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Billy Meier

At the risk of being reported and getting a PM warning me about my conduct...I shall speak for the brain dead majority here (as you so delightfully put it)
Sod off Yank or get a grip and admit failure on your behalf to "heducate" the minority (Yes, we aren't the majority of imbicile blind faithers *oo-er...ring a bell? Got a mirror there?*)... into believing what is essentially a big fat juicy dossier written by some one armed nutter hotdog salesman and his cronies (one of them who deviously copy pastes bits of some propagandarist crap into his posts therefore making them repetative, robotic and missing the point)...who make a quid or two out of gullible people willing to believe anything given half the chance to shield themselves from the truth that is humanity because they have suffered trauma etc and need some faith. We'd have to turn into bleeding aliens to not be bastards, as human nature demands we are bastards. It's in our genes don't you know! (Part human, part porcine warriors indeed! I laugh at your scientology type crap!)
(Apologies to anyone who doesn't understand my wry irony. ):)
 
Michael812 said:
There's an old saying about not throwing pearls around in places where they won't be appreciated and, yes, I do indeed see it that way. So, if the thread is closed it will not be a loss.
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Well, I really, really wasn't going to reply to this thread any more, but it is just so much fun that I can't resist it!

The Biblical quote is "Pearls before swine" (Matt. 7, v. 6).

So swine, now, are we? Probably a good analogy - at least we're rooted in reality. :D



There's another old saying; "When in a hole, stop diggiing!"

(But Michael clearly isn't going to let that stop him!)
 
Yes, feel free since it obviously surpasses thinking here. So, a "con", eh?

Please use all the space you need to SPECIFICALLY substantiate your remarks.
 
Michael812 said:
And right on the heels of my message about hypocrites (let me add bottom feeders to that list, and I’m not referring to the fish). Aren’t you even slightly embarrassed to display such envy and stupidity in just one message? Do you use your real name, as do all of the principals in this case; who would vouch for your “impeccable” credibility?

Wendelle Stevens, is a retired USAF fighter pilot turned UFO investigator and researcher in 1949. In his 56 years of this research, he has collected more than 4000 actual UFO photographs. He has written and co-authored over 18 books on extensive UFO contact cases. He was further involved in work with the Brazilian Air Force. The two men you mention and attempt to denigrate to make yourself feel better were both trusted professionals who had no investment in connecting their names to a bogus case. Yet they were the two men who witnessed and signed off on the document containing the 10 specific, accurate predictions. As far as Marcel Vogel goes, he was doing sophisticated scientific experiments at 12 years of age (consistent with leading him to a later position as a preeminent scientist and holder of 32 patents) while you were still dreaming of one day cleaning out aquariums.

Predictably pathetic attempt at smearing others who stand head and shoulders above you. Go clean the tank.
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Well there we have it a rather one sided bigoted attempt at humour.

Vogel may well have been doing experiments at the age of 12, he may hold 32 patents, the fact remains he is NOT a metallurgist, therefore he has no credit at all when it comes to identifying metal substances. You wouldnt go to see a foot doctor cos you have toothache.

Wendelle stevens has collected over 4000 UFO pictures and has written books, and has also had involvement with the Brazilian airforce. How on gods earth does that make him credible? I own over 900 DVD's, does that make me more credible at directing films then Steven Spielberg?

The two other men I mentioned was not to discredit anyone, YOU have insulted all of us and TOLD us all to go and research these so called "credible" witnesses, which I did, and found nothing.

We are now supposed to believe a man that owns a large collection of photo's and worked for the airforce as a pilot. He then worked for the Brazilian air force, doing what? he could have been a goddam chef for all we know.

We are supposed to believe a scientist who's main goal in life was crystals and water, and was not a metallurgist.

We are supposed to believe 2 people who cannot be traced as even exsisting on this planet.

Now you tell me who is the crazy one here?

You have a typical fascist yank attitude who is bigger and better then everyone else around him, I have done what you asked and found nothing, it took me the best part of 30mins to do that, its taken you 26 years and probably $0000's and you still believe the uncredible evidence that surrounds you.

You will probably now retort with some kind of witty insults and revert to spouting the same one dimensional argument that you have done through out the whole thread "look at the photo's" "look at the film" "vogel was building spacecraft when he was 6 with one hand tied behind his back"

Quite frankly you cant come up with any other ounce of reason for us to take on board what you are force feeding us, I have proven your credible sources are nothing but mere fanatics who will do anything to be recognised in something more sinister, as someone who can say "my name is on that"
 
Don't forget the copy paste propaganda bollocks! I shall hazzard a guess that right now, he is pasting this onto some sort of "Look what the infidel non-believers are spouting" site!
Excellent bit of retortion there Painy, eg the "typical fascist yank attitude.." bit!
:lol:
 
Mr Meier doesn't like competition.

