect Tom Slemen has. I'm inclined to believe they can't all be fabrications although no doubt some of them have been spawned from others with a good imagination and the power of expectation/reputation.

 

[Sollywos]

One thing that I'd like to know is how do the current occupiers of the house feel about the programme now it's been broadcast? I fully understand why they did not want the cameras intruding on their lives and it was obliging of them not to object to their home being featured but I wonder how much they knew they were letting themselves in for? Are they believers or sceptics has the programme changed their minds one way or the other? Must be an odd situation to be in. Maybe they got a good fee.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Wasn't hugely impressed with the Miss Howard story. I think Ciarán O'Keeffe was spot-on in explaining how the fact that the Howards were tradespeople in the town meant the family was an integral part of the local history and who can say that any of the witnesses hadn't seen slightly creepy old black and white photos of Nora Howard and their young girl's imagination filled in the rest? Also the description of a tall woman didn't really tally with the fairly short woman (who barely came up to the young man's shoulder) in the photo.
Great to see historical footage of the Philip experiment and Danny's new take on it.
The absolute highlight for me was finding Julie, the Bold Street timeslip witness!

 

[Dick Turpin]

The other famous one is a petty thief or shop lifter being chased by a copper down a side street off Bold Street

Yeah that was an interesting tale. It was a security officer chasing the shoplifter who went on record to say he saw the thief run down a side ally, and when he also turned into the ally the thief hasd completely disappeared with nowhere he could have gone to.

 

[gattino]

I think Ciarán O'Keeffe was spot-on in explaining how the fact that the Howards were tradespeople in the town meant the family was an integral part of the local history and who can say that any of the witnesses hadn't seen slightly creepy old black and white photos of Nora Howard and their young girl's imagination filled in the rest?

To me that claim is a bit of a stretch. "Who's can say x didn't happen" can cover all things. If i understood the claims presented in the show correctly (big if), Kate knew/understood without knowing how that the apparition she was experiencing was called Miss Howard. And the mother of the two girls who lived their previously said in her blog post that they collectively believed their ghost to be "Miss Howard" (I don't recall the women themselves being asked about this in the show).

To suppose that all 3 - 4? - of them had heard talk of Miss Howard or seen a photo in some third location that had her name attached, spontaneously decided to attach that name/photo (which did not appear in any sense "creepy" or stand out from any other photo) to the thing they were experiencing in their own home and each had identical cryptoamnesia about it is asking a lot I would think.

The only way i can see a plausible mundane explanation for the adoption of the name for the apparition is if some adult had been aware of Miss Howard dying in the house and had suggested to the kids parents that thats who their ghost might be and it became a nickname for the experiences. But if thats the case it would suggest there was an adult acceptance of Miss Howard haunting or likely haunting the place...and what was that based on? Other people's earlier experiences? Adult witnesses? Or just pure supposition based on knowledge of who had once lived there? But even in the latter case that would still leave the essential mystery of the apparitional experiences themselves.

So how did we come to associate the lady in the photo who, it turned out, lived at that address with the apparition? Well as it was shown - and of course we're relying on the production team not already knowing who lived there and deliberately guiding the story and the witnesses, which i hope isn't true - the local historian seems to have gathered photos from families who lived in the village and from her reaction was only aware of one Howard family in the village who were bakers at a particular location (seemingly not the address in question). One photo is shown of the family and Kate says one of the women had similar facial features (" the rounded cheeks") to the one in her memory. The second photo which she more confidently asserted was familiar and looked like her apparition was - as presented on tv - not sought out as a Howard, but rather Danny read the name caption after the identification, giving the impression the images were being leafed through when she fell upon that one. This may be televisual dramatic licence but that's how it was presented on the show.

If we take this to be a true representation of the discovery of the photo then too much is being asked of coincidence if we credit it with the woman chosen/identified later being discovered to a) be the only Howard girl to remain a spinster and therefore a Miss and b) to have lived at the exact address, though the street number appeared until further research to belie the possibility.

As for her not looking tall ...the witnesses were young children lying in bed. Their claim is surely only that she struck them as tall from their physical and age perspective, and tall for a woman...not that she looked tall in comparision to a taller man in a photo. Plus its a counter productive argument surely. If we're to imagine Kate had somehow seen that photo (name attached) in her infancy long before the historian lady had gathered it for her book, then she would surely have perceived the apparition as short.

