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Blasphemy

OldTimeRadio said:
Ramon, if I kneel at your feet and lay down before you the trinkets and treasures of my previous religion, would you admit that you STOLE these from me?

Most objective onlookers would say that I GAVE them to you, to do with as you pleased.

Nope. The RCC assimilated Brigid. In olden days if anyone suggested that St Brigid had once been Pagan Godess then they would have been handed over to the Inqusition. Even in the not so distant past they would have been imprisoned for blasphemy.
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
I do not see why you think there is a difference between Religon and curry, surely you, Ramon being an atheist (or at least anti-orginised religion), see religion as any more than a social construct that gives character and individuality to a society in much the same way as cuisine, politcical stances, forms of entertainment - all types of culture.

Curry is a tangible thing. Religion is an intangible belief like say brlief in the Easter Bunny (hmm maybe they assimilated that as well).

The RC church may not admit that it assimilated them but that is NOT stealing. The RC church has indeed questioned over its history the truth behind their saints. Look at the defrocking of St Christopher.


Yes, it has gotten rid of a few Saints, but NOT (I can do that as well) the "powerful" ones.

You make it sound like the RC church had a systematic and controlled policy of assimilation rather than the hap-hazard way that Xtianity spread.

I dont see how you took that from a couple of sentences unless you were spoiling for a fight.

It wasn't as if the church trundled into Ireland and said 'We'll take this as OUR saint'. More likely the Irish converts continued telling the stories of their mythology but gave them Christian overtones - as any story that has travelled through a cultural change would.

Well I reckon its more a case of the RCC finding it easier to control the locals if they robbed the local deities. Once they were assimilated, it was a crime against god to suggest that there had ever been a time when they hadnt been part of the church.

Then sometime later a visiting monk who is travelling the world collecting stories of saints in order to create a cataloge visits Ireland and comes across the story of St Brigid. Not knowing the pagan origins of the saint he records it and St Brigid becomes a vatican recognised saint.

I have no idea what you base this on.

You simplify the spread of Christianity far too much Ramon.

Nah, you just like to argue.
 
If I was a pagan living in the past, worshiping Brigid in a pagan way, and I was forced by the Church to worship Brigid in a Christian way, would that be 'theft?'
 
QuaziWashboard said:
If I was a pagan living in the past, worshiping Brigid in a pagan way, and I was forced by the Church to worship Brigid in a Christian way, would that be 'theft?'
No.
 
ghostdog19 said:
QuaziWashboard said:
If I was a pagan living in the past, worshiping Brigid in a pagan way, and I was forced by the Church to worship Brigid in a Christian way, would that be 'theft?'
No.

What would it be then? Religious imperialism? Or is forcible conversion ok?
 
ramonmercado said:
rjmrjmrjm said:
Ramon, again that is a point of contention - with no real way of explaining how much christianity was influenced by existing cultural groupings. But I do not see it as stealing.

I was more annoyed by the idea that Xtianity 'takes the piss' of other religions? How exactly?

They stole St Brigid / Of course they dont acknowledge it. To do so would prove that their religion is built on lies.
No evidence. Speculation, not fact.

Most historians are agreed that she was a real person and that the story of her life was embellished somewhat (politically motivated.. in fact that's invariably the case and usually lies at the heart of the truth... her piety is well documented, but then it wouldn't be, as is the fact that her father, Dubhthach, was a pagan). The notion you put forward is speculation.

Top tip; better suited to your argument is Mithras (which I've talked about before). But you have to remember the political motivation and that even Christians objected to it and were persecuted just as much as Pagans were for objecting too.
 
Its not speculation. Brigid has been assimilated into the teachings of the RCC & CoI. What? Is it just coincidence that this person Brigid suddenly appears as a Christian Saint when worship of the Pagan Godess is supressed?
 
Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

Kindly name and illustrate what % they are of the total who deal with the issue.
 
ramonmercado said:
Its not speculation. Brigid has been assimilated into the teachings of the RCC & CoI. What? Is it just coincidence that this person Brigid suddenly appears as a Christian Saint when worship of the Pagan Godess is supressed?
Where are the facts then? And as for them being one and the same, what are you saying, that a pagan Goddess founded a school of art and ran metal work classes? That doesn't sound like assimilation to me, more like national curriculum ;)
 
ramonmercado said:
Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

Kindly name and illustrate what % they are of the total who deal with the issue.
oh boy. look it up. Because for as likely as you're not kindly illustrating your point I'm not going to waste an afternoon googling for you. Shouldn't take you long, it's pretty thoroughly documented. The point you're trying to establish as some sort of fact however.... not so easy ;)
 
It's actually quite likely that she's a combination of a real person who picked up some aspects and stories of a local goddess, as famous people are apt to do.

Sometimes it's hard to tell where one starts and the other begins.
 
ramonmercado said:
Is it just coincidence that this person Brigid
Er.... her dad was pagan, do the math for yourself and work it out. He named her after his deity one would assume. Thank your lucky stars Home and Away wasn't on telly back then ;)
 
Timble2 said:
It's actually quite likely that she's a combination of a real person who picked up some aspects and stories of a local goddess, as famous people are apt to do.

Sometimes it's hard to tell where one starts and the other begins.
I agree.
 
ghostdog19 said:
ramonmercado said:
Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

Kindly name and illustrate what % they are of the total who deal with the issue.
oh boy. look it up. Because for as likely as you're not kindly illustrating your point I'm not going to waste an afternoon googling for you. Shouldn't take you long, it's pretty thoroughly documented. The point you're trying to establish as some sort of fact however.... not so easy ;)

I posted stuff about the godess. You made an unsupported assertion that: Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

It now looks as if you cannot back that up.

You are the one who has made a claim that you cannot prove.

Laugh that off :lol:
 
ghostdog19 said:
ramonmercado said:
Is it just coincidence that this person Brigid
Er.... her dad was pagan, do the math for yourself and work it out. He named her after his deity one would assume. Thank your lucky stars Home and Away wasn't on telly back then ;)

I really cannot see what point you are trying to make there.

Why not just produce your standing army of historians who back you up?
 
Since you wouldn't accept any evidence that she was a real person, which when it comes down to it is some pretty ancient documents, it's really a matter of opinion whether the documents are an embellished account of a real life or a pious fiction that hijacks the myths of a local deity.

Nearly one and a half millenia after the supposed events all you have is the documents and opinions.
 
ramonmercado said:
ghostdog19 said:
ramonmercado said:
Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

Kindly name and illustrate what % they are of the total who deal with the issue.
oh boy. look it up. Because for as likely as you're not kindly illustrating your point I'm not going to waste an afternoon googling for you. Shouldn't take you long, it's pretty thoroughly documented. The point you're trying to establish as some sort of fact however.... not so easy ;)

I posted stuff about the godess. You made an unsupported assertion that: Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

It now looks as if you cannot back that up.

You are the one who has made a claim that you cannot prove.

Laugh that off :lol:
 
Timble2 said:
Since you wouldn't accept any evidence that she was a real person, which when it comes down to it is some pretty ancient documents, it's really a matter of opinion whether the documents are an embellished account of a real life or a pious fiction that hijacks the myths of a local deity.

Nearly one and a half millenia after the supposed events all you have is the documents and opinions.


Oh, I'm not saying some aspects of a real person werent included in St Brigid. It just that a Pagan Godess was alsp assimilated/stolen to advance the Christian campaign against the Old Religion.
 
ghostdog19 said:
ramonmercado said:
ghostdog19 said:
ramonmercado said:
Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

Kindly name and illustrate what % they are of the total who deal with the issue.
oh boy. look it up. Because for as likely as you're not kindly illustrating your point I'm not going to waste an afternoon googling for you. Shouldn't take you long, it's pretty thoroughly documented. The point you're trying to establish as some sort of fact however.... not so easy ;)

I posted stuff about the godess. You made an unsupported assertion that: Most historians are agreed that she was a real person

It now looks as if you cannot back that up.

You are the one who has made a claim that you cannot prove.

Laugh that off :lol:

Err, there was nothing new in that. Are you left speechless or just repeating yourself?
 
Timble2 said:
Since you wouldn't accept any evidence that she was a real person, which when it comes down to it is some pretty ancient documents, it's really a matter of opinion whether the documents are an embellished account of a real life or a pious fiction that hijacks the myths of a local deity.

