Billy Meier

[Anonymous]

Incidentally how would anyone prove that a piece of metal is extraterrestrial?
Metal is metal, and the elements on other planets or in other solar systems have the same characteristics as those in our own.

Only the processing of the material might be different; to prove that a sample has been made outside the Earth you have to eliminate all forms of processing possible on our world; very difficult to do.

 

[Timble2]

Incidentally how would anyone prove that a piece of metal is extraterrestrial?
Metal is metal, and the elements on other planets or in other solar systems have the same characteristics as those in our own.

I believe it's possible for rocks with elements that exist in isotopic forms to demonstrate a non-terrestrial origin, because of the different proportions of the isotopes in the ET samples to comparable minerals from earth. Whether you could do this with a metal refined from ET rocks is an interesting point.

 

[vogel7fire]

Metal is metal, and the elements on other planets or in other solar systems have the same characteristics as those in our own.

We don't really know that unless some unknown metallurgist has been travelling backward and forwards in time on ships, collecting interplanetary and interstellar samples, and doing unpublished comparative studies, eh?

But your questions have been the same as mine. How do you know that a sample is of ET origin? The sample that Marcel Vogel examined was evidently not just metal. It was both metal and crystal at the same time.
Does matter like that exist on earth?

vogel7fire

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Metal is metal, and the elements on other planets or in other solar systems have the same characteristics as those in our own.

We don't really know that unless some unknown metallurgist has been travelling backward and forwards in time on ships, collecting interplanetary and interstellar samples, and doing unpublished comparative studies, eh?

But your questions have been the same as mine. How do you know that a sample is of ET origin? The sample that Marcel Vogel examined was evidently not just metal. It was both metal and crystal at the same time.
Does matter like that exist on earth?

This is why we realy need the results in a clear report form so we can see the numbers, etc. as a metalurgist would be able to answer those questions.

There may elements so rare they would be unlikely to be hoaxable or stuctures unlike those that would be produced by earthly manfucaturing processes -theya re the kinds of claims that were made for the space metal and if shown to be true and the interpretations of the results are accurate it would certainly be interesting.

It is, of course, possible a "space metal" sample may resemble earth metals but they are not what those preliminary tests purport to show so in some ways any tests would also be testing those tests too.

We won't know until we get the samples.

 

[vogel7fire]

Alas, dear Emperor and others. Here's what I said to you:

You've all clearly left me with a mission possible or mission impossible -- finding another metal specimen and establishing an acceptable protocol for its testing. For my dear Marcel's sake I will do whatever I can. You realize that this will mean contacting FIGU in Switzerland with whom I really have no direct relationship. My best bet is to connect with Michael Horn who is the American Media Representative for the Billy Meier case, knows Billy personally, and works with the FIGU organization there. Michael and I have a friendly online working relationship, I think, so I will see what I can do there.

It momentarily appears that I have failed in my "mission." There's been quite a discussion on the PAR forum about reopening Meier case evidence. Michael is evidently not in favor of having other metal samples tested.

It has been suggested that an "ad hoc" committtee of 10 review and discuss the issues of compiling available evidence, and I have no idea if that will come about, or if Michael has the sole authority to quash any recommendations at this stage.

I'm so sorry, but my hands are tied.

What now :?:
vogel7fire

 

[rynner2]

It momentarily appears that I have failed in my "mission." There's been quite a discussion on the PAR forum about reopening Meier case evidence. Michael is evidently not in favor of having other metal samples tested.

It has been suggested that an "ad hoc" committtee of 10 review and discuss the issues of compiling available evidence, and I have no idea if that will come about, or if Michael has the sole authority to quash any recommendations at this stage.

I'm so sorry, but my hands are tied.

What now :?:
vogel7fire

Vogel, you come across as a sensible enough person here, but I'm not so sure about the rest of Billy's fan club.

They appear to be 'true believers', but wordly enough to realise that whatever evidence they have (or had) might well be fallible under the harsh spotlight of unbiased scientific scrutiny, so their reluctance to submit more samples for analysis is understandable.

Mission Impossible indeed!

