Are the Fundies for real?

[GNC]

Have we got a definition of fundamental, yet?

They certainly sound as if they're talking from the fundament.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Would he at all be related to Arthur Machen - noted Christian mystic, lapsed occultist, and author of some exceedingly fine horror stories?

I don't know, although I've often wondered the same thing myself, including when I keyboarded the operative message above.

I fully agree with you as to the excellence of Arthur Machen's fiction. You might also enjoy Charles Williams' novel "Descent into Hell." He was another British ex-occultist Christian and a close personal friend of C. S. Lewis.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

It is certainly a different thing to the apparent glee which the fundamentalists are showing at an impending global catastrophe.

I don't know. If a child-murdering serial killer turns out upon apprehension to be an atheist, surely nobody's going to go "Wait a minute, Bill, YOU'RE an atheist, so you must be a child-murdering serial lkiller too!"

Yet if some monster or moron who claims to be a Christian murders people, or molest children, or hates Jews or believes the earth is flat or that all human history is predicted by the Great Pyramid, this is considered by far too many as fair ammunition to be used against ALL Christians.

Nobody except the Christian is expected to answer for each and every terminally goofy or downright evil idea espoused by TWO BILLION (supposed) co-religionists.

 

[barfing_pumpkin]

barfing_pumpkin wrote:
Would he at all be related to Arthur Machen - noted Christian mystic, lapsed occultist, and author of some exceedingly fine horror stories?


I don't know, although I've often wondered the same thing myself, including when I keyboarded the operative message above.

I fully agree with you as to the excellence of Arthur Machen's fiction. You might also enjoy Charles Williams' novel "Descent into Hell." He was another British ex-occultist Christian and a close personal friend of C. S. Lewis.

Well, I did a little search, and discovered that Arthur Machen was not paternally related to J. Gresham Machen:

[Arthur Machen] was born in Caerleon on Usk, in the county of Gwent, South Wales, in 1863, and christened Arthur Llewellyn Jones. His father, John Edward Jones (Machen was his mother's maiden name), was an Anglican priest, Vicar of the tiny church of Llandewi, near Caerleon, and the boy was raised at the rectory there.

http://www.machensoc.demon.co.uk/machbiog.html

Unfortunately, I can't find anything on A. Machen's maternal ancestry; his paternal lineage, however, is well recorded, as many of his ancestors in that line were notable clergymen - see http://www.caerleon.net/history/machen/text/page5.html for more.

Interesting to note that J. Gresham Machen had a penchant for cigars, though. Especially as Arthur Machen's

...interest in spirituality was broader than that of a formal, regular church-goer as he sought to examine the often alarmingly close 'world beyond the veil' which manifests itself to those who are prepared and open to deep experiences of a psychic nature. An enjoyment of wine and tobacco was felt to be one way of entering this state of consciousness.

From: http://www.caerleon.net/history/machen/text/

It should also be noted that Arthur Machen's surname was unlikely to have lasted amongst his descendants, as both of his two children were daughters.

Also, the Wikipedia entry on J. Gresham Machen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gresham_Machen makes no mention of any connection to Arthur Machen

 

[Dingo667]

It is certainly a different thing to the apparent glee which the fundamentalists are showing at an impending global catastrophe.

I don't know. If a child-murdering serial killer turns out upon apprehension to be an atheist, surely nobody's going to go "Wait a minute, Bill, YOU'RE an atheist, so you must be a child-murdering serial lkiller too!"

Yet if some monster or moron who claims to be a Christian murders people, or molest children, or hates Jews or believes the earth is flat or that all human history is predicted by the Great Pyramid, this is considered by far too many as fair ammunition to be used against ALL Christians.

Nobody except the Christian is expected to answer for each and every terminally goofy or downright evil idea espoused by TWO BILLION (supposed) co-religionists.

Erm not really true, not just x-tians. If a moronic Devil Worshipper kills smeone, the papers are usually full with the notion that Satanism is on the rise and how unsave we all are and how all this is due to the 24 hour drinking law or some rubbish, when in reality this person was a non-educated idiot who hasn't got the first idea about Satanism who just did what everybody "thinks/expects" he has to do.

So its not just x-tians that get this treatment.