Billy: Carlos Diaz, a purported contactee, what do you think of him?

Ptaah: You pose an illogical question, for I already explained that no human beings on Earth maintain any contacts with extraterrestrial intelligences. Therefore he is a liar, fraud and cheat.
Click to expand...
 
Yup, you sure are way smarter than I am. I've been fooled by that crusty ol' "pilot" and those other none-existing guys, and spent a fortune on doing so. Wow, ya got me there.

I've spoken with physicists, astronomers, guys with top secret clearances, special effects experts and others who, initially, expressed skepticism or doubt. One thing they all did have in common was the ability to thnk and reason (I know how hearing that irritates you guys). They were actually responsive to the specifics and grounded enough in reality that they didn't keep pumping this rather immature, denial based flatulence as a substitute for careful thought.

None were so pathetic as to attempt to dismiss Vogel's analysis of the metals, especially after viewing it. Nor so unprofessional and immature as to slander the good names of well respected peopple out of pathetic jealousy. Now don't misunderstand, we have plenty of people over here who fulfill the same uneducated (yes) adversarial role but they are also an embarrasment to the genuine skeptics who actually atempt to disprove the case by failing at duplicating the evidence they claim to be able to.

None of your genuine nonresponsiveness has been missed by me. I understand nt only what I've stepped in here but that it really is solely my fault to tarried much past the time that sufficient information was presented for any sincere student to begin their research.

The problem is that you immaturely think that you've concluded it but, as I said, it's my fault that I remained.

Mental mdiocrity is a comfort zone, hard fought for, not lightly surrendered and certainly not worth a battle to attempt to claim that territory.

I have articles to write, lectures to give and reasonable people to engage in debate. While you won't hear more from me, you'll surely hear a lot more about the case and maybe even my presentation of it.

So, slap each other on your virtual, anonymous backs and join the modern day churchgoers who won't "look through the telescope" any more than the churchmen of Galileo's day would.

It's back to being all yours now.
 
Michael812 said:
My "opinion" about certain photos is irrelevant, as is yours. What has been proven to be either authentic or hoaxed is what matters to me. Numerous photos have been proven authentic, which you might be able to understand if you'd actually read the photo analysis...and understood it. (You know, you really should talk to a police detective or someone similar to understand how investigation, evaluation of evidence, truthfulness of witnesses, etc. is conducted and determined, instead of just relying on your armchair version of reality.)
Click to expand...

If your view or any other persons view is 'irrelevant', then what's the point of defending them as you have? Surely that means that you don't need to defend them as you have?

Some photos have be shown to be fakes - the dinosaur photos, plus a few others. These are, so we're told, not the real photos Meier took but are rather poor fakes planted by persons unknown.

It's useful for the sake of discussion to hear your opinion on this matter - that is, do you believe that Meier did at some point actually take photos of real dinosaurs?

It's a simple question to answer surely?
 
By Jingo - I can't go and watch TV (House its very good you should try it) ;)

Some of these points are possible moot as Michael appears to have left these shores (although to be honest we've heard that one before and there is often a later reoccurence of lastwordism) but again I'd ask people keep this civil or we'll shut the thread down while we sort through things.

Ask questions, answer them, request clarificatiion, clarify points, etc. but ad hominem abuse is not on the menu (techncailly it always has been but apparently some people seem to have missed the memo).
 
I'm not entirely certain whether there was a clear answer to whether the highly specific predictions, e.g. CJD/BSE, were published outside Mr Meier's circle before or after they events they predicted.
 
Right,

You are the one that is being immature, you asked us to research some facts and some people, we did, you dont like the answers so you sod off, so you go away feeling hard, probably masturbating over your conquering of a message board, the fact that you cant stand criticism is neither professional or proper. You would sooner swan off into the distance thinking to yourself that you are the one allmighty being, the most educated and mature person around.

You have no capacity to debate, I would not like to attend one of your lectures the first time I ask a question you would turn your nose up and say "you stupid little immature turd, you are so uneducated and an embarrasment to the planet, dont bother me with your pathetic questions I am better then you"

michael812 said:
I've spoken with physicists, astronomers, guys with top secret clearances, special effects experts and others who, initially, expressed skepticism or doubt. One thing they all did have in common was the ability to thnk and reason (I know how hearing that irritates you guys). They were actually responsive to the specifics and grounded enough in reality that they didn't keep pumping this rather immature, denial based flatulence as a substitute for careful thought.
Click to expand...