Nearly one and a half millenia after the supposed events all you have is the documents and opinions.
St Patrick left a confession by his own hand, but even I wouldn't commit to saying it was his hand. Like you say, documents and opinions is all we've got. From which we can speculate, but that's all it is is speculation, not facts.

Interestingly, Brigit as a deity doesn't originate in Ireland (or rather it's not certain that she does, stands to reason given the migration of the pagans). Again, commonly agreed based on all we have to go on, her origins route right back to Austria where the town of Bregenz possibly after Brigant. So the pagan goddess herself underwent quite a number of changes and interpretations and who knows who the people or Ireland worshiped before she arrived and was assimilated (which is the sort of word you'd expect to hear from a Cyberman).
 
ghostdog19 said:
Timble2 said:
Interestingly, Brigit as a deity doesn't originate in Ireland. Again, commonly agreed based on all we have to go on, her origins route right back to Austria where the town of Bregenz possibly after Brigant. So the pagan goddess herself underwent quite a number of changes and interpretations and who knows who the people or Ireland worshiped before she arrived and was assimilated (which is the sort of word you'd expect to hear from a Cyberman).

Yes she "arrived" here through Celtic influences and was worshipped for approx 800 yrs when Christianity arrived and stole her.


was assimilated (which is the sort of word you'd expect to hear from a Cyberman

The Borg actually. (Who resemble Islam)
 
ramonmercado said:
The Borg actually. (Who resemble Islam)
Wtf? In what way? The cube? (possible I suppose) The cyborg technology? The black leather?
*scratches head*
Or just cos Americans invented 'em and they're baddies?
 
_Lizard23_ said:
ramonmercado said:
The Borg actually. (Who resemble Islam)
Wtf? In what way? The cube? (possible I suppose) The cyborg technology? The black leather?
*scratches head*
Or just cos Americans invented 'em and they're baddies?

The borg were stolen from Doctor Who - the Cybermen were the originals.

And they're nothing to do with Islam, more to do with surrendering humanity to technology.
 
Ok, we are wandering off the topic of blasphemy here and I feel I am responsible, at least in part. I have said all I need to say but if people want to pursue this discussion perhaps we should start a new topic?
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
Ok, we are wandering off the topic of blasphemy here and I feel I am responsible, at least in part. I have said all I need to say but if people want to pursue this discussion perhaps we should start a new topic?
What, on the Borg? ;)
 
Timble2 said:
_Lizard23_ said:
ramonmercado said:
The Borg actually. (Who resemble Islam)
Wtf? In what way? The cube? (possible I suppose) The cyborg technology? The black leather?
*scratches head*
Or just cos Americans invented 'em and they're baddies?

The borg were stolen from Doctor Who - the Cybermen were the originals.

And they're nothing to do with Islam, more to do with surrendering humanity to technology.

Ok, I admit I was being nasty & deliberately provocative in that one! Only kidding! :twisted:
 
Mary Condren wrote: The Serpent And The Goddess: Women, Religion And Power In Celtic Ireland. New Island Books, 1989. Latest edition, June 2002.

Theres an interview with her at this link. Covering the subject matter of the book amongst other matters.

Originally, I was going to do my doctorate on Brigit, but I realized very quickly that you could not do a historical doctorate on Brigit because the history wasn’t there. What you had was a collection of myths, folk tales, saints’ lives and whatever. And so over four chapters then I traced the role of Brigit: her role as goddess and the remnants and traces of Brigit in the old literature; her rise as Abbess of Kildare or Christian saint; and then the demise of Brigit. Then in the context of the sexual politics of the Irish Church I began to explore what it meant. The Abbess of Kildare who was the descendant of Brigit was raped in the twelfth century and that basically brought an end to that powerful lineage of powerful abbesses. But I also argued then that that was only symptomatic of a much wider erasure of female power and female genealogies that had happened through the rise in power of male control of religious rites of which Ireland was a part. So that was the "Age of Brigit".

http://www.tallgirlshorts.net/marymary/marycondren.html
 
ramonmercado said:
...because the history wasn’t there. What you had was a collection of myths, folk tales, saints’ lives and whatever...

You do realise that the people who are organizing the Brigit festival are using these materials the exactly same way that the Catholic Church used them...reinterpreting them for their own purposes?
 
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