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Charles Manson

Floyd1 said:
Right. It's bugged me for years.

But on the example I gave (Royston Place) it doesn't seem that there would have ever been enough room because there are jumps of eight 8's and a 4 on one side and anywhere between jumps of 5 and 14 on the other.
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:dunno:

maximus otter
 
I also lived in another town in a small house on a lot with a larger home. The address was for the street the house faced, different from the larger home which faced another street. I was given the address as a certain number, so I could file for 'change of address' with the post office.
Well when I moved in, the number of the house had been changed to a completely different number, from number 19 to number 27, never got an explanation for that. I guess I just got used to all this madness. :)
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
I also lived in another town in a small house on a lot with a larger home. The address was for the street the house faced, different from the larger home which faced another street. I was given the address as a certain number, so I could file for 'change of address' with the post office.
Well when I moved in, the number of the house had been changed to a completely different number, I guess I just got used to all this madness. :)
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And here I was thinking that you yanks were logical and set everything out properly. I'm going to have to review my erroneous beliefs.
 
An excellent documentary on Jay Sebring, by his nephew Anthony DiMaria.
Heartbreaking to watch someone so young and talented who didn't get to live his wonderful future:
(You have to sign in to confirm your age on youtube in order to watch this video, but it's worth it!)

 
The final interview with Virginia Graham, cellmate of Susan Atkins who helped to solve the Tate/LaBianca murders:

 
Lord Lucan said:
The final interview with Virginia Graham, cellmate of Susan Atkins who helped to solve the Tate/LaBianca murders:

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Lord Lucan, that was a great interview with Virginia Graham, even she said that none of them should ever get out of prison.
And I must have missed what she finally said about the reward given - did she and Ronnie share the reward money?
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
Lord Lucan, that was a great interview with Virginia Graham, even she said that none of them should ever get out of prison.
And I must have missed what she finally said about the reward given - did she and Ronnie share the reward money?
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I'll be honest, I was doing stuff as this was playing in the background, so I can't answer your question. I'll have to re-watch it again and pay greater attention.
 
I'm listening to a podcast on Manson and surfing for info at the same time and have come across a couple of interesting titbits.

Below is a link to Tex Watson's prison Ministry ironically called 'Abounding Love' where you can download his book 'Will You Die For Me?' in pdf format for free.

https://www.aboundinglove.org/books/will-you-die-for-me

Next up is an online memorial written after the death of 'Sexy Sadie' Susan Atkins by none other than the one and only 'Son of Sam', David Berkowitz.
The internet can be a fucking strange place at times.

https://www.ariseandshine.org/september-2009/susan-is-dead
 
Lord Lucan said:
I'm listening to a podcast on Manson and surfing for info at the same time and have come across a couple of interesting titbits.

Below is a link to Tex Watson's prison Ministry ironically called 'Abounding Love' where you can download his book 'Will You Die For Me?' in pdf format for free.

https://www.aboundinglove.org/books/will-you-die-for-me

Next up is an online memorial written after the death of 'Sexy Sadie' Susan Atkins by none other than the one and only 'Son of Sam', David Berkowitz.
The internet can be a fucking strange place at times.

https://www.ariseandshine.org/september-2009/susan-is-dead
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I'm not one for the death penalty, but in this case it's just too bad California abolished it in time to save them all.
Then they ridiculously brought it back and it didn't apply to the Manson murderers anymore.
And allowing them to write books to be published? Just insanity, in my opinion.
Abigail Folger was a true humanitarian, Jay Sebring struggled for years and was a rising star in the hair styling industry, Steven Parent was just a kid who was in the wrong place, Sharon Tate only wanted to have her baby and be happy, really sad for all the victims.
And then nutjob Berkowitz is allowed a voice through some type of 'religious' organization?
Good grief.
 
Lord Lucan said:
I'm listening to a podcast on Manson and surfing for info at the same time and have come across a couple of interesting titbits.

Below is a link to Tex Watson's prison Ministry ironically called 'Abounding Love' where you can download his book 'Will You Die For Me?' in pdf format for free.

https://www.aboundinglove.org/books/will-you-die-for-me

Next up is an online memorial written after the death of 'Sexy Sadie' Susan Atkins by none other than the one and only 'Son of Sam', David Berkowitz.
The internet can be a fucking strange place at times.

https://www.ariseandshine.org/september-2009/susan-is-dead
Click to expand...

