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Anonymous
Guest
Aha, but for a plane to have lift both sides up the old Bonoulli idea just won't sit right, as one side has to be flat the other rounded. But thank you.
Magick: What's The Point?
- Thread starter Justin_Anstey
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A
Anonymous
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What keeps planes up
Air elementals get bad sunburn at high altitudes. For this reason, they seek shade under any structure they can find, especially aircraft wings. Having more air elementals under your wing than ontop of it causes a pressure differential, thus creating lift.
Simple really
M
Air elementals get bad sunburn at high altitudes. For this reason, they seek shade under any structure they can find, especially aircraft wings. Having more air elementals under your wing than ontop of it causes a pressure differential, thus creating lift.
Simple really
M
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FraterLibre
Guest
Flight, The Endless Mystery
Actually, Ithaqua is incorrect in assuming that the wing changes, given the cross-section of, say, an F-16. It's entire shape is a lifting body, the wings are minimal, and it can generate lift either rightside up or upside down.
Bernoulli's principle is enhanced, perhaps, in these radical designs, but it is upheld perfectly well and remains an important part of flying.
And it's not what's under one's wing that keeps one up. Airplanes are essentially sucked upward by a relative vacuum that forms OVER their wings.
But hey, none of this matters, as none of us are aircraft designers. Thank the gods for small favors, hm? LOL
Actually, Ithaqua is incorrect in assuming that the wing changes, given the cross-section of, say, an F-16. It's entire shape is a lifting body, the wings are minimal, and it can generate lift either rightside up or upside down.
Bernoulli's principle is enhanced, perhaps, in these radical designs, but it is upheld perfectly well and remains an important part of flying.
And it's not what's under one's wing that keeps one up. Airplanes are essentially sucked upward by a relative vacuum that forms OVER their wings.
But hey, none of this matters, as none of us are aircraft designers. Thank the gods for small favors, hm? LOL
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Anonymous
Guest
Try looking at
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/BernoulliEffect.html
or
http://www.mountwashington.org/discovery/arcade/bernoulli/
As any Physicist (which I used to be - I did think about being an aircraft design engineer- but a friend of mine tried it and hated everything but the wind tunnel experiments for precisely this reason the maths just didn't add up) can tell you there is no such thing as sucked anything to do with air pressure blows (literally and figuratively).
The shape of the underside of a lifting body or wing is just as important as the top. Which ever side has faster moving air has the lower air pressure and thus the the slower moving air has a greater pressure. So the curve atop the body causes lift beneath.
Modern Physics can only explain inverted flight interms of the thrust being vectored toward the ground constantly providing the plane with lift. Or in terms of lift inducing vortices that are unrelated to the conventional explanation.
http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~weltner/Flight/PHYSIC4.htm
Anyway my point which I hope has not been lost is that Physics (and indeed any science) is just as inclined to repeat
meaningless gobbledegook and techno-babble to demonstrate its point as any magick, and often is just as wrong.
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/BernoulliEffect.html
or
http://www.mountwashington.org/discovery/arcade/bernoulli/
As any Physicist (which I used to be - I did think about being an aircraft design engineer- but a friend of mine tried it and hated everything but the wind tunnel experiments for precisely this reason the maths just didn't add up) can tell you there is no such thing as sucked anything to do with air pressure blows (literally and figuratively).
The shape of the underside of a lifting body or wing is just as important as the top. Which ever side has faster moving air has the lower air pressure and thus the the slower moving air has a greater pressure. So the curve atop the body causes lift beneath.
Modern Physics can only explain inverted flight interms of the thrust being vectored toward the ground constantly providing the plane with lift. Or in terms of lift inducing vortices that are unrelated to the conventional explanation.
http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~weltner/Flight/PHYSIC4.htm
Anyway my point which I hope has not been lost is that Physics (and indeed any science) is just as inclined to repeat
meaningless gobbledegook and techno-babble to demonstrate its point as any magick, and often is just as wrong.
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FraterLibre
Guest
Justin - Great article. These folks are interpreting things as they discover the basics many others have found before. And the producer's comparison to artists is dead on, too.
The only silly bits are that they tend to believe they have affects on things at a distance. This is magical thinking and is an error. Magic is a method of changing things to one's will, but physics still apply. It's more about focusing one's efforts, and of programming one's mind to success as defined by one's own goals.
Ithaqua - We agree entirely that science is just as inclined as any other belief system to repeat unexamined nonsense as articles of faith. The reason is, human begins are doing it and human nature demands such blind spots of us, for some reason.