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Alas, dear Emperor and others. Here's what I said to you:

You've all clearly left me with a mission possible or mission impossible -- finding another metal specimen and establishing an acceptable protocol for its testing. For my dear Marcel's sake I will do whatever I can. You realize that this will mean contacting FIGU in Switzerland with whom I really have no direct relationship. My best bet is to connect with Michael Horn who is the American Media Representative for the Billy Meier case, knows Billy personally, and works with the FIGU organization there. Michael and I have a friendly online working relationship, I think, so I will see what I can do there.

It momentarily appears that I have failed in my "mission." There's been quite a discussion on the PAR forum about reopening Meier case evidence. Michael is evidently not in favor of having other metal samples tested.

It has been suggested that an "ad hoc" committtee of 10 review and discuss the issues of compiling available evidence, and I have no idea if that will come about, or if Michael has the sole authority to quash any recommendations at this stage.

I'm so sorry, but my hands are tied.

What now :?:

You gave it your best shot and thats all we can ask for. Ultimately the Believers don't need anymore evidence which the whole issue is left up in the air for a lot of us.

If they have metal samples then they have a responsibility to test it in a clear and unambiguous way but I won't hold me breath.

Thanks again for trying.

 

[ruffready]

FAKE!! FRAUD !! $$$$$ SUCKERS !! COME ONE COME ALL!!

 

[ruffready]

Sorry , I did not read all the post ! But take it from Ruff , all the Billy Meier's photos and he , himself are a fraud ..I found out while in the Navy . nuff said

 

[Reneehsv]

Sorry , I did not read all the post ! But take it from Ruff , all the Billy Meier's photos and he , himself are a fraud ..I found out while in the Navy . nuff said

Care to elaborate?

It's taken me all day practically to read this whole thread, but my thoughts were this...and I mean this with all due respect....I don't care what proof this Michael guy had/has/thought he had/did have before it disappeared, I wouldn't care if he had proof of Jesus Christ at his fingertips, the way he presented himself and his case totally turned me off to anything he had to say regarding this entire Meiers thing. If this case does have any validity at any point, the way it's been shoved down readers throats and the way he gets arrogant and calls people stupid and lazy for not doing their research so they "see the truth" ... well IMHO he's just an as*hole! I was raised Christian but do not to this day attend any church because the fundamentalists do the same things!

Again, IMHO, I agree this is very cult-like. No disprect to anyone here (I'm a rather new member to the boards) and goodness knows I don't want to make enemies but for Gawd's sake, get a grip. You don't come to a message board announcing you know the truth of all things then call people names when they want YOU to prove YOUR claims. If anyone wanted to learn more about Meiers before, they would've done so already. You come here making claims of some great man....you're the one who has to prove these things to be so. I wouldn't look up and research this case now if I had to!!!

Sorry! I'm off the soap box now. Whew!

 

[ruffready]

The following is a statement from Underground Video Inc. about the alleged photographs and stories of Billy Meier concerning the Pleiadian visitors he encountered.

BILLY MEIER EXPOSED!
Recently Underground Video began an in-depth inquiry into the most sensational UFO case in history. Our investigation first began as a supportive effort to verify the known fact of the Meier case to present the truth of alien-human contact to skeptics.

With the assistance of members from the Hollywood special effects team of the UltraMatrix Corporation we studied the Meier photographs and claims made by Meier's Talmud Jmmanuel, Genesis III Publishing, Light Years by Gary Kinder, The Pleiadian Connection by Randolf Winters, and the movie Contact. We also spent considerable time tracking the claims of "computer expert" and "Ph.D." Jim Dilettoso, as well as claims made through Michael Hesemann by Guido Moosbrugger from Meier's FIGU cult in Switzerland.

After six months of intense inquiry, with the assistance of cinematographers, physicists, and computer analysts from TotalResearch, we found the claims of the representatives of the Meier case to absolutely untrue. We discovered miniature models, and a variety of deceptive methods used to create this hoax. Additionally, an undercover "hidden camera" investigation penetrated the Meier cult in Switzerland, revealing irrefutable scientific evidence of FRAUD.

Underground Video was one of the foremost defenders of the Meier material. We are DISAPPOINTED to now learn the ENTIRE case is a hoax. Representations of any authenticity with regard to this case made by alleged scientific examination has proved to be totally unreliable and misleads the general public into believing a carefully fabricated lie. The persons who authenitcated the Meier case are not credible scientists nor investigators.

