Jack The Ripper (Compendium Thread)

What do you think is the most likely ?

  • The Ripper was a Freemason?

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • The Ripper had medical knowledge?

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • It was Maybrick?

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • The Ripper was 'of the same class' as his victims?

    Votes: 7 17.9%
  • The Ripper was foreign?

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • It was Druitt?

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None of the suspects yet put forward?

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • It was a woman?

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • Another?

    Votes: 9 23.1%

  • Total voters
    39

Yithian

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The only murder post Kelly (IMO) that showed the same MO as the Ripper was Alice McKenzie, but I’m not sure I can believe that Jack would have waited a full 8 months after the butchery of millers court to kill again.
I agree, especially not when the intensity/ferocity of the attacks seemed to be increasing.
Unless we can think of some plausible psychological reason why Kelly's murder might have sated the bloodlust.

Thanks for the pictures. I've visited several but not all of the sites and it's always interesting to see more.

p.s. Edited your post to correct the alignment on one of the photos--hope I didn't bugger it up.
 

Dick Turpin

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I agree, especially not when the intensity/ferocity of the attacks seemed to be increasing.
Unless we can think of some plausible psychological reason why Kelly's murder might have sated the bloodlust.

Thanks for the pictures. I've visited several but not all of the sites and it's always interesting to see more.

p.s. Edited your post to correct the alignment on one of the photos--hope I didn't bugger it up.
Well seeing as I’m on top of that part of the east end yith, just let me know if you want any further pics taken of other ripper related sights.

I’d be more than happy.
 

Victory

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Thanks for posting Dick.
A very atmospheric part of the world...I am not nearly as well read on the case as you and many other Forum members are...though I have a few books on the subject waiting for me to get into now that the football season has only a few games left.

Most people know this, but I was thinking something just now.
The Spitalfields area has a connection to the Flemish and Huguenot weavers and the leather trade...at one time it was known as the Tentergrounds....so too some streets just to the East of Commercial Street, (a street which I class as the border between Spitalfields and Whitechapel)...Fournier Street, Fashion Street and Wentworth Street.
I wondered if there was a possible connection here - the Leather Apron, and the use of knives in tanning and leatherworking, the (presumed) intimate knowledge of local streets that the murderer/murderers had etc?
But the Flemish weaving community had largely dispersed a good 50 years before Jack, and the Tentergrounds were redeveloped.
So that puts paid to my theory.

There was though a growing rag trade in the area at the time of Jack.....and tailors have access to knives and scissors and use them on a daily basis....
 

Dick Turpin

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Thanks for posting Dick.
A very atmospheric part of the world...I am not nearly as well read on the case as you and many other Forum members are...though I have a few books on the subject waiting for me to get into now that the football season has only a few games left.

Most people know this, but I was thinking something just now.
The Spitalfields area has a connection to the Flemish and Huguenot weavers and the leather trade...at one time it was known as the Tentergrounds....so too some streets just to the East of Commercial Street, (a street which I class as the border between Spitalfields and Whitechapel)...Fournier Street, Fashion Street and Wentworth Street.
I wondered if there was a possible connection here - the Leather Apron, and the use of knives in tanning and leatherworking, the (presumed) intimate knowledge of local streets that the murderer/murderers had etc?
But the Flemish weaving community had largely dispersed a good 50 years before Jack, and the Tentergrounds were redeveloped.
So that puts paid to my theory.

There was though a growing rag trade in the area at the time of Jack.....and tailors have access to knives and scissors and use them on a daily basis....

Hi Vic

There is also a Tenter street, which lies between Leman street and Prescott street, so only a stone’s throw from Tenterground really, and I assume the street was named after the practice of hanging the leather sheets out to dry, as in the case of Tenterground.

I was once told, although how true this is I’m not sure, that the word “ Tenterhooks” came into the English Language from this practice.

An old rhyme form the rippers day goes something like this :

I’m not a Butcher, I’m not a Yid
Nor yet foreign skipper
just your own light hearted friend
Yours truly Jack the Ripper.
 

Frideswide

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I was once told, although how true this is I’m not sure, that the word “ Tenterhooks” came into the English Language from this practice.
Certainly I have excavated and classified as "tenterhooks" nails/tacks from an English mediaeval monastic setting :)
 

Victory

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Hi Vic

There is also a Tenter street, which lies between Leman street and Prescott street, so only a stone’s throw from Tenterground really, and I assume the street was named after the practice of hanging the leather sheets out to dry, as in the case of Tenterground.