As American police officers are wont to say, “Jesus must be in prison, because everyone who goes there finds him.”

maximus otter
 
Lord Lucan said:
Next up is an online memorial written after the death of 'Sexy Sadie' Susan Atkins by none other than the one and only 'Son of Sam', David Berkowitz.
The internet can be a fucking strange place at times.

https://www.ariseandshine.org/september-2009/susan-is-dead
Click to expand...
I for one believe in the possibility and the power of redemption, even for the most heinous criminals. And I believe in the power of spiritual practice as a vehicle for that redemtion. I say this from personal experience as a person who went pretty far astray as a youth under the influence of drugs and bad cultural influences and bad company. I didn’t go as batshit crazy as Susan Atkinson or David Berkowitz, but who’s to say I couldn’t have under different circumstances. I’ve known several men who had profound spiritual transformations after hitting absolute rock bottom on the hard floor of a prison cell. I hit a brick wall pretty hard myself and remember making a conscious decision to change the course of my life. I understand not wanting to be taken in by criminals and liars with nothing to lose, but Berkowitz’s essay strikes me as sincere and I like to at least entertain the possibility that he and Atkins were really able to turn their lives around.
 
Lord Lucan said:
I'll be honest, I was doing stuff as this was playing in the background, so I can't answer your question. I'll have to re-watch it again and pay greater attention.
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I found this on wikipedia:

"While in jail, Atkins befriended two middle-aged career criminals, Virginia Graham and Veronica "Ronnie" Howard, to whom she confessed her participation in the Tate/LaBianca murders (for example, telling the women that she had stabbed Tate and tasted Tate's blood). They subsequently reported her statements to the authorities. This, combined with information from other sources, led to the arrests of Atkins and others involved in the Tate/LaBianca murders (Van Houten, Krenwinkel, Kasabian, and Watson)"

"Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard later received the bulk of the $25,000 award offered by Roman Polanski for solving the murder case. Their testimony was corroborated by extensive forensic evidence, the testimony of Linda Kasabian, and the grand jury testimony of Atkins herself."

In those days, that was quite a bit of money. And the two women were really brave to turn Atkins in. :)
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
I found this on wikipedia:

"While in jail, Atkins befriended two middle-aged career criminals, Virginia Graham and Veronica "Ronnie" Howard, to whom she confessed her participation in the Tate/LaBianca murders (for example, telling the women that she had stabbed Tate and tasted Tate's blood). They subsequently reported her statements to the authorities. This, combined with information from other sources, led to the arrests of Atkins and others involved in the Tate/LaBianca murders (Van Houten, Krenwinkel, Kasabian, and Watson)"

"Virginia Graham and Ronnie Howard later received the bulk of the $25,000 award offered by Roman Polanski for solving the murder case. Their testimony was corroborated by extensive forensic evidence, the testimony of Linda Kasabian, and the grand jury testimony of Atkins herself."

In those days, that was quite a bit of money. And the two women were really brave to turn Atkins in. :)
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They were brave indeed. At the time nobody knew how extensive “The Family” was.
 
Don't know if this has been seen or posted before, but it's the first time I've come across it -
A business associate and protege of Jay Sebring never believed the Helter Skelter nonsense theory, having known Sebring personally, he says it was all about drugs, just what I always thought:

Manson Victim’s Friend Posits Alternative Motive: “I Never Bought Into the Race War Theory”​

Six months after the infamous Manson Family murders, Jim Markham — a hairstylist turned mogul whose clients included Paul Newman and Steve ?McQueen and was a protege to victim Jay Sebring — hosted a federal sting to uncover the cult leader’s motives.

Jim Markham remembers vividly the days following the grisly Manson murders of Roman Polanski’s pregnant wife, Sharon Tate, her former boyfriend and hairstylist Jay Sebring and three others at the director’s Benedict Canyon residence in August 1969. At the time, Markham was Sebring’s protege and business partner in a budding franchise of men’s hair salons that stretched from a star-packed outpost on the corner of L.A.’s Melrose and Fairfax to Miami. Sebring became the second person to die at the hands of the Manson Family members during an infamous killing spree that claimed seven lives, including coffee heiress Abigail Folger and her lover, Polish screenwriter Wojciech Frykowski.

Markham, then 25 and splitting his time between his hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and L.A., was the heir apparent to Sebring’s 400-plus clientele, which included Paul Newman, Frank Sinatra and Steve McQueen. Markham heard the news on the radio and got on the phone with Sebring International president John Madden. “Jay and I had talked many times … that I’d be his successor if anything ever happened to him,” Markham recalls. “I just took right over out of necessity.”

Though Markham is reluctant to denigrate the memory of Sebring, who was his mentor and after whom he named his son, he claims that the late hairdresser knew Manson and suggests that the murders were the result of a drug deal gone bad — an account that aligns with a once-popular explanation that fell out of favor as the Helter Skelter narrative became dominant. Back in 1969, Sebring was nicknamed The Candyman and was said to have used his salon to peddle drugs to the stars.