Any previous representations of authenticity of the Meier case in the Underground Video catalog should be ignored. Our findings will be presented to the Attorney General for possible prosecution for a Consumer Class Action Suit for Fraud. Underground Video will continue to make the Meier material available to investigators and the general public who desire to study the hoax and how it had been sold to the public for nearly 20 years.

Anyone who had previously purchased any Meier materials may write Underground Video to be included in a CONSUMER CLASS ACTION SUIT.

Underground Video
Meier Class Action Suit
PO BOX 527
Beverly Hills, CA 90213-0527



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Along with Underground Video's statement is a photograph showing one of Billy Meiers alleged Pleiadian beamships taken in 1981. After computer enhancement and careful scrutiny, it has been shown the Beamship is really a miniature model made out of an upside-down cake pan, disconnected copper hose fitting, a bracelet, carpet tacks and various other identifiable objects.

The Meier photograph of the beautiful Pleiadian alien, Semjase, turned out to be a photocopy of a model from a Sears Catalog. Another one of Meier's photographs, where he allegedly traveled into the future aboard a Pleiadian Beamship to photograph the aftermath of a 9.0 earthquake in San Francisco showing the toppled Trans-America building, turned out to be a realistic looking painting from a geology magazine article about earthquakes. On top of these damning examples, every single one of Billy Meier's photographs of Pleiadian ships have been shown to be of third, fourth and even fifth generation(photographs of photographs) This means the he likely airbrushed suspension wires and other signs of fraud. There is not one example of an original, first generation Billy Meier photograph. On top of that, it has been shown that the reflections on some of the Pleiadian ships are not consistent with the position of the sun, indicating possible superimposition techniques. To top it off, a reporter found a bunch of miniature models exactly matching many of the Pleiadian ships shown in his photos. His ex-wife has come out to denounce him as a fraud as well. The evidence is overwhelming that whole Billy Meier story is unquestionably, absolutely, completely and totally 100% BOGUS. Case Closed!

Billy Meier and his cohorts, have made a lot of money out of this scam. I applaud Underground Video for seeking the truth about the Billy Meier scam and disassociating itself from any involvement with Meier. Billy Meier has done more to hurt the legitimate field of UFO research than any other person alive today. It's really a shame.

Michael Taylor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SPACESHIPS OF THE PLEIADES - The Billy Meier Story (Kal K. Korff)

Skeptic page

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/scam.html His ex-wife has come out to denounce him as a fraud as well. The evidence is overwhelming that whole Billy Meier story is unquestionably, absolutely, completely and totally 100% BOGUS. Case Closed!

 

[ruffready]

The truth behind the most elaborate UFO hoax in history is revealed

SPACESHIPS
OF THE PLEIADES
The Billy Meier Story
Kal K. Korff
The case of Eduard "Billy" Meier has gained worldwide attention for his claims of being in "on-going contact with aliens from the star cluster known as the Pleiades. In this powerful new work, UFO researcher Kal K. Korff travelled to Switzerland undercover to investigate these claims.
Purportedly the most documented UFO account of all time, Billy Meier has taken 1,000 photographs and 12 motion picture films of the visiting spacecraft. Through thousands of pages of "contact notes, Meier has "passed on" the wisdom and advanced technical knowledge from his conversations with these aliens, designed to help guide our evolution. In addition, it is claimed that 40 independent eyewitnesses have also seen the alien ships and observed Meier's contacts with them. The aliens also "left" numerous "landing tracks" in the ground along with giving Meier various rock, metal, mineral, and crystal samples as "proof' of their visitations.

Korff conducted the most thorough examination ever into the case of Billy Meier and all its alleged evidence, revealing how a one-armed, handicapped Swiss farmer hatched and continues to maintained the most elaborate UFO hoax in history.

Kal K. Korff (San Jose, CA) is President and CEO of Total Research, a "think tank" which includes scientists, technicians, philosophers, and historians dedicated to studying humankind's most enduring mysteries and phenomena. He is the author of The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don't Want You to Know and more than 90 articles and regularly lectures on various topics including UFOs, nuclear energy, the JFK assassination, space exploration, multimedia technologies, and political/social issues.