Once again only your word on that, but then I dont have the ability to think that, I cant possible say that these people dont exist or are just avid photo collectors because im not privvy to careful and independant thought.

Let me tell you alittle about myself Horn, I am a Ambulance Technician by trade, I work in a very busy city and constantly have to think and make decisions on the spur of the moment that could mean life and death to my patient, I was chosen to do this job because of my rational thinking and astute decision making, to have some jumped up little yank come one here and belittle my intelligence because he doesnt like the answer being presented to him makes me extremely mad.

I suggest YOU think before you speak, I have done my homework on this case, I have come to some of my own conclusions, I do not pretend to know everything about Meier and his claims, nor do I claim to be an expert in the field of UFO's, but I do claim to be capable of independant thought.

It is my right (like you said) to make my own judgment on people who post, and my judgement of you is a person that is so blinded and mindwarped by this case that YOU are no longer capable of independant thought, the thought that you just might have wasted 26years would be like putting a gun to your own head.
 
Right time for a quick overview from my viewpoint (feel free to clarfiy comment, etc. ;)

Irreproducibility

The whole point of Michael Horn starting this thread was the FT article but he failed to actually address the photos and stated on a number of occasions that the pictures weren't reproducible.

He also failed to even acknowledge the IIG's efforts:

www.iigwest.com/ufopix.html

They aren't as nice as FT's but they are there. ;)

There is still the issue of the movies and the audio but the debate has certainly started moving on from the position he was taking.

Authentication

Numerous times he stated that people with credentials authenticated the pictures. I have no idea how this can be done - the best one could do is state that they can't prove they aren't fakes which is a whole different ball game.

Fakery

There are numerous clear fakes (including a photogrpah of a model of a spaceship on a table at Billy Meire's house) - this is the real killer for me. Retroactively saying "oh yeah I knew that but forgot" just isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned. The purported disinfo comapring against Billy Meier includes such things as faking pictures, stealing a tree (which would have proved the scale of the ship), etc.

Even if one were to be more charitable and accept his half baked explanation it must fundamentally destroy his whole case because everything is up for grabs with this retroactive denial. How can anyone trust any of his evidence? It could all be faked to make him look silly (makes one wonder if Jeremy Beadle is behind all this).

Metal

This is, as far as I'm concerned the most important piece of evidence. As far as I have been able to ascertain the only evidence are some tests by a scientist who wasn't a metallurgist which was never written up in a report but is available as a video for $25 from Michael Horn. This isn't adequate by any measure (even if it was free) - a written report would just be the start of an investigation involving reporducing the results in other labs. IIG have offered the servcies of a metallurgist from Cambridge University but as far as anyone is aware possibly one of the most important pieces of evidence is missing.

This is potentially history making and if proved one of the most important discoveries for mankind and yet it sits in a state of limbo that only the most fanatical would accept as proof.

Prophecies

We didn't really get starteed on these (as we kept going round in circles trying to get answers to earlier questions). They are usually presented as:

911 WTC crash - confirmed

Now if that was how they were actually written down and widely disseminated then that'd be tuly impressive. Was it?

---------------
Thats how I see the land lying.

Anything else?
 
My hat is off to all of you. If we have not shown anything else on this thread, we have shown that WE DO THINK. I will say this this here once, I am proud to be in the company of such thinkers.
But.........then again, I think the Patterson Bigfoot film is real.......
Peace
=^..^=217
 
Reading some of Michael horns correspondance to IIG it all sounds very familiar, full of his usual rantings and put downs.

Treating everybody like complete muppets and basiclly down sizing everyone else's thoughts.

Michael said:
Viewing the facts that, next to the 360 spirit teaching study periodicals, the many
information and action-texts, the contact reports, as well as the bulletin and WZ
articles, he has, in the meanwhile, written or published, 3 novels, 1 story book,
and over 35 books, it can be concluded that the necessary time for the named
manipulations and falsifications on the contact reports could barely be found.
Click to expand...

So what your really saying is, because you cant conceive a way in which he found time to write/alter/fabricate anything it all must true.
SOURCE

That to me is the most pathetic piece of evidence I have ever witnessed, he obviously found time to write the "contacts" in the first place, it has also been proven that the so called "prophecies" were all freely availible pieces of information that appeared in newspapers and journals BEFORE he wrote and published his "contacts". SOURCE

So far your argument holds no water, IIG have challenged you to bring evidence for testing which all of a sudden has "dissapeared", they have made their own fake photo's which to me look no worse the Meiers efforts, and once again all your statements to them are just mindless babbling with no substance, full of pathetic innuendo and spindoctering.