 

[lupinwick]

Nobody except the Christian is expected to answer for each and every terminally goofy or downright evil idea espoused by TWO BILLION (supposed) co-religionists.

Nope, I'm sure the same applies to Muslim, Hindus, Pagans etc. The whole lot get slated because of a bunch of evil nutters. My problem is with the fundamentalists (of all creeds) who take what is effectively a good creed and turn it into something full of hate and bile.

As for this praying (hoping) for armageddon or being part of the chosen few who will be taken up by the rapture, then certainly "Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. " should have some bearing.

(Oh, forgot - you can interpret or take literaly any part of the bible depending on whim and what point you are proving).

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Thanks for the additional information, BP.

The main reason I mentioned Machen in the first place is that those critics who glibly dismiss all Fundamentalists as a gaggle of ignorant Bible-thumpers have to confront John Gresham Machen....with or without his cigars.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Dingo and Lumpinwick, point taken. The members of the Church of Satan whom I personally knew were actually very moral people. Police detectives learned fairly early on that in investigating "satanic" crimes they could safely ignore the local Church of Satan member.

But nobody's claiming that there are TWO BILLION organized Satanists!

Indeed, there are almost twice as many Christians as Muslims (2 billion vs. 1.3 billion).

P. S. A COS member once correctly faulted my own morality (or rather the lack of it) on a specific issue. Balaam's ass, and all that.

 

[synchronicity]

Unfortunately, fundies are all too real. I know, I live in the American "Bible Belt" and am surrounded by them. In fact, I was reared as one (in the Southern Baptist church, to be specific.)

I do not say that all fundamentalists--or even most--are "bad" people. Most of them are well-meaning, kindly people who are sincere in their beliefs and live hard-working, honest, "ordinary" lives.

However, their theology is pretty rigid just by definition. You're either saved or you're not, in which case you are destined to burn in hell. Now, most of my fundamentalist friends take no joy in the idea of anyone going to hell---this explains their zeal to "convert" people. They truly believe that they are helping to "save" this person's soul from eternal damnation. Still, they do inhabit a very black-and-white world that has no room for nuance, and there is also (at least from what I've observed) a dangerous tendency towards superstition masquerading as theology. (An example: most fundamentalists have a "holy horror" of Ouija Boards--they honestly think that people are playing with fire in using a Ouija Board, since the user knowingly or not is opening the portal to "the other side"---they view it as a dangerous tool which might unloose "demons". I assure you, I am not making this up!)

And I have massive problems with most televangelists. I find that most of them are preaching a message which IMHO Jesus would never recognize--in fact I expect He would be appalled at many of their ideas. ("Send me "seed money" of, say $500, or more, and watch yourselves become rich beyond your wildest dreams!!") So many of the misguided people who respond to appeals like this have very little money to begin with--I shudder to see their faith exploited like this.

And I am even more appalled at the so-called "End-Timers" who apparently cannot wait for the Battle of Armageddon. Many (not all) of them do seem to feel an unholy glee at the notion that they will be "raptured away" to Heaven while those who once scoffed at their beliefs are left to an earthly hell, followed by the real thing. (And they fail utterly to realize that the whole idea of a "Rapture" comes from a British evangelist of the past century, John Nelson Darby, who was inspired by a "visionary" Scottish girl---the "rapture" theology is a very recent development in Christianity--or one odd wing of it--and is not any kind of traditional Christian belief.)

These folks scare the hell out of me.

And regrettably, they make all Christians look bad.

 

[rynner2]

Welcome to the MB, Syn.

I'm sure you'll have lots of useful input into our bizarre discussions!

I would say, I'm into synchronicity myself, but I might be misinterpreted!

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Unfortunately, fundies are all too real. I know, I live in the American "Bible Belt" and am surrounded by them. In fact, I was reared as one (in the Southern Baptist church, to be specific.)

Let me at least suggest that you may have associated with a limited number, or more correctly a limited number of TYPES, of Southern Baptists.

I can assure you that it was the pastor of MY Southern Baptist Church, a theological conservative, who decades ago converted me from a quasi-Creationist to an Evolutionist.

And we occasionally held classes on Evolutionary Thought and Its Compatibility with Christianity, taught by our regular guest preacher (also a theological conservative), the professor of Anthropology at the Louisville, Kentucky, Baptist Seminary.