439 pages (Photographs & Illustrations Throughout) Publication date 30th May, 1996

lSBN 0-87975-959-3

Return to Science and the Paranormal List
source http://www.hutch.demon.co.uk/prom/pleiad.htm

 

[Reneehsv]

Wasn't the post above (next to last) posted before in this thread? As I said, it's taken me all day (sorry boss.....no work accomplished today...sorry family....I'm busy this evening) to weed thru.

At any rate, whether any truth lies in any of this story is beyond me and quite frankly, when someone comes bombarding in claiming to believe in one man's stories and pretty much blows everyone off who has a question, THEN insults their intelligence...that to me is totally unfreakinridiculous!!!!!

I believe in a lot of things, or half way believe in a lot of things, but I'm NOT gullable.

I apologize for the outburst and I'm usually a lot easier to get along with, but good grief....the manner in which this guy has posted has me irritated. I coulda kept my irritation to myself but I've had 5 beers now so I can't help it.

 

[ruffready]

Billy Meier What A Joke!

:gaga: here read this and go settle down http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread53600/pg1 Billy Meier What A Joke!

 

[Reneehsv]

Ok ok....settled down now.

LOL at the Unidentified kitchen untensil remark though. Mixing bowls...that's funny!!!!

Seriously though, I think I believe in UFOs although I've never seen one. I do believe SOMETHING is out there although I wont go so far as to claim I Have a clue what it may be. I have never had any experience in that area. I just don't like it when people get their feathers ruffled when claiming something but get upset when questioned. I've had a couple ghosts experiences...can I prove those....NO! I can only relate what I experienced and my family experienced. Do I claim to know the hows and whys.....NO.

Oh well....on to drink number 7 (man these taste like water).

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Wasn't the post above (next to last) posted before in this thread? As I said, it's taken me all day (sorry boss.....no work accomplished today...sorry family....I'm busy this evening) to weed thru.

Yep I posted the Underground Video statement (and the link to the abovetopsecret site too - can people read the thread before posting the information again? It felt like we were going around in circles as it was!! ) and Michael Horn responded to it too before leaving.

 

[ruffready]

Oh well....on to drink number 7 (man these taste like water)

:yeay: I have had a few myself night! :lol:

 

[Reneehsv]

Did we meet you last week when we were on vacation at the beach? :lol:

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

Just thought I would share this with anyone who hasnt seen it, apologies to those that have.

http://www.billymeier.com/Contacts/Contact251.html

This is a pretty long transcript of an exchange between Meir and Ptaah.

Seeing as it contains get outs for all the evidence (Plajarens making it look fake, tampering by people etc.) all that is left as interference free or 'real' then are these transcripts.

Has anyone got access to some text comparison software that can compare word choice and use between two pieces of writing? Perhaps in the original German. If you could compare Ptaah's quotes to Billy' it would be interesting to see the result.
(no doubt the aliens made sure they used the same language, word choice and sentence construction as Billy so that such comparisons showed the same author, thus confounding investigation )

My favourite sections are:

Billy: And who is to do all this re-editing?

Ptaah: Probably you will not find the time, although you are predestined to do it. And yet, perhaps, you should not be considered for this task. I would like to suggest that Mariann does it, if she is willing; but it would take up a much of her time and would restrict her freedom.

This follows Ptaah's warnings that certain others in the groups are writing books, and that they are not good enough for the public. Therefore they will need checking and editing by Meir (or his crony Mariann because he cant be bothered). HAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry, just slipped out


If you do check out the link, see the section about animal symbology - total cobblers in every concievable way.

And the Mother of all get outs:

In your defense I am permitted today to speak officially about these matters and the fact that we used special techniques to analyze and evaluate in great detail the movie and photo montages, along with the movie trick photography used by all those bogus and deceitful, purported contactees or UFO observers. We found that their falsified movie and photo material appealed to terrestrial humans, particularly to those so-called UFO experts who call themselves ufologists and the like, and this even includes some well-respected scientists. The absurdity of the falsifications, and the people who believed them, is stunning yet extremely effective. For this reason, we executed maneuvers with our genuinely existing flying objects, e.g., jerky pendulum movements and certain skipping and floating movements, which ordinarily are not a part of our flying objects' normal movements and flight techniques. Instead, they appeared like those ridiculous, abrupt pendulum and strange swaying movements of the manipulated movies and photos by the UFO swindlers, liars and charlatans. The fact that we chose to execute these movement types is based on the reasoning that they, in particular, would result in the worldwide, fierce UFO controversy which resulted in many hardships for you, of course. You were accused of fraud, deceit, charlatanry and, indeed, dishonesty. You were further charged with constructing models and then photographing and filming them. Often we felt very sorry for you, but were unable to change any of this. Only by executing certain flight maneuvers, which you then were able to film, photograph and disseminate throughout the globe, was the worldwide UFO controversy ensured that led to the previously mentioned outcome. In the future, they will also bring about additional and by now urgently needed results. It may be some consolation to you now to know that everything has occurred with the desired and intended outcome, and that you are now the most important person in matters related to contacts with extraterrestrials and UFO affairs --- you probably are the most famous personality worldwide in these matters

