Alien Big Cats ('ABCs')

[rynner2]

...he said the place was full of strange noises and creaking doors but he felt that it was to do with tunnels under the place rather than the supernatural,

I've often seen it written that a lot of ghost stories were actually started by robbers or smugglers, trying to scare people away from their hide-outs and ill-gotten gains. Possibly a few Black Dogs originated the same way, and even Big Cats.

 

[GNC]

Reading the latest ABC round-up in the FT, I note some proof is claimed for the amount of attacked animals (deer, sheep) found without heads. But would a real big cat just eat the head of its prey in the wild? Can't be very nutritious.

 

[oldrover]

Reading the latest ABC round-up in the FT, I note some proof is claimed for the amount of attacked animals (deer, sheep) found without heads. But would a real big cat just eat the head of its prey in the wild? Can't be very nutritious.

No. And as you say, it wouldn't be.

 

[GNC]

Didn't think so. But that throws up another mystery - what's happening to the heads? Do ABCs have a trophy room?

 

[oldrover]

Are there many cases though, of heads actually missing? If there are, maybe something, as in someone, has.

 

[Mungoman]

"Unfortunately we don’t have a photograph. It was about half a mile away."

Half a mile hahahahah. Hilarious.

Would have made a brilliant photo too. All five pixels of it at that distance.

My sister and I carried out a little experiment a while back (I'm sure I reported on it here, but I can't find it) where we walked out various distances to see what we could distinguish (facial features, colours of clothing etc) and you'd be surprised how rapidly you can't really see a thing.

If an animal is half a mile away in a field, what on earth have you got to judge its size accurately by. It's just not possible. You'd be lucky to distinguish its colour properly. If you don't mind me saying, half a mile is bloody miles away.

I've been trying to find a picture of 'half a mile' and I could only find this. It makes me want to go out and give it another try.
http://www.groundcontrol.com/images/Trailer_half_mile_wireless_hotspot.jpg

It might well have been a cat (obviously a zoology graduate has special dibs on cat-distinguishing 'but I used to work in a zoo'..) but why should it have been a big cat?

(I do wish they existed in the Merrily Harpur daimonic weirdness way. But one has to be a bit sceptical eh).

Depends, I reckon...

 

[Mungoman]

Reading the latest ABC round-up in the FT, I note some proof is claimed for the amount of attacked animals (deer, sheep) found without heads. But would a real big cat just eat the head of its prey in the wild? Can't be very nutritious.

In my experience the majority of feral kills are eaten, starting with the head.

 

[oldrover]

In my experience the majority of feral kills are eaten, starting with the head.

Can you expand on that. Feral what's? And what sort of animals are being killed. Also, how do you know that the heads are eaten first, and what other sorts of wounds/tissue loss are there?

 

[GNC]

I didn't think there were any big cats in Australia? Maybe big dogs, though.

 

[Mungoman]

Can you expand on that. Feral what's? And what sort of animals are being killed. Also, how do you know that the heads are eaten first, and what other sorts of wounds/tissue loss are there?

G'day oldrover. Until recently, I've been associated with primary production - sheep, goats, horse and cattle since I was 17 - and in that time I've come across predation by carnivorous beasties.

In my time I've seen carcasses that have been eaten from the back legs up to the diaphragm, through a small opening in the hide, leaving the hide primarily intact [young kids-goatlings], I've seen maulings by dogs where they have hamstrung the animals and savaged the rest of the bodies [sheep, calves, foals and adult goats], but the most specific injury by non-pack animals that I've seen has been the partial or complete removal of the head, without much removal of flesh from any other part of the body [lambs, goats and foals]- whether this has been because someone has come along and surprised the predator, or that was the choicest part of the body to the predator, I don't know.


Some of this predation was obviously done by pack animals, and some, I assume, by individual animals. The pack animals [Dingo, wild dogs] would often kill more than they could eat, and so would eat the flesh off the back legs and leave the rest of the carcass, with mauled uneaten carcasses left in the near vicinity. Other single acts of predation, which I assumed were done by feral pigs, and some that I reckon were done by big cats [Alien?] were much neater. These usually consisted of the abdomen opened, some organs removed, and partial if not complete removal of the head - this was usually done on younger animals.


I used to live and work throughout South Aus. and the Territory, and heard some pretty graphic tales told around the campfire, and the worst I heard was about little Azaria Chamberlain who was taken by a Dingo. The story went that this Old Fellow was walking through his country and came across Azarias body, minus the head [chewed off by the dingo] and rather than have either of the parents having to identify the body, in that condition, this Old Fellow gave her a decent and proper burial, and left items of clothing where he found the body, for the authorities.