 

[synchronicity]

Thanks, Rynner. "Bizarre" is my middle name.

And Radio, you must have very different Southern Baptists than the ones I grew up around! I recall one of my Sunday School teachers--a very nice older lady--earnestly warning my class one Sunday morning to be careful when we eventually went to college, because colleges are full of unbelievers who would try to convince us we descended from monkeys.

I would love to meet a Southern Baptist who accepts the idea of evolution! Around here if you mention that you like any of Darwin's ideas, they start praying for your soul.

But I do agree with your general idea--that a person can have faith and still be an evolutionist!

 

[austen27]

Thanks for joining the discussion Synchronicity.

I think there is ironic that the Fundementalists, who stem from the Protestant tradition that was keen to rid the church of superstition, have ended up much more superstitious than the orthodox churches.

 

[ramonmercado]

The Orthodox Churchs' can be rather superstitious as well. Especially the RCC with its Transubstantiation, Veneration of Mary, Cult of Saints, attachment to Statues, Pictures and Relics.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

And Radio, you must have very different Southern Baptists than the ones I grew up around!

But then you are making my point for me - be very careful of forcing all Southern Baptists (or anybody else, for that matter) into one common mold.

By the way, let me document my previous communication a little bit by giving the name of the church - First Baptist Church, North Fort Thomas Avenue, Fort Thomas, Kentucky 41075.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

The Orthodox Churchs' can be rather superstitious as well. Especially the RCC with its Transubstantiation, Veneration of Mary, Cult of Saints, attachment to Statues, Pictures and Relics.

In my Roman Catholic grade school the nuns assured us that the local public school teachers were all flaming atheists. (The public grade and high schools were both with two blocks' distance.)

In actuality all those public school teachers were members of local Christian congregations - and a number were practicing Roman Catholics! (Which those nuns HAD to be aware of, since those Catholic teachers attended our own school's church!)

 

[sonofajoiner]

This just in. Fundies discover Darwin made nazis kill people....or something.

Some group called Coral Ridge Ministries are behind the programme (and queen of the fundie nutbags, Anne Coulter's involved somewhere along the way). You've gotta love stuff like this:

Author and Christian broadcaster Dr. D. James Kennedy connects the dots between Charles Darwin and Adolf Hitler in Darwin’s Deadly Legacy, a groundbreaking inquiry into Darwin’s chilling social impact,..."To put it simply, no Darwin, no Hitler," says Dr. Kennedy. "Hitler tried to speed up evolution, to help it along, and millions suffered and died in unspeakable ways because of it.

Apparently though the Anti Defamation League is on the case.

 

[sunsplash1]

Interresting that there is no wey to complain via their own website...

 

[lupinwick]

Are these people for real? Looks like a case of very flawed reasoning to me. Perhaps they should read this:

A paper on heresy

And get a grip (scientists to take notes as well )

 

[rynner2]

"To put it simply, no Darwin, no Hitler,"

It's true! If you rub lemon juice over the pages of "On the Origin of Species",
you'll bring out the swastikas printed in secret ink!

 

[Anonymous]

Having been recently to a v.multinational uni, I can state that many of my muslim friends were 'forced' (you know how it is) to go to see various visiting clerics and so forth. Indeed, a number told me how worried they were by the mindset of, not just the clerics, but the some of the local kids. The big joke being this: after slating the west etc, these kids would go outside (in their Nike's etc) and then use their mobile phones to call home....bad 'the west'...bad, bad, bad.

BTW Ryn: if you look at the DNA double helix and play around with it a bit, you can make it into an exact copy of Hitler's staff car....spooky

 

[austen27]

I think the media are partly to blame for the stereotypes of Christians, not because they have a "liberal agenda" (though some probably do) but because the extreme always makes a better story.

As for Ann Coulter - she must do her own causes more harm than good - I read some where on the web she had managed to upset Republican students with haer comments at a university.

And Radio, you must have very different Southern Baptists than the ones I grew up around!

But then you are making my point for me - be very careful of forcing all Southern Baptists (or anybody else, for that matter) into one common mold.

By the way, let me document my previous communication a little bit by giving the name of the church - First Baptist Church, North Fort Thomas Avenue, Fort Thomas, Kentucky 41075.