Probably a design flaw.
Also, we are both describing flight, and wings, and lifting bodies, but in different words. We agree on this, too.
Which brings up another problem science so often faces: Communication is often awkward even among the like-minded. How much more so, then, to tell the masses something clearly?
As an example consider how misunderstood is evolution's many concepts -- often even inadvertently.
The only silly bits are that they tend to believe they have affects on things at a distance. This is magical thinking and is an error. Magic is a method of changing things to one's will, but physics still apply. It's more about focusing one's efforts, and of programming one's mind to success as defined by one's own goals.
Ithaqua - We agree entirely that science is just as inclined as any other belief system to repeat unexamined nonsense as articles of faith. The reason is, human begins are doing it and human nature demands such blind spots of us, for some reason.
Probably a design flaw.
Also, we are both describing flight, and wings, and lifting bodies, but in different words. We agree on this, too.
Which brings up another problem science so often faces: Communication is often awkward even among the like-minded. How much more so, then, to tell the masses something clearly?
As an example consider how misunderstood is evolution's many concepts -- often even inadvertently.
Bullseye
Abominable Snowman
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Works for me
I work as a part time taxi driver at night, in this town its sometimes like the wildwest (a lot of drivers get robbed, some refuse to drive at night) and you need all the help you can get, I find that if I perform a little "something" before my shift I get a better night. It works for me. if i don't do it (like on a "soft" night) I very often get trouble.
I work as a part time taxi driver at night, in this town its sometimes like the wildwest (a lot of drivers get robbed, some refuse to drive at night) and you need all the help you can get, I find that if I perform a little "something" before my shift I get a better night. It works for me. if i don't do it (like on a "soft" night) I very often get trouble.
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FraterLibre
Guest
A Fortean Trait?
Miichael - If it works, keep doing it. That's the only practical test. Why or how it works is beyond us. Maybe you're putting yourself into a better frame of mind the easier to avoid trouble, or perhaps you do your little something because you've sensed things will be fine -- who can say?
We all do such rituals, and they do seem to work for most of us, most of the time, so where's the harm? Maybe it's a Fortean trait to trust such things without having a clue what's really going on.
Miichael - If it works, keep doing it. That's the only practical test. Why or how it works is beyond us. Maybe you're putting yourself into a better frame of mind the easier to avoid trouble, or perhaps you do your little something because you've sensed things will be fine -- who can say?
We all do such rituals, and they do seem to work for most of us, most of the time, so where's the harm? Maybe it's a Fortean trait to trust such things without having a clue what's really going on.
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Anonymous
Guest
Re: Works For Me
I don't doubt this in the slightest. However, I think what you're probably doing is making yourself more confident. Your also probably more alert to warnings and guidance from the unconscious. Anyone who's done a risky job knows that having the right 'don't mess with me' attitude can save your skin more times than you'd realise. I applaud your readiness to use unconventional means to deal with a real problem in a practical way, I just don't think it counts as Magick.
I would be concerned however, if you really thought that there was more to it..........
Sorry, but this is wrong, wrong, wrong. Surely its a Fortean trait not to trust anything where you haven't a clue what's going on. Its certainly a survival trait. Go along for the ride with your eyes open maybe, trust, I think not.
And that's precisely where the harm is in doing little rituals without having a clue what you're doing. If it sucks you into the false belief that Magick can be used to alter brute facts, you're going to end up more and more diverged from reality. People may well think I'm a trife obsessive and paranoid on this, but its scary how many people I've met who totally lost contact with reality through occultism.
Incidentally, I think that someone who attributed their safety in a dangerous job to the fact that angels protected them through the power of prayer would be making the same mistake. and open to the same dangers.
I don't doubt this in the slightest. However, I think what you're probably doing is making yourself more confident. Your also probably more alert to warnings and guidance from the unconscious. Anyone who's done a risky job knows that having the right 'don't mess with me' attitude can save your skin more times than you'd realise. I applaud your readiness to use unconventional means to deal with a real problem in a practical way, I just don't think it counts as Magick.
I would be concerned however, if you really thought that there was more to it..........
Sorry, but this is wrong, wrong, wrong. Surely its a Fortean trait not to trust anything where you haven't a clue what's going on. Its certainly a survival trait. Go along for the ride with your eyes open maybe, trust, I think not.
And that's precisely where the harm is in doing little rituals without having a clue what you're doing. If it sucks you into the false belief that Magick can be used to alter brute facts, you're going to end up more and more diverged from reality. People may well think I'm a trife obsessive and paranoid on this, but its scary how many people I've met who totally lost contact with reality through occultism.