“I don’t want to get into the drugs, but I never bought into the race war theory. I believe Manson had gone up to the house” — Polanski was away shooting a movie — “and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana,” he says. “He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].” Markham adds, “I’ve lived with that for 50 years. I still believe that.”

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...ms-friend-posits-alternative-motive-1227729/#!
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
Don't know if this has been seen or posted before, but it's the first time I've come across it -
A business associate and protege of Jay Sebring never believed the Helter Skelter nonsense theory, having known Sebring personally, he says it was all about drugs, just what I always thought:

Manson Victim’s Friend Posits Alternative Motive: “I Never Bought Into the Race War Theory”​

Six months after the infamous Manson Family murders, Jim Markham — a hairstylist turned mogul whose clients included Paul Newman and Steve ?McQueen and was a protege to victim Jay Sebring — hosted a federal sting to uncover the cult leader’s motives.

Jim Markham remembers vividly the days following the grisly Manson murders of Roman Polanski’s pregnant wife, Sharon Tate, her former boyfriend and hairstylist Jay Sebring and three others at the director’s Benedict Canyon residence in August 1969. At the time, Markham was Sebring’s protege and business partner in a budding franchise of men’s hair salons that stretched from a star-packed outpost on the corner of L.A.’s Melrose and Fairfax to Miami. Sebring became the second person to die at the hands of the Manson Family members during an infamous killing spree that claimed seven lives, including coffee heiress Abigail Folger and her lover, Polish screenwriter Wojciech Frykowski.

Markham, then 25 and splitting his time between his hometown of Albuquerque, New Mexico, and L.A., was the heir apparent to Sebring’s 400-plus clientele, which included Paul Newman, Frank Sinatra and Steve McQueen. Markham heard the news on the radio and got on the phone with Sebring International president John Madden. “Jay and I had talked many times … that I’d be his successor if anything ever happened to him,” Markham recalls. “I just took right over out of necessity.”

Though Markham is reluctant to denigrate the memory of Sebring, who was his mentor and after whom he named his son, he claims that the late hairdresser knew Manson and suggests that the murders were the result of a drug deal gone bad — an account that aligns with a once-popular explanation that fell out of favor as the Helter Skelter narrative became dominant. Back in 1969, Sebring was nicknamed The Candyman and was said to have used his salon to peddle drugs to the stars.

“I don’t want to get into the drugs, but I never bought into the race war theory. I believe Manson had gone up to the house” — Polanski was away shooting a movie — “and Manson wanted to sell cocaine and marijuana,” he says. “He showed Jay and Wojciech the product. They were going to buy some of it, but the two of them beat him up at the gate. The next night, Manson sent the Family up [to kill them].” Markham adds, “I’ve lived with that for 50 years. I still believe that.”

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...ms-friend-posits-alternative-motive-1227729/#!
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Maybe it was actually Sebring that Manson went looking for when he visited Cielo (under the pretence of saying he was looking for Melcher) who according to Bugliosi, (and Watson) Manson knew didn't live there anymore?

Having said that I think Melcher was more involved with the family than we are told, especially by Bugliosi who I would trust as far as I could throw him- or his coffin anyway.
 
Floyd1 said:
Maybe it was actually Sebring that Manson went looking for when he visited Cielo (under the pretence of saying he was looking for Melcher) who according to Bugliosi, (and Watson) Manson knew didn't live there anymore?

Having said that I think Melcher was more involved with the family than we are told, especially by Bugliosi who I would trust as far as I could throw him- or his coffin anyway.
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Here is Melcher's trial testimony.
I was struck by the fact that Melcher knew Tex Watson - Watson had been to 10050 Cielo Drive about half a dozen times in 1968.
Tex Watson was friends with Al Jacobson, who was a recording scout for Melcher.
Seems like all these people moved in the same circles, and knew or were aware of each other.
They were constantly at one drug party or another, Sharon and Roman Polanski were at many of them. I believe Jim Markham, he was there and saw all the drugs that he now does not want to speak about.
Melcher also seemed to want to distance himself from the family, in his testimony.
I'm surprised Dennis Wilson got away from testifying at the trial.

http://cielodrive.com/terry-melcher-trial-testimony.php
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
Here is Melcher's trial testimony.
I was struck by the fact that Melcher knew Tex Watson - Watson had been to 10050 Cielo Drive about half a dozen times in 1968.
Tex Watson was friends with Al Jacobson, who was a recording scout for Melcher.
Seems like all these people moved in the same circles, and knew or were aware of each other.
They were constantly at one drug party or another, Sharon and Roman Polanski were at many of them. I believe Jim Markham, he was there and saw all the drugs that he now does not want to speak about.
Melcher also seemed to want to distance himself from the family, in his testimony.
I'm surprised Dennis Wilson got away from testifying at the trial.

http://cielodrive.com/terry-melcher-trial-testimony.php
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Good one.