 

[ramonmercado]

Jerusalem Church leaders reject Christian Zionism

Jerusalem, Aug. 31 (CWNews.com) - Four of Jerusalem's most prominent Christian leaders have issued a public statement condemning Christian Zionism.


In their strongly worded statement, the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant leaders describe Christian Zionism as "a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism, and militarism." That outlook, they charge, is "detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel."

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=46188

 

[GwilymGam]

barfing_pumpkin wrote:
>Would J. Gresham Machen at all be related to Arthur Machen - noted Christian mystic, lapsed >occultist, and author of some exceedingly fine horror stories?

Machen was only his adopted surname. His real surname was Jones. His on his Mothers line the Machen's come from Scotland near Glasgow.

Gresham Machen's family were settled in the US by 1790 so if there is a connection it is a very distant one. Which is all to the good as Machen would not be impressed if he thought he was related to a noted Presbyterian preacher. He once said the Reformation was the greatest disaster in the history of Britain.

His own faith was very High Church Anglican. Though like Gresham he did firmly believe in Christian miracles and the supernatural events in the Bible had literally occured, though he needed rather a lot of convincing that one had occured in modern times. Machen was also firmly convinced of the existence of Evil as a supernatural force which helped him in writing his stories.

Of course Arthur inspired the Angels of Mons, commonly quoted as being true by modern fundementalists. Gresham was on the front line in 1918 so I wonder what he thought of them. Gresham seems to have thought war against Germany was a war againist evil and Germany was the source of liberal theology.

 

[barfing_pumpkin]

Of course Arthur inspired the Angels of Mons, commonly quoted as being true by modern fundementalists. Gresham was on the front line in 1918 so I wonder what he thought of them. Gresham seems to have thought war against Germany was a war againist evil and Germany was the source of liberal theology.

According to S. T. Joshi (noted Weird Fiction scholar) Arthur Machen was deeply troubled by the spiritual ramifications of the great war, believing it obscene that Christians should indulge in the slaughter of other Christians. One of his responses was a story called - I think - 'The Coming of the Terror', where mankind, having fallen from his state of grace (as a result of the war) loses its dominion over beasts.

 

[sonofajoiner]

Proof America lacks a sense of irony?

A Caney Creek High School dad is fired up because the Conroe Independent School District uses the book "Fahrenheit 451" as classroom reading material....

...He looked through the book and found the following things wrong with the book: discussion of being drunk, smoking cigarettes, violence, "dirty talk," references to the Bible and using God's name in vain. He said the book's material goes against their religions beliefs. The Verms go to Grand Parkway Church in Porter...

...Alton Verm's request to ban "Fahrenheit 451" came during the 25th annual Banned Books Week. He and Hines said the request to ban "Fahrenheit 451," a book about book burning, during Banned Books Weeks is a coincidence.

 

[lupinwick]

Dunno, could be q death cult.

PAT Robertson, an American Conservative Christian broadcaster says God told him a terrorist attack will result in "mass killing" in the United States in the second half of 2007.

I'm not saying necessarily nuclear, the Lord didn't say nuclear

"I'm not saying necessarily nuclear, the Lord didn't say nuclear," Mr Robertson said on his television show The 700 Club. "It'll be mass killing, possibly millions of people, major cities.

"The evil people will come after this country and there's a possibility, not a possibility, a definite certainty, that chaos is going to rule."

Mr Robertson told viewers they should not be afraid because "if you get blown up or something, you go to heaven; that's the worst thing that will happen to you".

He said God conveyed this message to him during an annual prayer retreat. He said he has received other messages during past retreats.

The broadcaster's 2006 forecast of heavy storm damage in coastal areas was followed by the second-lightest hurricane season since 1995. However, he said his prediction was borne out by storms in New England, Denver, the Pacific Northwest and the Philippines.

God did not warn him of any natural disasters this year, he said.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=609&id=15712007

 

[GNC]

Isn't clairvoyancy the work of the Devil?

 

[Beakmoo]

Isn't clairvoyancy the work of the Devil?

Ah, but, if you're a fundamentalist Christian it's God talking to you, if you're a Catholic it's the work of the Devil. If you're anything else it's time to get to a psychiatrist.

 

[GNC]

I wonder how many times God's predictions have come true?