Incidentally, I think that someone who attributed their safety in a dangerous job to the fact that angels protected them through the power of prayer would be making the same mistake. and open to the same dangers.
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FraterLibre
Guest
State of Poise
Your panic that we'd lose all sense of proportion and be sucked into the mire of magical thinking may be justified, but I doubt it. And those wee rituals that make things go better, for what ever reason, are indeed exactly magick.
Magick as I'm using it here is defined as changing things by application of will and effort. It does not violate physics in the slightest; anyone who believes in the literal reality of the supernatural is living in a cartoon world.
You're quite right, if someone in a dangerous job thought they were safe solely because an angel protects them, they'd be deluded -- but what if they nevertheless, despite all odds, remained safe?
Attribute the result to anything you like, the fact is, we don't have a clue.
Forteans live by neither doubt nor gullible acceptance, but rather in a state of poise, where both extremes amuse and delight them as they watch the miracle of the damned.
Yes, I too have met those utterly lost to deluded beliefs, via the occult, religion, and other things. In no case did I ever think for even a moment that it was the fault of the philosophy, the religion, or the odd notions they entertained. The fault lies not in the rituals, not in the pursuits, but in themselves. It was they who proved flawed when they came up against this, that, or the other belief system.
Truth is, had it not been one thing, it would likely have been another, with these folks.
As often is the case, I suspect we mostly agree, but that we're coming at things from opposite ends of the pitch.
To futher the discussion, then, I must ask what would count as Magick, in your lexicon? Can you offer an example of what you'd call Magick?
For me it is any act of will that changes things, from scratching an itch to conceiving of a Gothic cathedral and seeing it built.
Your panic that we'd lose all sense of proportion and be sucked into the mire of magical thinking may be justified, but I doubt it. And those wee rituals that make things go better, for what ever reason, are indeed exactly magick.
Magick as I'm using it here is defined as changing things by application of will and effort. It does not violate physics in the slightest; anyone who believes in the literal reality of the supernatural is living in a cartoon world.
You're quite right, if someone in a dangerous job thought they were safe solely because an angel protects them, they'd be deluded -- but what if they nevertheless, despite all odds, remained safe?
Attribute the result to anything you like, the fact is, we don't have a clue.
Forteans live by neither doubt nor gullible acceptance, but rather in a state of poise, where both extremes amuse and delight them as they watch the miracle of the damned.
Yes, I too have met those utterly lost to deluded beliefs, via the occult, religion, and other things. In no case did I ever think for even a moment that it was the fault of the philosophy, the religion, or the odd notions they entertained. The fault lies not in the rituals, not in the pursuits, but in themselves. It was they who proved flawed when they came up against this, that, or the other belief system.
Truth is, had it not been one thing, it would likely have been another, with these folks.
As often is the case, I suspect we mostly agree, but that we're coming at things from opposite ends of the pitch.
To futher the discussion, then, I must ask what would count as Magick, in your lexicon? Can you offer an example of what you'd call Magick?
For me it is any act of will that changes things, from scratching an itch to conceiving of a Gothic cathedral and seeing it built.
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Anonymous
Guest
A reasonable request, as this thread has tended to use 'Magick' in a Humpty-Dumpty way. To me, Magick would be the ability to effect changes on the physical world by intentional act of will alone. (i.e. without technological intervention) I accept that this can become problematic when applied to the body, e.g. combatting tumours by visualisation, developing a less victim like set of postures by praying, but I think its fairly straightforward when it comes to the external world.
Thus neither scratching an itch nor building a cathedral are Magickal acts. Cloudbusting with orgone rays probably would be a magickal act, because its highly unliklely the technology actually works. Poltergeist phenomena, if they are caused by humans, would not be magickal, as they lack conscious intent. Calling up a water monster by use of ritual (as allegedly done by Crowley & Shiels) would be magickal. Causing cancer in someone unaware of the curse by use of classical cursing methods would be Magickal. Contacting disembodied presences; spirits, demons, gods, dead people, dolphins is not magickal, as we understand the mechanisms involved.
And of course controlled telepathy, psychokinesis, remote viewing, bilocation, etc would all be magickal.
Which is what worries me, 'cos just like the NSPCC ads, people don't bounce back.
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FraterLibre
Guest
A Blur of Words Toward Defining Magick
Tracing cause and effect is the snag, and finding a medium via which change was affected by will alone the key problem. Those who believe they can do these things I've found to be generally flakes. Often nice folks, but deluded.