I was once told, although how true this is I’m not sure, that the word “ Tenterhooks” came into the English Language from this practice.
Thanks, I had forgotten there was a Tenter Street (technically divided into North, South, East and West) , though I know the small area where it is, near the bus garage.

I have also been told that is the origin of the phrase "On Tenterhooks" ...meaning "Tense", usually used in conjunction with the experience of waiting for news or for the result of a test.
I think the phrase is seldom, if ever, used outside the UK?

Am not sure if I am alone in this, but I feel quite odd around Leman Street and Alie Street.
It is a sort of twilight zone, neither one thing nor the other.
Not quite having the feel of the City, neither does it feel like the East End.
Technically it is in the Borough of Tower Hamlets.

I wonder if that feeling is linked to the area around the Tower of London not being part of the City historically, but part of the Liberty of the Tower of London and also a "Papal Peculiar?"
The City boundary was moved Eastwards from the Minories to Mansell Street in 1994, Leman Street still lies to the East of Mansell Street.
 
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EnolaGaia

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... I have also been told that is the origin of the phrase "On Tenterhooks" ...meaning "Tense", usually used in conjunction with the experience of waiting for news or for the result of a test.
I think the phrase is seldom, if ever, used outside the UK? ...
The phrase wasn't all that rare in American speech decades ago, but its use has faded considerably. The 'tenter' context had long been lost, and for some reason it was common for Americans to pronounce it as "tenderhooks."
 

Cochise

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I agree, especially not when the intensity/ferocity of the attacks seemed to be increasing.
Unless we can think of some plausible psychological reason why Kelly's murder might have sated the bloodlust.

Thanks for the pictures. I've visited several but not all of the sites and it's always interesting to see more.

p.s. Edited your post to correct the alignment on one of the photos--hope I didn't bugger it up.
I have speculated that the Kelly murder was different because she had a room, which he may not have been expecting. And indeed the reaction afterwards may have put him off for a while, but not permanently. Which, if you include McKenzie, actually boosts the case for Kosminiski if I have my sequence of events correctly. Not that I think it is Kosminski.
 

Yithian

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I have speculated that the Kelly murder was different because she had a room, which he may not have been expecting. And indeed the reaction afterwards may have put him off for a while, but not permanently. Which, if you include McKenzie, actually boosts the case for Kosminiski if I have my sequence of events correctly. Not that I think it is Kosminski.
Agreed the room could have been a factor. It afforded him the leisure and opportunity to mutilate far more extensively that with his prior victims.

The other difference was her age--and appearance-- ("quite pretty" by some accounts). Could that have further fuelled a misogynistic rage?
 

Cochise

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Agreed the room could have been a factor. It afforded him the leisure and opportunity to mutilate far more extensively that with his prior victims.

The other difference was her age--and appearance-- ("quite pretty" by some accounts). Could that have further fuelled a misogynistic rage?
He mutilated her face beyond recognition (which still provides fuel for some of the more outlandish theories). It may have been that the luck in finding a relatively pretty (and probably drunk) woman with her own room who invited him in hit all his numbers at once, as it were.
 

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Something about the JTR case that has frustrated me is the lack of use of modern computer techniques in visualisation of the crime area.

We have highly accurate Victorian street maps, and photographs of many of the areas frequented by Saucy Jack. We have numerous accounts of suspects seen, victims' travels, police officers' beats and so on, yet no-one seems to have had the idea of putting them all together into a user-friendly animation.

Imagine being able to buy a DVD that contained a 2D map (with 3D imaging where available) of the Whitechapel area. Now consider the possibilities of being able to "set the clockwork in motion" and view the path walked by Victim X, her sighting by Witness Y and the discovery of her body by Constable Z in real time ( or 5x or 10x real time, user-selectable). Add street lighting and the effect of the bullseye lamps carried by constables. Want fog? Press Button F.

Could the various sightings of Suspect A have all been the same man? How fast would he have had to have walked to have been at Mitre Square at the material time, if he'd also been seen 15 minutes earlier in Dorset Street? Is it even possible to have walked from Flower and Dean Street to Miller's Court in such and such a time?

I'd pay my £29.99 for that capability.

maximus otter
 
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OrsonSwells

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I wonder if the sheer severity of the Kelly attack may have been the very thing that satiated the killer for a while.

That and the response to it could possibly have encouraged him to keep a low profile for a while.

A killer like BTK, for instance, went quiet for years between attacks, didn't he? So, I don't suppose it is impossible.
 