SOURCE
 
Just caught up on the 9 pages since I last checked this thread.

Feel very sorry for the guy really - fancy pissing away chunks of your life to evangelically spread the 'truth' of Meir. :(
 
Well, you're certainly an impressive group of people. My hat's off to you, too. I know some of the Meier case, but more importantly I know -- did know -- the late Marcel Vogel who examined the metal specimen left by Billy's visitors.

I will tell you that he was the most extraordinary man I've ever known and he became a mentor for ten years before he died. Here's a little about him:http://www.vogelcrystals.net/legacy_of_marcel_vogel.htm

That site doesn't include any of Marcel's involvement in the Meier case. Since you have inspired me to get more information, I've written to "Rumi Da," the person who's been entrusted to archive and carry on some of his work. So far, he confirms that Marcel did not publish his findings about the metal specimen. I realize that is greatly disappointing to you, and from an investigator's perspective, I sympathize. However, he has agreed to look through Marcel's notebooks to see what more he can find.

I was very interested to see that Emperor zeroed in on the metal sample as being crucial to the case. I agree.

If you have any questions about Marcel's participation in the Meier case, I will be glad to relay them to Rumi Da and post his answers here.

Cheers!
vogel7fire
 
Welcome Vogel7fire.

Vogel does indeed look to be a remarkable man, the main problem being with this case is:

1) He is not a metallurgist

2) He hasnt published his findings anywhere

Surely if he claimed this piece of metal was truley not of this world, wouldnt he want it documented? I know I certainly would.

The problem being now, like all good paranormal stories, one of the key persons involved is no longer with us, and cant be contacted to verify any of the above.
 
Yes, Painy, I'd be shouting it to the world (that's exactly what I did when I started connecting with other worlders and it got me into a heap of trouble!) ;)

The existing "documentation" consists of the video Michael mentioned and a transcript of Marcel's findings in Stevens' UFO . . . Contact from the Pleiades Vol. II, Genesis Publications (and whadya' know . . . it's out of print!)

Yes, our source is probably very happy on the other side. Where's Sylvia Browne when we need her?

That's why the best I can offer at the moment is what I get from Marcel's right hand guy. I've submitted your questions/concerns/doubts to him, and really they are very legitimate concerns. For my own personal reasons, which are the stuff of a long story that begins with a vision of the Pleiades in 1971, I have every reason to accept Marcel's honesty and integrity. As I said, that's a LONG STORY.

There is a reason why Marcel, out of millions of scientists from all over the world, was selected. I will have the answers to "how and why" very shortly.

vogel7fire
 
vogel7fire said:
That site doesn't include any of Marcel's involvement in the Meier case. Since you have inspired me to get more information, I've written to "Rumi Da," the person who's been entrusted to archive and carry on some of his work. So far, he confirms that Marcel did not publish his findings about the metal specimen. I realize that is greatly disappointing to you, and from an investigator's perspective, I sympathize. However, he has agreed to look through Marcel's notebooks to see what more he can find.

I was very interested to see that Emperor zeroed in on the metal sample as being crucial to the case. I agree.
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Thanks for the reply :)

I'm happy to assume his authenticity, etc. but Painy highlights the main stumbling blocks: his qualifactions for the job and the lack of actual published results. I'd also ask if the tests were the right type to ascertain the answers we want.

This kind of issue means we aren't even at the first step in opening this up as a scientific debate and then the missing sample means it pretty much grinds to a halt before it even gets rolling.

If Rumi Da can unearth the sample then the IIG will get it tested and I'm sure everyone could agree to have it split and tested in two labs that everyone is satisfied with.

If the results can be reproduced in two separate labs then we can certainly move this whole thing one - as I say if shown to be actually of non-terrestrial manufacture then this is one fo the most important findings possibly in human history.
 
from Vogel website

He was one of the “Big Blue’s” few non-lettered scientists totally unqualified then

after almost 27 years as an IBM senior research scientist, Marcel retired and created his own laboratory, Psychic Research, Inc. The lab was dedicated to the study of subtle forces and energies that radiate from the body of living forms. Hmm.....

Marcel discovered that the greatest cohering agent is love. This, of course, set him apart from his fellow scientists Yes I bet it did
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Bold italics my sarcasm

As far as the multiple patents in his name go I have some experience here. It does not really indicate a lot of original (new art) thought on vogels part.
In the states handing over a cheque pretty much guarantees a patent. The US patent office is not very discriminating compared to europe - clashes of ideas just get taken to court wheres its duked out.

