Eerie East London

[Sid]

Burin?

maximus otter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burin_(lithic_flake)
A Metal Engraving. or Wood Carving or Stone Age Hand Tool.

 

[Bad Bungle]

I think this helps to clarify how the isle of dogs might have got it's name. . .
https://www.theundergroundmap.com/wp/isle-of-dogs/
Was known as Stepney Marsh.
'The chapel,' later a farmhouse was the only building.
'Isle of Dogs (Dogges) Farm' (originally known as 'Pomfret Manor') shown on a map of 1683.
And the word Dogger, turns out to mean a two masted Dutch fishing vessel - might be a connection there to?

Dog (n) : "Its origin remains one of the great mysteries of English etymology". At some point in the 16th century, the word 'dog' replaced the Saxon/old English 'hound' (hund) but no-one (ie Stephen Fry) seems to know where it came from. Dogge, as in Dogger Bank (remarkably unhelpful directions on Google map) was from the Dutch barges as mentioned. I do remember reading about an area of London near the Jewish Quarter where all the dead dogs were collected and dumped in a trench outside of the London Wall - Houndsditch

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

Jack The Ripper Territory no less!

That's exactly what he meant, scary.

 

[catseye]

Dog (n) : "Its origin remains one of the great mysteries of English etymology". At some point in the 16th century, the word 'dog' replaced the Saxon/old English 'hound' (hund) but no-one (ie Stephen Fry) seems to know where it came from. Dogge, as in Dogger Bank (remarkably unhelpful directions on Google map) was from the Dutch barges as mentioned. I do remember reading about an area of London near the Jewish Quarter where all the dead dogs were collected and dumped in a trench outside of the London Wall - Houndsditch

This seems odd behaviour. Why would anyone (or people) collect and dump just the dead dogs? What about the cats, and pigs and other animals which died in the streets? Was there something particular or special about the corpses of dogs, that caused them to be picked up separately and dumped together? Or is there a kind of reverse etymology going on here, and Houndsditch was just where there were a lot of dogs about, snuffling around and eating all the bones and offal that got dumped in the ditch?

Not wanting to pick holes in your story @Bad Bungle, and there may well have been a very good reason for dead dogs to all have been dumped in one place, but I'm just curious.

 

[Bad Bungle]

This seems odd behaviour. Why would anyone (or people) collect and dump just the dead dogs? What about the cats, and pigs and other animals which died in the streets? Was there something particular or special about the corpses of dogs, that caused them to be picked up separately and dumped together? Or is there a kind of reverse etymology going on here, and Houndsditch was just where there were a lot of dogs about, snuffling around and eating all the bones and offal that got dumped in the ditch?

Not wanting to pick holes in your story @Bad Bungle, and there may well have been a very good reason for dead dogs to all have been dumped in one place, but I'm just curious.

I think you're right, the ditch outside the Wall was probably filled with dumped rubbish and that was where stray dogs (hounds) congregated. The original article I read (long time ago) concentrated more on the fact that the less salubrious parts of London (eg near a ditch of dead dogs) was where Jews were allowed to settle and run businesses.

 

[Sid]

Within these web pages (if you scroll down a good way), it shows maps which depict the Isle of Dogs as being a tiny part of the island peninsula in the South West corner, actually called the 'isle of dogs.'
Absolutely crammed full of info.
https://islandhistory.wordpress.com/
There does also mention somewhere, that it had a natural channel in which fishing boats were repaired.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

Within these web pages (if you scroll down a good way), it shows maps which depict the Isle of Dogs as being a tiny part of the island peninsula in the South West corner, actually called the 'isle of dogs.'
Absolutely crammed full of info.
https://islandhistory.wordpress.com/

Wow - love all the old photos!

 

[Victory]

@Sid

No concensus of why it is called The Isle of Dogs.

I was actually there today...should that be in "Minor coincidences" lol?

The best article on it's history I have read is this:

https://islandhistory.wordpress.com...f-dogs-is-not-named-after-royal-hunting-dogs/

I go by the best guess that author has, and think it is because dead dogs washed up on the sandbank.

@Ronnie Jersey

If you ever visit, you simply must go on a tour of the East End (Whitechapel is in the East End).

Try and book Rachel Kolsky as your guide, she's awesome.

I took this today...it's the flats at Dundee Wharf on the site of the old Limekiln Dockyard. (About 35 minutes' walk from Whitechapel.)

I took the photo, (am not in it) am facing East, so the Isle begins where the tall residential buildings are, that is the North West corner of the Isle near Westferry Circus.

I am standing in the next neighbourhood of Limehouse, and the odd structure as the main subject of the photo are balconies on the Thames walkway used by the residents of Dundee Wharf.

 

[PeteByrdie]

@Sid
I took this today...it's the flats at Dundee Wharf on the site of the old Limekiln Dockyard. (About 35 minutes' walk from Whitechapel.)

I took the photo, (am not in it) am facing East, so the Isle begins where the tall residential buildings are, that is the North West corner of the Isle near Westferry Circus.

I am standing in the next neighbourhood of Limehouse, and the odd structure as the main subject of the photo are balconies on the Thames walkway used by the residents of Dundee Wharf.

I was in the area on Friday afternoon. We had a couple of pints in The Grapes, a tiny, ancient pub once frequented by Charles Dickens. It's currently owned by Sir Ian McKellen, and Gandalf's staff is mounted behind the bar. A very friendly pub.