This is not to say there may not be a way to accomplish this sort of magick. However, if some sort of mind-beam were found, then would it be magickal at all? Would we not revert back to the mundane, then?
My own definition of magic includes physics, rather than excluding it, which is why I say magick is not supernatural -- nothing is. It may appear to be, but if we'd understand more, then we'd see it's not. Radio signals are a nice example, as we could not exploit them until we understood them, but we were enticed into investigating them thanks to the occasional random event.
As to why I include scratching an itch and building a great cathedral as acts of magick, it has to do with focusing the will. Keeping in mind quantum mechanics and the barely-understood interaction of observer and observed, we are in a very real sense creating something from nothing even if we must move a muscle to do so -- because even the muscle is but a dance of energy interacting with another. So the will involved is the key spark, and the physical manifestation follows only if circumstances allow it, or if enough determination is brought to bear.
It's a difficult topic to broach and discuss, sorry for being so vague. Then again, if it were at all clear we'd have nothing to discuss, I suppose. We'd long since have decided and moved on.
Tracing cause and effect is the snag, and finding a medium via which change was affected by will alone the key problem. Those who believe they can do these things I've found to be generally flakes. Often nice folks, but deluded.
This is not to say there may not be a way to accomplish this sort of magick. However, if some sort of mind-beam were found, then would it be magickal at all? Would we not revert back to the mundane, then?
My own definition of magic includes physics, rather than excluding it, which is why I say magick is not supernatural -- nothing is. It may appear to be, but if we'd understand more, then we'd see it's not. Radio signals are a nice example, as we could not exploit them until we understood them, but we were enticed into investigating them thanks to the occasional random event.
As to why I include scratching an itch and building a great cathedral as acts of magick, it has to do with focusing the will. Keeping in mind quantum mechanics and the barely-understood interaction of observer and observed, we are in a very real sense creating something from nothing even if we must move a muscle to do so -- because even the muscle is but a dance of energy interacting with another. So the will involved is the key spark, and the physical manifestation follows only if circumstances allow it, or if enough determination is brought to bear.
It's a difficult topic to broach and discuss, sorry for being so vague. Then again, if it were at all clear we'd have nothing to discuss, I suppose. We'd long since have decided and moved on.
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Anonymous
Guest
could crossing your fingers be classed as magic?
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FraterLibre
Guest
Ritual
It's magical thnking, certainly. Crossing the fingers is a ritual like making the sign of the cross, etc. One hopes thereby to invoke good luck, or some god's grace, etc.
Not magick per se, but superstitious at least.
It's magical thnking, certainly. Crossing the fingers is a ritual like making the sign of the cross, etc. One hopes thereby to invoke good luck, or some god's grace, etc.
Not magick per se, but superstitious at least.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2003
- Messages
- 45
The Problem with most occultists...
Is that they get involved in magick for the wrong reasons, and go about it the wrong way. I can't count the number of people who have decided to try spells and rituals and stuff to attracts mates, get more money, or any of the other silly human things we want but don't want to work for.
Almost every magical tradition I've read about has a mechanism which basically says that anything you do to another comes back on you, (i.e. karma, the Wiccan Rede, what have you.) Most of the people who have problems with magick or get screwed up after doing a spell aren't aware that they might have done something to someone else via their work, and that manipulation of another's will rebounds on them as misfortune.
To me, the true understanding of magick comes from the understanding that the forces exist, and knowing that you really shouldn't get invovled. By trying to do things in a purely mundane manner, instead of asking a deity or spirit or whatever to intervene, is the purest form of magick-you work on yourself, not others, and you only have yourself to blame when things go wrong.
It's a bit like martial arts-if you get invovled purely to control or hurt others, you'll eventually get bitten in the ass by someone or something that is bigger, badder, and more skilled than you are.
I'll gladly discuss this further with anyopne who cares to reply via e-mail.
Charles
(hello to the forum. First post.)
Is that they get involved in magick for the wrong reasons, and go about it the wrong way. I can't count the number of people who have decided to try spells and rituals and stuff to attracts mates, get more money, or any of the other silly human things we want but don't want to work for.
Almost every magical tradition I've read about has a mechanism which basically says that anything you do to another comes back on you, (i.e. karma, the Wiccan Rede, what have you.) Most of the people who have problems with magick or get screwed up after doing a spell aren't aware that they might have done something to someone else via their work, and that manipulation of another's will rebounds on them as misfortune.