Dick Turpin

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Thanks, I had forgotten there was a Tenter Street (technically divided into North, South, East and West) , though I know the small area where it is, near the bus garage.

I have also been told that is the origin of the phrase "On Tenterhooks" ...meaning "Tense", usually used in conjunction with the experience of waiting for news or for the result of a test.
I think the phrase is seldom, if ever, used outside the UK?

Am not sure if I am alone in this, but I feel quite odd around Leman Street and Alie Street.
It is a sort of twilight zone, neither one thing nor the other.
Not quite having the feel of the City, neither does it feel like the East End.
Technically it is in the Borough of Tower Hamlets.

I wonder if that feeling is linked to the area around the Tower of London not being part of the City historically, but part of the Liberty of the Tower of London and also a "Papal Peculiar?"
The City boundary was moved Eastwards from the Minories to Mansell Street in 1994, Leman Street still lies to the East of Mansell Street.
I know what you mean about Leman street Vic, it’s just as a short walk away from the city “proper” as Spitlafields is, but has no way near the vibrancy, although to be honest, I find that about the whole of Aldgate generally.

And the only good thing about Alie street is the Halal restaurant, not sure if you have ever been into the Halal, but it’s old school - flock wallpaper, lino on the floor and the mincemeat biryani is to die for.
 

Tempest63

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And the only good thing about Alie street is the Halal restaurant, not sure if you have ever been into the Halal, but it’s old school - flock wallpaper, lino on the floor and the mincemeat biryani is to die for.
I remember that restaurant from working a night shift on Alie Street. They used to claim they were the oldest Indian restaurant in the East End. They had it painted on the walls. Quite a good restaurant in its day.

Probably lost some trade to Tayyabs which is mega popular these days but is never as good as the very first Lahore in Curtain Street.
 

Victory

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In Alan Moore's From Hell, Gull and Netley take a tour of the occult sites of London.

A few years ago this guy decided to do that tour himself, by bus and on foot.

http://www.thebohemianblog.com/2015/10/an-occult-psychogeography-of-hawksmoors-london-churches.html
Thanks, will be reading that blog, having read From Hell some years ago, then seen the film.

The Hawksmoor Pentagram had troubled me a little in the past, in that he designed six London churches, one in Greenwich.
That is omitted from the Pentagram, but Greenwich was not considered London at the time.
John Rocque's 1746 map of London shows a large gap between the edge of the urban area and what would now be Greenwich, in fact it does not include the area of Greenwich.
And it would seem Greenwich was classed as being in Kent until 1889, when the "County of London" was created.
 
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It's worth underlining - to save any confusion - that if the pentagram in the above linked blog is the 'earthbound constellation' employed as a device by Alan Moore in From Hell, then - apart from in I think one single instance - it's not the Hawksmoor churches that create the ultimate points of the pentagram; and clearly - if, when trying to make a pattern, you take the five points you are focussing on and employ them as points along an alignment, rather than points to which others align, then you’ve made the project very much easier for yourself.

Moore uses artistic license, imagination, and not a little bit of the sharpshooter's fallacy to create a pentagram with St Paul's Cathedral at its exact centre - and, In my experience, artistic license, imagination, and not a little bit of the sharpshooter's fallacy lie at the heart of about every supposed covert urban geographical geometric pattern I've ever seen.

Don't get me wrong, I love this stuff, and can spend hours over a map myself - but, I suspect that like Tarot cards, the I Ching and tea leaves, its most profitable employment is in making you meditate upon the thing that you appear to be seeing, rather than believing in its literal truth.

None of the above is in any way a criticism, by the way; Moore is an artist, and From Hell, a work of imagination (and in my opinion, and despite a rather hackneyed central premise, a very good one). Futhermore, to be fair to Moore, I don’t recall his pentagram having the subject of Hawksmoor as its focus, rather than as a constituent part in an overall pattern - but there’s no doubt that Hawksmoor occultists do see a pattern in the churches themselves, and that - dare I say it - some people who see arcane underlying forms, maybe, in some instances, have a tendency to conflation.

I think you can get a pretty squat and distorted pentagram (with a relatively small south-west point) out of joining the five Hawksmoor churches (that’s excluding St Alfege at Greenwich). But, and at a very rough estimate, if you then bisect the central pentagon, I reckon you're somewhere near The Hoop and Grapes on Aldgate High Street (or maybe the William Hill – but a pub sounds more venerable than a betting shop) - and around at least a mile away from St Paul's.
 