 

[MorningAngel]

To me that claim is a bit of a stretch. "Who's can say x didn't happen" can cover all things. If i understood the claims presented in the show correctly (big if), Kate knew/understood without knowing how that the apparition she was experiencing was called Miss Howard. And the mother of the two girls who lived their previously said in her blog post that they collectively believed their ghost to be "Miss Howard" (I don't recall the women themselves being asked about this in the show).

To suppose that all 3 - 4? - of them had heard talk of Miss Howard or seen a photo in some third location that had her name attached, spontaneously decided to attach that name/photo (which did not appear in any sense "creepy" or stand out from any other photo) to the thing they were experiencing in their own home and each had identical cryptoamnesia about it is asking a lot I would think.

The only way i can see a plausible mundane explanation for the adoption of the name for the apparition is if some adult had been aware of Miss Howard dying in the house and had suggested to the kids parents that thats who their ghost might be and it became a nickname for the experiences. But if thats the case it would suggest there was an adult acceptance of Miss Howard haunting or likely haunting the place...and what was that based on? Other people's earlier experiences? Adult witnesses? Or just pure supposition based on knowledge of who had once lived there? But even in the latter case that would still leave the essential mystery of the apparitional experiences themselves.

So how did we come to associate the lady in the photo who, it turned out, lived at that address with the apparition? Well as it was shown - and of course we're relying on the production team not already knowing who lived there and deliberately guiding the story and the witnesses, which i hope isn't true - the local historian seems to have gathered photos from families who lived in the village and from her reaction was only aware of one Howard family in the village who were bakers at a particular location (seemingly not the address in question). One photo is shown of the family and Kate says one of the women had similar facial features (" the rounded cheeks") to the one in her memory. The second photo which she more confidently asserted was familiar and looked like her apparition was - as presented on tv - not sought out as a Howard, but rather Danny read the name caption after the identification, giving the impression the images were being leafed through when she fell upon that one. This may be televisual dramatic licence but that's how it was presented on the show.

If we take this to be a true representation of the discovery of the photo then too much is being asked of coincidence if we credit it with the woman chosen/identified later being discovered to a) be the only Howard girl to remain a spinster and therefore a Miss and b) to have lived at the exact address, though the street number appeared until further research to belie the possibility.

As for her not looking tall ...the witnesses were young children lying in bed. Their claim is surely only that she struck them as tall from their physical and age perspective, and tall for a woman...not that she looked tall in comparision to a taller man in a photo. Plus its a counter productive argument surely. If we're to imagine Kate had somehow seen that photo (name attached) in her infancy long before the historian lady had gathered it for her book, then she would surely have perceived the apparition as short.

Sometimes I find the sceptic’s explanation can be more unlikely than something paranormal.

 

[gattino]

Well a little bit of investigation answers some questions...and raises some about the editing of the show!

I've found the post the two girls mother wrote...its actually just a brief paragraph. The most important thing to the above discussion is the mother (and therefore Danny and the production team) already knew as a fact that Miss Howard had lived at that address. The belated discovery of these details on the show is indeed a bit of theatrics.

So it would appear they assumed the identity of the ghost based on knowledge of who had lived there.

How Kate, the later occupant, knew the name may remain a mystery or may be surmised to be a case of the story of visits from Miss Howard was passed on between seller and buyer (Kate's parents) when the place changed ownership. (Edit: an even more disappointing option....we only have Kate's word that she "always knew" the ghost was called Miss Howard. It may be more a case of having discovered the matching post from the previous owner which identified the apparition by that name she convinced herself that the name in it was familiar/seemed right)

In terms of who else experienced phenomena, the family dog apparently aware of a presence and the parents frequently heard phantom footsteps.

Here is her account in its entirety, posted in 2008.