Finding GNC's post about the ABC's noting of animal bodies found without their heads, made me answer in the affirmative.

 

[Swifty]

I've never seen an ABC but I might have been very close to them a couple of times ..

The first time was on a school field trip to Eyam in the mid 80's. A few of us kids were trusted to walk back from the historical plague village, up the wooded area hill and to a YMCA hostel that we were all staying in. Myself and a mate walked ahead, by the time the other three got to the top of the embankment they were out of breath and scared telling us that they'd seen a big 'black panther'. We just put it down to over imaginative friends and it was never brought up again. I've often wondered if anyone else reported anything similar back then in that area ..

The second time was similar, I was with a different group of friends and we were all in our early twenties so it would have been about '93 time ... we decided to go to Foremark Reservoir to build a fire at a point called 'Carver's Rock'. The rock was like a mini cliff face and someone had stuck rows of metal hoops into it for some unspecified reason. I fancied it was some sort of Kung Fu training spot or something because it wasn't large enough to interest any rock climbers. We built a fire, dropped some acid, had a good night and thought no more of it. A couple of days later, a local newspaper reported and pictured a local woman and her dog who'd been walking above the rock the morning after we left. She claimed a big cat had jumped out and clawed her dog, the wounds were shown in a photo in that paper ..

I used to live in Oakham near Leicester in '97 and ran a chip shop called Catmose Fish Bar .. Catmose translates as 'Valley Of The Cat' I was told. Again, I didn't see anything feline dodgy. One of my co workers was a big black guy called Mike who always wore a black leather jacket and thought it would be a good idea to paint a black panther on the front outside wall of the shop. Due to it being an extremely conservative and 'biscuit tin perfect' village, we decided against doing that.

 

[oldrover]

In my time I've seen carcasses that have been eaten from the back legs up to the diaphragm, through a small opening in the hide, leaving the hide primarily intact [young kids-goatlings]

This is probably stupid, but could this have been goannas?

 

[oldrover]

Thanks Mungoman, for the detailed reply. I'm no expert, but a removal of the head doesn't sound like a cat to me, but more like a dog. Although, I believe pumas tend to focus on the neck and forequarters of their prey.

As for dogs, I have seen similar to what you describe. Open abdo, head hanging off. There's a lot of variation in dog size and morphology, and I wonder whether this could account for different, perhaps even cleaner, killing methods. But as I say, I don't know enough.

I'm sort of aware of the Australian ABC theories. But, I'm very out of date with them. I've long since given up on the British stories.

I do wonder though. are there sill reports of Blue Mountain lion, Queensland tiger or yarri type animals these days. Or are they just a thing of the past now?

 

[Mungoman]

This is probably stupid, but could this have been goannas?

Good question OR. This happened more than once up on the central coast when it was still a sleepy little hamlet, where the Old Diggers had their holiday houses and industry up there was primary [egg farms, dairy and citrus] and it was seen as 'the sticks'.

What we did have up there, that we knew of, were feral pigs that used to consume the dead chickens from the egg farms. The area was the west side of Tuggerah Lakes, which was relatively flat, but in areas had hills rising up to maybe 150 metres above sea level, with corresponding gullies.

I had seen a couple of big pigs in broad daylight and knew that they were there, but the neatness of the removal of everything from the diaphragm down - bones, flesh, organs, though a four inch hole, leaving hide intact and no blood to be seen, had me scratching my head. Initially I thought that it was a fox, but I'd never heard a vixen scream at night, or seen young juveniles dead on the sides of the roads round about February/March, so I tentatively discounted that.

I have had a couple of cats, one, an old ball bearing mouse trap Manx called judge, who regularly went down warrens and would present us with decapitated rabbit carcasses in the morning, chewing the head off and leaving the bodies on the welcome mat.

But Goannas in that area were the smaller size, and preferred the angophera forests on the eastern side of the lake, and there was a filter of sorts from the angophera area to Wyongah called Toukley...unless the little buggers swam across the lake from the east side peninsula, to the west side mainland, which I wouldn't put it past them, but the removal and consumption of the bones made me think along the lines of a larger carnivore.

So, on reflection OR, the act of judge the Manx cat, and the frequency of seeing bodies with neatly chewed off heads, I suppose, makes me deduce that wild dogs and pigs are messy eaters and are more prone to maul the carcass in attempting to subdue their prey, and go for the body mass, whereas that Something Else which I'm convinced is out there has the time and a lack of fear that allows it to eat that particular part of the body, namely, the head.

As for big cats in the Australian bush - I'd put my money on 'em being here, no worries, but, whether we have marsupial cats or these are exotic escapees...it 'ould be an each way bet.