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Dick Turpin

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John Rocque's 1746 map of London shows that whole Tenter St area as open. Marked as Tenter Grounds. Was used for suspending cloth for drying, during the manufacture/dying process.

This is utterly irrelevant to JTR. I just love old maps.

View attachment 17323


This is excellent newt, I’m also an old map fan. Interesting to see a map of spitalfields that isn’t being sliced into two by Commercial street.

Although much knocked about by developers and Hitler’s bombs, much of the area is still intact.

I took this picture last week whilst walking through spitalfields. This particular building, on the corner of Artillery passage and Artillery lane, has the erection date of 1682, unsure as to what the spade emblem above the date would have meant though.

Pub sign perhaps..?


1558431699807.jpg
 
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...I took this picture last week whilst walking through spitalfields. This particular building, on the corner of Artillery passage and Artillery lane, has the erection date of 1682, unsure as to what the spade emblem above the date would have meant though.

Pub sign perhaps..?...
A quick google suggests that 1682 is the year that the are was sold by the previous owners of the land to builder/developers. Sources suggest that a bricklayer and carpenter might have been among these speculators - I wonder if it could be a trade/guild symbol.
 

Dick Turpin

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A quick google suggests that 1682 is the year that the are was sold by the previous owners of the land to builder/developers. Sources suggest that a bricklayer and carpenter might have been among these speculators - I wonder if it could be a trade/guild symbol.
A closer / larger version shows faded lettering.

I can make out an O then A in the top part and then U then M lower down.

It’s a long shot, but could the top word spell Oak and the lower word Rum…?.....as in Oak aged Rum, and the name of this Rum shop, the Ace of Spades..?

Nah….you are right spookdaddy it’s a trade sign.


1558434914889.png
 
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A closer / larger version shows faded lettering.

I can make out an O then A in the top part and then U then M lower down.

It’s a long shot, but could the top word spell Oak and the lower word Rum…?.....as in Oak aged Rum, and the name of this Rum shop, the Ace of Spades..?...
A bit of digging has unearthed two old photographs of the location. The faded lettering looks like it's part of a run of six words (maybe seven), one on top of the other, but it's not possible to read what they are; likely old style shop advertising. The shop maybe did sell booze - in one picture you can see a girl having a pot filled at the entrance to the shop. However, what at first I thought was an advertisement for Whites Lager Beer, looks, on closer examination, to be a partial reading of ???whites (Gin)ger Beer. I suspect the shop is the kind of general store common to Victorian England.

Using the position of the window as a datum, I think the older shop canopy was situated further up, and actually obscured the arrow sign. (In the contemporary photo posted here by Dick Turpin the window is maybe 4/5 courses of brick above the top edge of the sign - in the older pictures, this is around where the top of the canopy sits.)

I'm now wondering if the upwards arrow is associated somehow with the area's use prior to 1682, that image having long been associated with archery originally (not surprisingly), and later ordnance in general, and the Board of Ordnance in particular. (Various online sources contain words to the effect: On 3rd January 1537 the area was designated as an artillery ground for the “Fraternyte or Guylde of Artyllary of longbowes, Crossbowes and handegonnes”. This from a local authority planning document.)

Obviously, the buildings are post 1682 - so possibly this is a later acknowledgement of prior use, or a claim of post 1682 ownership.

Photographs: here, and this one:

Artillery Lane 2.jpg







But, you know, things are never that simple.

After writing all that at 04.00 this morning – being unable to sleep and looking for distraction – I then stumbled across a great bit of trivia:

This very corner of Artillery Lane and Artillery Passage makes an appearance in the 1981 movie Omen III: The Final Conflict -Source.

Artillery_Lane.JPG

You can see from the still that the earlier and later window area was at that time completely bricked over – and a whole section of wall seems to have been rebuilt, rather than the window simply bricked in. This means the window has since been reinstated and may not be in precisely the same place as the original – so my scaling may be based on complete bobbins. (There’s another slightly later image here – you can just about make out the same discolouration in the differing brickwork.)

As part of a Conservation Area it’s highly likely that the buildings have been renovated in accordance with the original architecture – hence the reconstituted window. In all the images I’ve found the arrow sign is obscured, possibly under a darker paint. I also think it’s likely that if this was found under the later paint, and was salvageable (which is possible), it was likely to have been uncovered as part of the restoration.

As you can no doubt deduce – I really couldn’t get to bloody sleep last night.
 