To me, the true understanding of magick comes from the understanding that the forces exist, and knowing that you really shouldn't get invovled. By trying to do things in a purely mundane manner, instead of asking a deity or spirit or whatever to intervene, is the purest form of magick-you work on yourself, not others, and you only have yourself to blame when things go wrong.
It's a bit like martial arts-if you get invovled purely to control or hurt others, you'll eventually get bitten in the ass by someone or something that is bigger, badder, and more skilled than you are.
I'll gladly discuss this further with anyopne who cares to reply via e-mail.
Charles
(hello to the forum. First post.)
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FraterLibre
Guest
Re: The Problem with most occultists...
I like the comparison of martial arts and magick. I disagree about others more skilled in magick "kicking ass". Doesn't work that way. I also disagree about spirits and so on; those are tropes to help us think about things a certain way and are projections, far as anyone can tell.
Magick is will applied to physics, and it is hard work, not a free ride, not Buffy nonsense, and not superstition or magical thinking.
It's the fact that one must work hard to work one's will on reality that stops most from mastering even a fraction of any actual magick system they come across, and thank heavens. Else we'd all be dead long since from disgruntled teens.
Greens001 said:
I like the comparison of martial arts and magick. I disagree about others more skilled in magick "kicking ass". Doesn't work that way. I also disagree about spirits and so on; those are tropes to help us think about things a certain way and are projections, far as anyone can tell.
Magick is will applied to physics, and it is hard work, not a free ride, not Buffy nonsense, and not superstition or magical thinking.
It's the fact that one must work hard to work one's will on reality that stops most from mastering even a fraction of any actual magick system they come across, and thank heavens. Else we'd all be dead long since from disgruntled teens.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2003
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- 45
The "kicking ass" comment...
Was specifically directed towards the martial arts aspect of analogy, and the "skilled" part was re:magick. So, in a since, I don't really think of being able to magickally kick ass, although I've heard of a fair share of magick duels between famous magicians (more spefically between Crowley and...someone else at the group he founded, whose name escapes me.)
As for the spirit part, I'm not sure what exactly you are disagreeing about. There are systems that make use of spirits to get things done, and I was merely making reference to them.
And about magick being hard; I think it is only because we've convinced ourselves that it really should be. It's all about perception, right?
After all, the ritual tools and robes and chanting and stuff are only keys that tell our mind that we are performing a magickal act. y using them, we seperate our normal, everyday lives fromt he time when we are "practising" actual magic. But what if you realized that everything you do is magick, and that the tools and what-not are only serving to keep you seperated from a connection to (insert your chosen term here.)?
This is all only my opinion, naturally. It's based on my own expereinces, and wil likely have very little pertenance to magicians outside my little circle. It is my belief, however, that the very things that we use as tools and traditions keep us shackled to traditions made by other people for their own use
I agree with you about the free ride, though. Nothing ever is. But, if we each make our own reality (which many traditions assert,) then you can change reality (big step) by merely altering your perceptions (little step.) It may only be your reality, and if it gets changed too dramatically, then you'll be tossed in a padded cell, but little changes can have a big impact.
Charles
Was specifically directed towards the martial arts aspect of analogy, and the "skilled" part was re:magick. So, in a since, I don't really think of being able to magickally kick ass, although I've heard of a fair share of magick duels between famous magicians (more spefically between Crowley and...someone else at the group he founded, whose name escapes me.)
As for the spirit part, I'm not sure what exactly you are disagreeing about. There are systems that make use of spirits to get things done, and I was merely making reference to them.
And about magick being hard; I think it is only because we've convinced ourselves that it really should be. It's all about perception, right?
After all, the ritual tools and robes and chanting and stuff are only keys that tell our mind that we are performing a magickal act. y using them, we seperate our normal, everyday lives fromt he time when we are "practising" actual magic. But what if you realized that everything you do is magick, and that the tools and what-not are only serving to keep you seperated from a connection to (insert your chosen term here.)?
This is all only my opinion, naturally. It's based on my own expereinces, and wil likely have very little pertenance to magicians outside my little circle. It is my belief, however, that the very things that we use as tools and traditions keep us shackled to traditions made by other people for their own use
I agree with you about the free ride, though. Nothing ever is. But, if we each make our own reality (which many traditions assert,) then you can change reality (big step) by merely altering your perceptions (little step.) It may only be your reality, and if it gets changed too dramatically, then you'll be tossed in a padded cell, but little changes can have a big impact.