 

[CarlosTheDJ]

My two cats quite often just eat the head of a mouse and leave the body for us.

 

[GNC]

Well, that's not going to fill you up. Who or what would a puma be leaving the body for? Isn't a deer skull more difficult to crunch on than a mouse's?

 

[GNC]

Would a panther eat a head of a deer instead of the easier to consume softer parts, though? Maybe a way of sharpening its teeth?

 

[oldrover]

Well, that's not going to fill you up. Who or what would a puma be leaving the body for? Isn't a deer skull more difficult to crunch on than a mouse's?

A tad yes. The difference in body size is huge comparing a domestic cat to a mouse, and the thickness of bone against tooth strength is proportionate. Not so in a deer and a big cat.

That's not to say that some big cats don't bite through the skulls of large prey though.

 

[ramonmercado]

My two cats quite often just eat the head of a mouse and leave the body for us.

Decent of them.

 

[Mungoman]

Well, that's not going to fill you up. Who or what would a puma be leaving the body for? Isn't a deer skull more difficult to crunch on than a mouse's?

The anterior portion of a skull is where the sinuses are - around the nose and above or on the supra-orbital ridge, this would weaken the integrity of the skull I reckon. The brain is basically fatty, bugger all protein, which in my naive opinion would give an energy boost faster than just eating flesh. I can only presume that the predator would come back for the rest of the carcass at a later date

The bite of a large feline is round about 1,000 psi, the bite of a puss is about 58 psi, with humans having a bite of about 120 psi, so I suppose it would be relative GNC.

 

[GNC]

But how would a big cat know the hard to get at brain was an energy boost when the easier to eat rest of it would seem to be the best bet for nutrition?

 

[Mungoman]

Dunno...good question - I suppose the same way that early man cracked bones for the marrow?

Isn't fat easier to digest than animal protein [muscle]?

 

[GNC]

Can't remember from personal experience, I haven't eaten an animal in decades.

 

[Eponastill]

Mungoman, I take your point with the photo (sorry to harp back, I've only just turned up again). But the green and pleasant land of England rarely looks like that as you know. The flat open bits don't tend to have high up bits to view them from either

Even so in your picture, without the car as comparison you'd have no hope in hell of telling how big something was out there. I rest my case.

(I like the thylacine connection by the way, they're one of my favourites. I hadn't made the connection between topics. There's the same 'I Want To Believe' element.)

A while ago I went on a walk and found bits of a deer skeleton, some lovely sculptural vertebrae came home with me. The head was missing. I assumed it was because somebody rather fancied the skull for their wall. BUT perhaps it was big cats wot got it. I'd never considered that before.

 

[Mungoman]

Mungoman, I take your point with the photo (sorry to harp back, I've only just turned up again). But the green and pleasant land of England rarely looks like that as you know. The flat open bits don't tend to have high up bits to view them from either

Even so in your picture, without the car as comparison you'd have no hope in hell of telling how big something was out there. I rest my case.

(I like the thylacine connection by the way, they're one of my favourites. I hadn't made the connection between topics. There's the same 'I Want To Believe' element.)

A while ago I went on a walk and found bits of a deer skeleton, some lovely sculptural vertebrae came home with me. The head was missing. I assumed it was because somebody rather fancied the skull for their wall. BUT perhaps it was big cats wot got it. I'd never considered that before.

G'day Eponastill. I was fortunate to be born with 'sharp eyes', and tend not to notice things that are there, or should be there, Instead I see what isn't there or shouldn't be there, and I agree that those soft and gentle vistas of Britain shield a great deal but I will put up a photo from 2013 near Howarth, UK, that I took that delights me with the amount of detail within it.

What I unwittingly see are moving shadows, unnatural shapes, colours out of place and things that just don't seem right - it's a bit like that tiny bit of grit in your shoe that your foot feels, rather than the rubbing, the constriction, and that toenail that needs trimming where it scrapes against the next toe, which your foot subconciously feels everyday.

Once you are aware of that 'discomfort' in your vision, the mind takes over and automatically starts comparing it with known situations. The other thing is that once I'm aware of something odd, I slide my eyes away from it, keeping it out of my direct vision

Now, your assertion that at that distance, and without something to compare it with there is no chance to judge how big it is - valid point - but there is plenty to compare it with. I use my thumb, or a closed fist when telling the time at night-time against anything up in the sky [a closed fist at arms length is about an hour], or compare the item against something I'm familiar with - like the tree that I passed not long ago which is at the approximate same distance - I dunno, maybe this is all about familiarity with the great outdoors that I've grown up with, and continue to have, or knowing what I'm looking at [second photo, can you see the roo?]...or just knowing that things can make me pretty crook down here if I'm not paying enough attention.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Took me a while, but I found the 'roo.