"I lived at 65 High Street from 1964 to 1971. The two little figures on the left of the photo are my two daughters, Lisa and Jane. We shared our house with a ghost who, we believe, was Miss Howard, who had previously lived there. Her father owned the baker's shop next door and had built the two houses next to it. Miss Howard 'appeared' to both my daughters at different times, when they were 18 months old and 3 years old, and I think that, at that young age, they were not capable of inventing such a story. Our dog was also aware of her presence, and over the years we were there, we frequently heard her walking about, along the landing and up and down the stairs. I've often wondered if any subsequent families living in the house has had similar experiences. My name in those days was Joyce Thorn, if anyone remembers me or my family, I would love to hear from them."

https://www.francisfrith.com/uk/melbourn/a-ghost-in-melbourn-high-streeet_memory-46271

 

[MorningAngel]

Well a little bit of investigation answers some questions...and raises some about the editing of the show!

I've found the post the two girls mother wrote...its actually just a brief paragraph. The most important thing to the above discussion is the mother (and therefore Danny and the production team) already knew as a fact that Miss Howard had lived at that address. The belated discovery of these details on the show is indeed a bit of theatrics.

So it would appear they assumed the identity of the ghost based on knowledge of who had lived there.

How Kate, the later occupant, knew the name may remain a mystery or may be surmised to be a case of the story of visits from Miss Howard was passed on between seller and buyer (Kate's parents) when the place changed ownership. (Edit: an even more disappointing option....we only have Kate's word that she "always knew" the ghost was called Miss Howard. It may be more a case of having discovered the matching post from the previous owner which identified the apparition by that name she convinced herself that the name in it was familiar/seemed right)

In terms of who else experienced phenomena, the family dog apparently aware of a presence and the parents frequently heard phantom footsteps.

Here is her account in its entirety, posted in 2008.

"I lived at 65 High Street from 1964 to 1971. The two little figures on the left of the photo are my two daughters, Lisa and Jane. We shared our house with a ghost who, we believe, was Miss Howard, who had previously lived there. Her father owned the baker's shop next door and had built the two houses next to it. Miss Howard 'appeared' to both my daughters at different times, when they were 18 months old and 3 years old, and I think that, at that young age, they were not capable of inventing such a story. Our dog was also aware of her presence, and over the years we were there, we frequently heard her walking about, along the landing and up and down the stairs. I've often wondered if any subsequent families living in the house has had similar experiences. My name in those days was Joyce Thorn, if anyone remembers me or my family, I would love to hear from them."

https://www.francisfrith.com/uk/melbourn/a-ghost-in-melbourn-high-streeet_memory-46271

So that actually connects the Howard bakers with the houses.

 

[MorningAngel]

I presume that’s the shop on the left of the houses.

 

[Eponastill]

I've just started watching the tv programme. Mr Robins does not look anything like I imagined in my head listening to the podcast. I have a very uncanny sensation watching the man on the tv as though he is just mouthing the words that Danny Robins is saying. It's very weird. I assume it's going to wear off in a bit

 

[Sabresonic]

So is Uncanny a mix of truth and something like the most Haunted crap ?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

So is Uncanny a mix of truth and something like the most Haunted crap ?

I'd say it is a mixture of truth and speculation, with a bit of showmanship thrown in for dramatic effect.
Nothing as egregiously false as Most Haunted though!

 

[MorningAngel]

I've just started watching the tv programme. Mr Robins does not look anything like I imagined in my head listening to the podcast. I have a very uncanny sensation watching the man on the tv as though he is just mouthing the words that Danny Robins is saying. It's very weird. I assume it's going to wear off in a bit

I had trouble with that too. I know we’ve seen his picture on the podcast thumbnail but it was still odd actually seeing him.

 

[Marwood]

I had trouble with that too. I know we’ve seen his picture on the podcast thumbnail but it was still odd actually seeing him.

It wasn't Danny I had a problem with...it was the fact he always appeared in something red, red raincoat, red jumper and a red beanie!

I enjoyed the telly version, a fair representation of the radio show...and we get to see the lovely Evelyn Hollow

 

[MorningAngel]

It wasn't Danny I had a problem with...it was the fact he always appeared in something red, red raincoat, red jumper and a red beanie!

I enjoyed the telly version, a fair representation of the radio show...and we get to see the lovely Evelyn Hollow

Evelyn was a lot more glam than I’d imagined. Wasn’t there something about red in The Sixth Sense?