 

[Anonymous]

I cannot believe that the Meiere obsessed cult followers are pasting the same crap on other message boards as they have on this one! Look at Aurelius's posts and you'll see what I mean. TIme after time it's the same old bollocks..."I have met the guy and believe me, I saw no money being made"...and the..." Michael Horn spent 25 years researching this with his own money (Yeah, sure!)"
It's unbelievable. I wonder...do these people go round the net trying to recruit through subtle cohersion like street evangalists and doorstep preachers? It seems so!
Wankers.

 

[Anonymous]

Aye. I Laughed through gritted teeth at the balls about them making the UFOs look faked on purpose! What a load of unimaginative bollocks!
Just looked at some footage where the nutter zooms in on a model UFO suspended on some wire just to highlight the fact that he's rigged batteries and some small lights (Xmas tree lights?) to it and didn't want to lose the effect after arsing about to get them there! It's so blatant the way the camera fixes on the only one visible. Horn and his cult cronies even used this to suggest it cannot be a model because it has lights on it!!!
As for the Beam ship sounds...that synthasiser effect was available in the early 60s! How on Earth anyone can say it cannot be man made is beyond me!
Equally...how anyone with even the slightest knowledge of photography can say that these photographs are genuine, let alone professionals appears to me to be utter bollocks too.
They behave like hardened religious zealots with their "Thou must not worship false Idols" crap. "All other contactees and abductees and UFO witnesses are charlatans *Heretics*..." Sound familiar?
They really do get aggressive when noone falls for their religious crap. WHere's MEier's motives? Money? I don't think so.." YES! Money and religious worship. HE wants to build a religious empire based on the Holy Bible, but with crude and ineffective editing. It's all propaganda aimed at recruiting more sheep to join his army of wankers.
Sorry if I sounded brutal there but this debate has been going on for some time now and polite gesture has got us nowhere.
I am still waiting to see the results of the "Metal tests"

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

It's unbelievable. I wonder...do these people go round the net trying to recruit through subtle cohersion like street evangalists and doorstep preachers? It seems so!

Yep I think they do. It is a faith based cult, and just like others if you have been enligtened you want to share your good fortune!

Their own doctrine (from the mouth of Billy) says the lack of evidence is part of the plan.
There will be no samples of anything. Indeed evidence would be counter to:

Our stations no longer exist either; everything has been restored to the way it looked originally; no trace of our stay here can be found.

I think if you want to deprogram them you will have to do it using their own crazy logic.

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

WHere's MEier's motives? Money? I don't think so.." YES! Money and religious worship. HE wants to build a religious empire based on the Holy Bible, but with crude and ineffective editing.
I am still waiting to see the results of the "Metal tests"

Spot on. When he gets wind of other cult members trying to write books he uses the published contact transcripts to become involved, and if money is involved get his nose in the trough. If they resist then what they write is not 'approved' by the Plajarens.

Also there will be no metal sample. In another comedy script the real samples just faded away ('cos them Plajs are tricky buggers) - ergo any samples left are fake. When any forthcoming samples are found to be regular metal they can say we told you so! perfect circular argument to show they are genuine! HAHAHAHA

 

[AMPHIARAUS]

http://www.billymeier.com/Contacts/Contact249.html

Here Ptaah explains that Billy didnt steal other peoples work - oh no... they really stole his. Beyond all belief.