 

[Eponastill]

Oh those are super photos, thank you. More detail than my eyesight I reckon And I do take the point that if I am too inexpert to judge the size of things, that doesn't mean that others can't. I think I've spotted your dastardly roo but there are plants with similarly eared shapes. Which I suppose highlights the fact that in real life, one would be drawn to things moving. That would sort the trees from the roos. That's probably how most people spot their ABCs? The long-tailed creatures slinking about.

Now, you may think this a bit sad, but I got the chance to shoehorn an essay about abcs into a course I've been doing. (It was more to prove you could set up a scientific experiment so the topic didn't matter so much). So I looked at all the descriptions in merrily harpur's book about the creatures in dorset. The descriptions vary hugely because there's been no-one standing there demanding standardised distances and so on. I should do something more interesting with my spreadsheet. But anyway. They often seem to be observed 'fleetingly' and that's also an issue if you're trying to work out what you're actually seeing / saw?

In Australia amongst all your dangerous wildlife I guess a fleeting glimpse is all you want of a snake or something before you decide what it is. Or it might be too late. So could there be an element of that in it too? That the human mind is primed to over rather than under-react to possible danger? otherwise it would be curtains. Better to see a moggy as a panther than the other way round.

I know there's nothing too horrible in Britain but that doesn't stop me jumping a mile high if I get surprised by a big spider.

 

[Mungoman]

I reckon you've got it when you mention the ears Eponastill, He [big Western Grey] just doesn't belong there, according to me - he looks like a shadow which shouldn't be there, he doesn't blend with his surroundings and his form is kangaroo-like - also, at that time of day he would be lying down, under a bush - the fact that I was around made him break cover, even though he was at least 500 metres away

No, not sad at all, the topic is interesting [setting up any scientific experiment], and choosing a subject as left field as ABC's would hold the majorities attention, surely.

I agree with you about the variations describing the subject Eponastill - they vary in colour, form and size, which would make me think that there is more than one type of cat out there. The idea of setting a standard which people could compare with, against what they'd seen, would produce groupings which, to some one familiar with largish and extremely largish beasties of that ilk, could home in with their honed skills [see what I did there?]to verify or dismiss certain sightings.

The majority of sightings in Australia of ABC's are seen by country people, who have a fair idea about what they are seeing, or hearing - it's interesting to me that both black and sable cats are seen here, indicating releases or escapes of exotic beasties, with maybe the odd sable feline being possibly marsupial - being either Thylacoleo or Thylacine. Maybe.

As with snakes, they are normally seen in the bush either by their movement, their colour, or, just about standing on them before they move. They usually flee as a whole, just wanting to get away, the same as you and I - there are variations though, the odd cranky species which will chase you. These fellows are usually country specific, Inland, which are mainly the browns, South Australia, being the Taipan and the Tiger, whereas over in the west, just about anything will have a go, especially the duggite [nasty little bastards].

The majority of snakes I've come close to are due to me being quiet,[make lots of noise in known snake territory] and they are happy when I stand still, and let them slither away. There has only been one that caused me grief, and that was a brown that didn't want to share an irrigation channel that I was cooling off in.

In that situation he saw me in the water, while I was maybe fifty metres away, and he did the classic snake pose of standing his first half metre of head and body out of the water, while heading straight for me at a pretty fair clip. I was young and thick and didn't react enough when my mate told me to get out of the water, and make it sharpish like - and so got chased for fifty metres or so once the bugger got out of the canal and hit ground.

Your idea of reacting to everything, in this situation, isn't bad advice at all Eponastill...

A pissed off Tiger on a mates back lawn.

 

[oldrover]

Now, you may think this a bit sad, but I got the chance to shoehorn an essay about abcs into a course I've been doing. (It was more to prove you could set up a scientific experiment so the topic didn't matter so much). So I looked at all the descriptions in merrily harpur's book about the creatures in dorset. The descriptions vary hugely because there's been no-one standing there demanding standardised distances and so on. I should do something more interesting with my spreadsheet. But anyway. They often seem to be observed 'fleetingly' and that's also an issue if you're trying to work out what you're actually seeing / saw?

I don't think it's sad either. I'd be interested to hear more about it.

And, British spiders don't need to be physically dangerous, they're masters in psychological warfare.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

ABC in Kiwi Land

http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/84010615/Mid-Canterburys-black-panther-sighted-again

It's actually a great country if you are a big cat. Sheep, (no jokes please), wild goats, big birds, (no jokes please), such as Pukeko, etc and lots of wildness.