It reads to me like he was a talented dabbler who stumbled over a valuable idea or two, and whos ideas IBM couldn't nick because he had patented them well enough to make his victory in court probable - so they had no alternative to buy the guy out, on his terms. Kudos to him, but it doesnt mean a whole lot.

You will excuse me if I dont find any input from this late source at all credible then.
 
vogel7fire said:
That's why the best I can offer at the moment is what I get from Marcel's right hand guy. I've submitted your questions/concerns/doubts to him, and really they are very legitimate concerns. For my own personal reasons, which are the stuff of a long story that begins with a vision of the Pleiades in 1971, I have every reason to accept Marcel's honesty and integrity. As I said, that's a LONG STORY.

There is a reason why Marcel, out of millions of scientists from all over the world, was selected. I will have the answers to "how and why" very shortly.

vogel7fire
Click to expand...

The way you talk leads me to believe you also know Michael and Billy and have your own experiences with UFO's and Pleiadians.

Would I be right in thinking this?
 
Painy said:
vogel7fire said:
That's why the best I can offer at the moment is what I get from Marcel's right hand guy. I've submitted your questions/concerns/doubts to him, and really they are very legitimate concerns. For my own personal reasons, which are the stuff of a long story that begins with a vision of the Pleiades in 1971, I have every reason to accept Marcel's honesty and integrity. As I said, that's a LONG STORY.

There is a reason why Marcel, out of millions of scientists from all over the world, was selected. I will have the answers to "how and why" very shortly.

vogel7fire
Click to expand...

The way you talk leads me to believe you also know Michael and Billy and have your own experiences with UFO's and Pleiadians.

Would I be right in thinking this?
Click to expand...

Well they did say:

I will tell you that he was the most extraordinary man I've ever known and he became a mentor for ten years before he died.
Click to expand...

So yes. ;)

The name might be a give away too ;)
 
Emperor wrote:
If Rumi Da can unearth the sample then the IIG will get it tested and I'm sure everyone could agree to have it split and tested in two labs that everyone is satisfied with.

If the results can be reproduced in two separate labs then we can certainly move this whole thing one - as I say if shown to be actually of non-terrestrial manufacture then this is one fo the most important findings possibly in human history.
Click to expand...

And there's the rub! Here's what I received from Rumi Da:

Marcel told me that he did an analysis of the metal sample and the
findings were documented in the above mentioned film. After this he
said the metal sample disappeared from his lab jacket. He was
certain that he didn't misplace it. It was simply gone.

Marcel requested another sample and one was given to him. This,
however, turned out to be silver solder. He couldn't believe that
anyone would do this. As I recall another sample was similarly
silver, in other words not the same material with which he was
originally presented. I don't know what this was about but Marcel
wasn't very happy about the whole situation.

He was also presented with mineral samples and a hair sample. I
believe his findings about these are recorded in the video.

I don't know the back story to any of this (why someone would
give
him silver and indicate that it was the same sample from
a "beamship") but this is what he told me. As far as I know
he was
never given another genuine sample. If there are others around I
don't know about them.

I have inquired about another sample. If one exists in Switzerland, a group such as yours could write and request the protocol as you have laid it out. Would FIGU cooperate? That could be another rub! :(

The way you talk leads me to believe you also know Michael and Billy and have your own experiences with UFO's and Pleiadians.
Click to expand...

I personally met Michael when he was delivering a lecture to MUFON in Los Angeles. It was then that he presented his "higher standard of proof" criteria for the Meier case, that being the prophetically accurate information. I do not know Billy. Have I had my own experience with a UFO? Having classic symptoms and characteristics of PAS (post abduction syndrome), I would have to say yes. Have I had my own experiences with Pleiadeans? If I were to say I was a "contactee," I would be labeled by the Meier camp as a charlatan, a fraud, crazy, delusional, a liar, a megalomaniac, and thensome. But yes, I believe I have had an experience with a Plieadean -- the most incredibly beautiful being I have ever seen, emanating a vibration of pure love and peace -- who dematierialized. Twice this happened.

If I talk about my own personal experiences, we get off track here. Although if there's another relevant topic on this forum, point me to her! :D

Finally,
Amphairaus wrote:

You will excuse me if I dont find any input from this late source at all credible then.
Click to expand...

From a scientific point of view, I can't blame you.

vogel7fire[/b]
 
If I talk about my own personal experiences, we get off track here. Although if there's another relevant topic on this forum, point me to her! Very Happy
Click to expand...

There's a whole section of the website devoted to exactly that!

(click link) It Happened To Me!
 
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