Billy: Here now is something personal: Basically, I wrote the instructions for meditation after I had learned them from Sfath and Asket. But even at a young age I wrote about meditation before I put everything into a final format and published it during the 70s. And it is exactly for these instructions to meditation, or the meditation book, respectively, that I was accused twice already of plagiarizing my written material from another book.

Ptaah: I am familiar with this absurd claim. The title of the book, which you are accused of plagiarizing, is Spiritual Training Through Attentiveness. You should not concern yourself with this preposterous defamation, for none of its points is based upon the truth, as you very well know. The truth is that Sfath, and you may not remember this anymore, had translated the Satipatthäna method into German for you from various Pali and Sanskrit texts; and Asket did the same in 1954. It is for this reason that you had in your possession two almost identical translations. In 1948, as an 11-year old boy in the fourth grade, you produced a dictated manuscript of 83 handwritten pages from Sfath's translation under the guidance of your teacher, Mr. Lehmann. This manuscript was done so well that your teacher mimeographed 200 copies and mailed them to several people; among them was Rahat Sanghanan, a monk, whom you met much later on in your life with Asket's help. He instructed you in a variety of subjects. His name as monk was Maha Chohan, which means the "Great Master". He, in turn, was the person responsible for producing several copies of your manuscript during that same year, 1948, and sent them to several of his peers. This resulted in the first printed version. In 1954 Asket provided you with a new translation, which you used to revise and produce your previous text on meditation. Together with Asket, when she brought you to him, you offered your new version that same year to monk Rahat Sanghanan. Sanghanan deemed your work excellent, and again he made some copies of it and mailed them to his peers. Together with Swami Dharmawara, who is called Ananda Mahatma ("happy great soul"), you revised your work once again during a 3-month period in 1964, while staying in India at the Ashoka Ashram in Mehrauli. Swami Ramana Sarma translated it into English and had it printed up. Then he disseminated 2600 copies of this text; 2100 copies more than the monk Rahat Sanghanan previously printed in 1948. Therefore, from the time you initially produced your first work on meditation in 1948, your material provided the basis for many other books on meditation, but their individual authors were never mentioned, and no clarification was ever made that these sundry other works stemmed from your initial material. On the contrary, the individual authors always asserted that they had been the producers of these texts or books. Indeed, they even claimed they were the translators of the original text in the Pali and Sanskrit languages, although it really originated through Sfath and Asket's effort. Several individuals who claim to be authors speak neither Pali nor Sanskrit.

Billy: What about the individual who wrote the book you mentioned earlier? Where did that person get the information on the instructions to meditation I had written?

Ptaah: You mean the Buddhist monk Nyanaponika. — He obtained his wisdom about meditation from your initial text just as several others did.

Anyone want to defend this? Please.

 

[painy2]

For those of you that havent seen any of Meier's video's here is 3 of them.

Limited downloads once again im afraid.

Meier 1

Meier 2

Meier 3

 

[vogel7fire]

As I'm learning from some of the English here, those video clips look like another load of unimaginative bollocks! Yes, I agree some of the stuff they're putting out is total cobblers. Wankers. (Spot on, vogel7fire)

How am I doing so far? Your expressions have me laughing at my keyboard! Teach me more

I'm astounded that some of you are still with this. Since you are, here's a suggestion. I know a really fine bloke whose main specialty is the evidentiary value of the photos and film footage in the Meier case. I know, I know, you probably don't want another link, but I don't know how else to connect you with him. His name is Marc Juliano, a very logical, reasonable,and diplomatic chap. I know he would cooperate with you in any way he could. http://www.steelmarkonline.com/ On the left hand menu, click on "Our Staff."

Ta ta,
vogel7fire

 

[Reneehsv]

I don't know about anyone else.....but I say

HMMMMMMM.........

 

[vogel7fire]

Amphiaraus wrote:

Anyone want to defend this? Please.

I'm not going to defend it or much of the material that I've discovered that I can't possibly swallow hook, line, and sinker. There are only certain aspects of the case that I focus on, that are of interest, and that, for me, are believeable.