After that we walked to The Prospect of Whitby, another ancient tavern on the waterfront that sounds as though it was the model for every fictional pub of cutthroat pirates and thieves offered by the fantasies of fiction writers. It's the oldest riverside tavern, we're led to believe. A noose dangling from a gibbet overhanging the Thames sets the tone, and commemorates the hanging of pirates there. Its reputation once gave it the name The Devil's Tavern. There are information boards dotted around that talk of the history of the place.

It's much improved since then. The staff were very friendly. Our food was late, but when they realised we'd been waiting a while the house bought us a round. The food was worth the wait.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

@Sid

No concensus of why it is called The Isle of Dogs.

I was actually there today...should that be in "Minor coincidences" lol?

The best article on it's history I have read is this:

https://islandhistory.wordpress.com...f-dogs-is-not-named-after-royal-hunting-dogs/

I go by the best guess that author has, and think it is because dead dogs washed up on the sandbank.

@Ronnie Jersey

If you ever visit, you simply must go on a tour of the East End (Whitechapel is in the East End).

Try and book Rachel Kolsky as your guide, she's awesome.

I took this today...it's the flats at Dundee Wharf on the site of the old Limekiln Dockyard. (About 35 minutes' walk from Whitechapel.)

I took the photo, (am not in it) am facing East, so the Isle begins where the tall residential buildings are, that is the North West corner of the Isle near Westferry Circus.

I am standing in the next neighbourhood of Limehouse, and the odd structure as the main subject of the photo are balconies on the Thames walkway used by the residents of Dundee Wharf.

View attachment 57499

I have a feeling that if we had stayed in England, I would have been involved in the 'Jack The Ripper Tours', right up my alley!

 

[Victory]

I was in the area on Friday afternoon. We had a couple of pints in The Grapes, a tiny, ancient pub once frequented by Charles Dickens. It's currently owned by Sir Ian McKellen, and Gandalf's staff is mounted behind the bar. A very friendly pub.

After that we walked to The Prospect of Whitby,

That's another coincidence because...

Just after I took this photo, I walked back to Narrow Street, and saw a group of men ask someone for directions.
The person they asked looked confused.

So I asked if I could be of help.
The men pointed East, and asked how far Wapping was.
I replied that they were walking the wrong way, and should walk 15 minutes West, as Wapping is the next neighbourhood to the West.
They asked if it had nice riverside pubs and I mentioned the Prospect Of Whitby.
They said they were on a pub crawl of riverside pubs, having just left The Grapes.

I have drunk at The Grapes, The Prospect of Whitby and several pubs in Wapping.

Dickens drank at most of the pubs in London!

 

[Tempest63]

Dickens drank at most of the pubs in London!

I could see me and Dickens being good buddies.

 

[Tempest63]

Jack The Ripper Territory no less!

One of my maternal great grandfathers was a publican in Whitechapel/Spitalfields before during and after the Ripper murders. My Nan once told us he was in the downstairs flat under Mary Kelly’s on the night she was killed and made a quick getaway when the hoo hah started. Looking at the photos available on the net it doesn’t look like there would be a downstairs flat, there is no airy for instance, so this may be the equivalent of a family urban legend, maybe a scary tale he told his children when they were little.

 

[maximus otter]

…right up my alley!

Le mot juste. Probably an expression he used frequently.

maximus otter

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

One of my maternal great grandfathers was a publican in Whitechapel/Spitalfields before during and after the Ripper murders. My Nan once told us he was in the downstairs flat under Mary Kelly’s on the night she was killed and made a quick getaway when the hoo hah started. Looking at the photos available on the net it doesn’t look like there would be a downstairs flat, there is no airy for instance, so this may be the equivalent of a family urban legend, maybe a scary tale he told his children when they were little.

That's so interesting though - supposedly only a woman upstairs heard a woman scream 'Murder!', but that was all when Mary Kelly was being murdered?
Perhaps your relative meant he was in the room next door to Kelly?

 

[Tempest63]

That's so interesting though - supposedly only a woman upstairs heard a woman scream 'Murder!', but that was all when Mary Kelly was being murdered?
Perhaps your relative meant he was in the room next door to Kelly?

My Nan said he was staying in the flat downstairs, but as I wrote in the original post, I couldn’t find any evidence from photos that there was a downstairs. From what big Sis tells me there is no doubt he was a publican, living and working in the area at the time, and as such he would have been caught up in feelings and emotions that would have been running high at the time. I believe he would have passed this on to his children and, like all good Dads, a certain amount of embellishment may have been added to his stories.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

My Nan said he was staying in the flat downstairs, but as I wrote in the original post, I couldn’t find any evidence from photos that there was a downstairs. From what big Sis tells me there is no doubt he was a publican, living and working in the area at the time, and as such he would have been caught up in feelings and emotions that would have been running high at the time. I believe he would have passed this on to his children and, like all good Dads, a certain amount of embellishment may have been added to his stories.

In any case, I've always wondered about that Mary Kelly murder - supposedly the walls were very thin, and nothing was heard except for that one woman upstairs hearing the word 'Murder'. No kicking or shrieking? Strange, although perhaps there were some heavy drinkers in the building, did police ever check that out?

 

[Tunn11]

I posted ages ago about what may have been an old urban legend about Jack. If of interest to anyone here is the link.

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/old-urban-legends.66197/