Dick Turpin

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A bit of digging has unearthed two old photographs of the location. The faded lettering looks like it's part of a run of six words (maybe seven), one on top of the other, but it's not possible to read what they are; likely old style shop advertising. The shop maybe did sell booze - in one picture you can see a girl having a pot filled at the entrance to the shop. However, what at first I thought was an advertisement for Whites Lager Beer, looks, on closer examination, to be a partial reading of ???whites (Gin)ger Beer. I suspect the shop is the kind of general store common to Victorian England.

Using the position of the window as a datum, I think the older shop canopy was situated further up, and actually obscured the arrow sign. (In the contemporary photo posted here by Dick Turpin the window is maybe 4/5 courses of brick above the top edge of the sign - in the older pictures, this is around where the top of the canopy sits.)

I'm now wondering if the upwards arrow is associated somehow with the area's use prior to 1682, that image having long been associated with archery originally (not surprisingly), and later ordnance in general, and the Board of Ordnance in particular. (Various online sources contain words to the effect: On 3rd January 1537 the area was designated as an artillery ground for the “Fraternyte or Guylde of Artyllary of longbowes, Crossbowes and handegonnes”. This from a local authority planning document.)

Obviously, the buildings are post 1682 - so possibly this is a later acknowledgement of prior use, or a claim of post 1682 ownership.

Photographs: here, and this one:

View attachment 17554







But, you know, things are never that simple.

After writing all that at 04.00 this morning – being unable to sleep and looking for distraction – I then stumbled across a great bit of trivia:

This very corner of Artillery Lane and Artillery Passage makes an appearance in the 1981 movie Omen III: The Final Conflict -Source.

View attachment 17555

You can see from the still that the earlier and later window area was at that time completely bricked over – and a whole section of wall seems to have been rebuilt, rather than the window simply bricked in. This means the window has since been reinstated and may not be in precisely the same place as the original – so my scaling may be based on complete bobbins. (There’s another slightly later image here – you can just about make out the same discolouration in the differing brickwork.)

As part of a Conservation Area it’s highly likely that the buildings have been renovated in accordance with the original architecture – hence the reconstituted window. In all the images I’ve found the arrow sign is obscured, possibly under a darker paint. I also think it’s likely that if this was found under the later paint, and was salvageable (which is possible), it was likely to have been uncovered as part of the restoration.

As you can no doubt deduce – I really couldn’t get to bloody sleep last night.
Sterling work spook.
 

Newt

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This shows another picture of it, but so far I cant find a date for the photo.

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vol27/plate-54

figure0361-054-a.gif

And this site explains the spade shaped thing.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMFAXT_Old_Atillery_Ground_Mark_Artillery_Passage_London_UK

Quote from source

"On 13 February 1681/2 the Old Artillery Ground was granted in perpetuity to George Bradbury and Edward Noell for £5,700, with licence to build new houses on the same. It was described as the Old Artillery Ground or Old Artillery Garden in or near the parish of St. Botolph's, Bishopsgate, and on the west side of fields or places commonly called Spitalfields, containing five acres and one rood, now encompassed with a brick wall; the buildings are described much as in l681. A rent of 6s. 8d. was reserved. In subsequent deeds George Bradbury is described as of the Middle Temple, esquire, and Edward Noell as of the Inner Temple, gentleman. They were probably associated with Barbon in this grant, as the subsequent building leases were usually made by Bradbury and Noell together with Barbon and John Parsons.

At the time of the grant the Crown set up metal broad-arrow marks at various points along the boundary; several of these marks can still be seen at No. 43 Artillery Lane, No. 9 Artillery Passage, Nos. 9 and 14 Brushfield Street, as well as an incised mark, probably of later date, in George and Catherine Wheel Alley. The arrow at No. 9 Brushfield Street is marked 1682; the arrow opposite at No. 14 may also be original, but both these must have been placed in their present positions when Union (now Brushfield) Street was cut through in the late eighteenth century. In 1943 a mark still existed at No. 42 Brushfield Street, and in 1893 there was another dated 1682 at the corner of Artillery Lane and Sandys Row; both these have now disappeared."
 
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Looking at another of the photos on the above link, I think I can make out

DAILY
FROM THE

on the ghost sign.

I also wonder if the bottom word might be SHELL. If so, maybe they sold oysters - very popular in Victorian London.

Edit: I know that this is a tangent, and has nothing much to do with the Ripper - but, it's good fun.
 
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