When I discovered the FIGU-represented material online in 1998, I also had the distinct impression that I was dealing with another fundamentalist cult. I think there's some truth in that, and it was a terrible shock and disappointment. I've gradually met independent thinkers, researchers, and others who challenge the material -- they have made it palatable for me to remain interested.

vogel7fire

 

[painy2]

As I'm learning from some of the English here, those video clips look like another load of unimaginative bollocks! Yes, I agree some of the stuff they're putting out is total cobblers. Wankers. (Spot on, vogel7fire)

How am I doing so far? Your expressions have me laughing at my keyboard! Teach me more

I'm astounded that some of you are still with this. Since you are, here's a suggestion. I know a really fine bloke whose main specialty is the evidentiary value of the photos and film footage in the Meier case. I know, I know, you probably don't want another link, but I don't know how else to connect you with him. His name is Marc Juliano, a very logical, reasonable,and diplomatic chap. I know he would cooperate with you in any way he could. http://www.steelmarkonline.com/ On the left hand menu, click on "Our Staff."

Ta ta,
vogel7fire

Apologies if this sounds harsh, but that website is another over zealous religious orientated pile of crap.

Every website that has been posted by yourself and Michael has only tried to heap praise on Billy and make everyone belive he is the "Aliens" messiah.

What ever happened to open debate and seeing things from a negative point of view aswell as a positive point of view?

The more I read into this case the more I want to side with Spillage.

The TJ to me is a piece of "evidence" that cannot be regarded as evidence, it does not exsist anymore, there is no carbon dating of it, there is no proof it was written before Matthew, there is no proof it even ever exsisted.

Billy is looking more and more like a religious nut who wants to be remembered for making a cult that believes in him, he wants fame, he wants notoriety, he wants people to remember the name Billy Meier.

 

[vogel7fire]

Painy wrote:

What ever happened to open debate and seeing things from a negative point of view aswell as a positive point of view?

I'm all for that. If you know of a better site for having a pro and con debate about the Meier material, please point me to it. I would be very interested in a forum like that!

Painy wrote:

Every website that has been posted by yourself and Michael has only tried to heap praise on Billy and make everyone belive he is the "Aliens" messiah.

Well, I've re-read my posts and see that I've directed to three different sites. The first was "The Legacy of Marcel Vogel," and that was simply to give you some idea of the man. The second was the "Plejarans are Real" site and that was to let you know that I had made a request on your behalf and to invite you to bring your challenges to the forum. The third was the Steelmark site and that was for the purpose of connecting you with someone who I thought could offer some better photographic evidence. I had no intention of subtly, or not-so-subtly, indoctrinating you, or persuading you, or leading you to cult-like thinking!

For my part, I know I am innocent of what spillage says and what you apparently echo:

spillage wrote:

It's unbelievable. I wonder...do these people go round the net trying to recruit through subtle cohersion like street evangalists and doorstep preachers? It seems so!
Wankers.

While I know I'm innocent, I nonetheless apologize if my presence and input here has given you the impression that I am an internet evangelist for the Billy Meier case. I've obviously not made myself clear enough to you. I came here as someone who shares and understands your many doubts about the case. I came here with an interest in strengthening some of the physical evidence (i.e. the metal sample analysis) by bolstering it with credible inquiry. I came here and shared that my first impressions also "read" a fundamentalist cult that I initially found appalling.

I have in no way attempted to shove any belief system down your throats, nor have I even attempted to shove the case in part, or in whole, down your throats. In fact, I don't even think I've stated my position on any number of things. For the most part, I have remained consistenly concerned about further testing of a metal sample, and I have gladly told you my own personal story that led me to the Meier case in the first place.

Have your doubts, and objections and criticisms and outrage all you want. Those are the "cons" of the debate. When I haven't attempted to point you in the direction of the "pros" of the debate, it's probably because I agree with you.

The two Meier-related sites I've posted are ones I'm familiar with. I don't know of others where we could engage in a more objective look at the material.

In the meantime, I haven't entirely given up on acquiring another metal sample. Some others haven't either. I'm now trying to locate, for lack of a better title, "The "Director of Meier Case Evidence." I don't know if such a position even exists, but someone(s) determine what material is considered in the case and what material is not.

As for all the "spiritual," "religious" stuff -- I find it terribly unfortunate that it's coming across that Meier followers are worshiping the Aliens "Messiah." I have right from the beginning. I have many times expressed that it's hurting other parts of the case. But there does seem to be some agenda in UFOlogy today that associates UFO cases -- not just the Meier case -- with religious themes. That's a whole discussion in and of itself.

vogel7fire