Yes, I don't think Wilson needed to testify really though. He couldn't really tell them anything that they didn't already know I suppose.
 
Floyd1 said:
Yes, I don't think Wilson needed to testify really though. He couldn't really tell them anything that they didn't already know I suppose.
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True, but Wilson may have witnessed Manson shooting a man and stuffing his body down a well.

Beach Boys’ Dennis Wilson Claimed to Have Witnessed Unreported Charles Manson Murder​

The connection between the Beach Boys and Charles Manson has been heavily documented over the past four decades, but now founding member Mike Love is claiming that Dennis Wilson actually witnessed a Manson Family murder that was never reported.

In his new memoir, “Good Vibrations,” Love details the bizarre friendship that his cousin, Dennis, forged with Manson (pictured above in a photo from the California Department of Corrections) and his followers, even allowing them to live in his Los Angeles home, People reports.

https://news.yahoo.com/beach-boys-dennis-wilson-claimed-witnessed-unreported-charles-030621611.html

The more one looks at Manson, the more strange details emerge, it seems never-ending.
 
Ronnie Jersey said:
True, but Wilson may have witnessed Manson shooting a man and stuffing his body down a well.

Beach Boys’ Dennis Wilson Claimed to Have Witnessed Unreported Charles Manson Murder​

The connection between the Beach Boys and Charles Manson has been heavily documented over the past four decades, but now founding member Mike Love is claiming that Dennis Wilson actually witnessed a Manson Family murder that was never reported.

In his new memoir, “Good Vibrations,” Love details the bizarre friendship that his cousin, Dennis, forged with Manson (pictured above in a photo from the California Department of Corrections) and his followers, even allowing them to live in his Los Angeles home, People reports.

https://news.yahoo.com/beach-boys-dennis-wilson-claimed-witnessed-unreported-charles-030621611.html

The more one looks at Manson, the more strange details emerge, it seems never-ending.
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Yes, I had heard that Love said this.
 
As Angela Lansbury has passed away today, here's an interesting article on her daughter Deirdre's (Didi) connection with the Manson Family:

In early 1968, Charles Manson was living in Topanga Canyon near Los Angeles with several young women. He’d been released from prison nearly a year earlier (March 1967) and initially received approval from his parole officer to live in San Francisco. But by late ’67, Charlie wanted to be closer to Hollywood, in order to find success as a musician.

When he met Deirdre Shaw, aka ‘Didi’, he grew hopeful that her connections would help him find success.

Deirdre ‘Didi’ Shaw was born April of 1953 to famed actress Angela Lansbury and her second husband, Peter Shaw. Didi grew up in Malibu with two older brothers. The children were frequently left in the care of their father while their celebrated mother was traveling the world and by her mid-teens, Didi was dabbling in drugs. Her mother later lamented, “It started with cannabis but moved on to heroin. There were factions up in the hills above Malibu that were dedicated to deadly pursuits. It pains me to say it but, at one stage, Deidre was in with a crowd led by Charles Manson. She was one of many youngsters who knew him — and they were fascinated. He was an extraordinary character, charismatic in many ways, no question about it.” — Angela Lansbury quoted in “Angela Lansbury: How Drugs
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https://themansonfamily-mtts.medium.com/the-children-of-the-stars-b231f52ad59c
 
Lord Lucan said:
The property where Manson Family victim Gary Hinman was murdered is up for sale. It's looking a little different these days after being heavily renovated over the years, looking nothing like it's former self.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/964-Old-Topanga-Canyon-Rd-Topanga-CA-90290/20549588_zpid/
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Yes, definitely;
HinmanHouse.jpg
 
Just finished Tom O'Neills excellent book "Chaos" - a result of 25 years of research and reporting. It would take a mammoth post to summarise everything discussed but here's the tl/dr version (all with documented evidence).

He can't find a unifying theory which ties together all of the evidence he unearthed but he proves that:

1. The official version of events didn't happen as we are led to believe.
2. Helter Skelter was not the motive.
3. Manson was under observation by or an informant for a Governmental organisation and was kept out of jail even when he should have been locked up for numerous parole violations.
4. Jolly West ran an MKUltra project in Haight requiring unwitting subjects for hypnosis, brainwashing and LSD experiments. He was furnished these subjects by Dr. David Smith, who ran a free medical clinic in the area. It was Dr. Smith who sent Manson to live in Haight before setting up shop there. Manson and Smith were friends.
5. Manson was friends with an undercover CIA agent and the Spahn Ranch was under observation before and during the murders.

There is loads more. It's a great read.
 
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