Charles
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FraterLibre
Guest
Ceremony & Ritual
Yes, I'd agree that ceremony and ritual tend to preserve certain traditions, but I don't know that it's a bad thing entirely. They focus one's mind. They put one into proper mental and emotional poise so magick can be to some purpose.
Lifting a glass of water to m¥ lips and drinking some water from the glass is an act of magick. It is me applying my will to physical reality. That is how magick works, in this most mundane of examples.
Should I want a better job, or some other improvement in my life, I must first focus on it, then find ways to make it real, (or to manifest it), in the physical world. This requires genuine work and effort on my part. If all I ever do toward reaching my goals is ceremony and ritual, nothing will be done and the goal will remain unaccomplished. Prayer sans effort = nothing much. "God helps those who help themselves" and so on.
This is where magical thinking comes in. People believe the Buffy nonsense that if one simply "casts a spell" or "conjures spirits" to do one's bidding, it will be done. This is superstitious and that's my objection to it.
Appealing to spirits of what ever sort is just another way of focusing one's mind and preparing one's self for the efforts necessary to reach a goal. Having the goal in the first place requires focus. Having a realistic goal requires self knowledge and a sober assessment of physical reality's conditions and situations, plus social awareness all too often.
Paracelsus, who's lab I've toured, is exactly right, and Shakespeare echoed this sentiment when he said: "All things be ready if our minds by so."
Oh, and the reason so many rely on other traditions is, why re-invent the wheel?
Yes, I'd agree that ceremony and ritual tend to preserve certain traditions, but I don't know that it's a bad thing entirely. They focus one's mind. They put one into proper mental and emotional poise so magick can be to some purpose.
Lifting a glass of water to m¥ lips and drinking some water from the glass is an act of magick. It is me applying my will to physical reality. That is how magick works, in this most mundane of examples.
Should I want a better job, or some other improvement in my life, I must first focus on it, then find ways to make it real, (or to manifest it), in the physical world. This requires genuine work and effort on my part. If all I ever do toward reaching my goals is ceremony and ritual, nothing will be done and the goal will remain unaccomplished. Prayer sans effort = nothing much. "God helps those who help themselves" and so on.
This is where magical thinking comes in. People believe the Buffy nonsense that if one simply "casts a spell" or "conjures spirits" to do one's bidding, it will be done. This is superstitious and that's my objection to it.
Appealing to spirits of what ever sort is just another way of focusing one's mind and preparing one's self for the efforts necessary to reach a goal. Having the goal in the first place requires focus. Having a realistic goal requires self knowledge and a sober assessment of physical reality's conditions and situations, plus social awareness all too often.
Paracelsus, who's lab I've toured, is exactly right, and Shakespeare echoed this sentiment when he said: "All things be ready if our minds by so."
Oh, and the reason so many rely on other traditions is, why re-invent the wheel?
The thing is, using magic to gain material things in some way is a debasement of what it's all about (IMHO) - that is, increased self-awareness, and/or insight into one's self and the world. And sometimes, even ritual isn't needed to do this - take into account, for example, what happened to Elizabeth Fox when Crowley put her in shed on a clifftop and left her completely alone for several weeks. Despite his faults and his own lack of self-discipline, ol' Crowley at least understood some things about the mind works and how magic functions through it.
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FraterLibre
Guest
Fox Incident
The AC / Fox incident is largely a myth. However, your point about using magick for material gain being a debasement is quite right. It's what everyone average does. A mage on the other hand is supposed to know himself and be enlightened and elevated and thus be beyond worrying about the physical illusion.
It's about changing one's self, for as above, so below.
The AC / Fox incident is largely a myth. However, your point about using magick for material gain being a debasement is quite right. It's what everyone average does. A mage on the other hand is supposed to know himself and be enlightened and elevated and thus be beyond worrying about the physical illusion.
It's about changing one's self, for as above, so below.
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FraterLibre
Guest
Source
JerryB - What is the source you are citing for this story? How long does it claim she was "left alone"? If she was actually alone, how does anyone know what happened to her, or even if she remained alone, or stayed there at all the whole time?
So much apocrypha surrounds Uncle Al's llife and times that this incident's dire qualities lead me to doubt it. It does not appear in Sutin's biography at all, for instance.
You are right, however, to bring up AC's knowledge of many ways to change one's self, and to learn about and get to know one's self, from eschewing use of the words "I, me, mine" for a week, to remaining isolated in a sort of social ganzfeld.
JerryB - What is the source you are citing for this story? How long does it claim she was "left alone"? If she was actually alone, how does anyone know what happened to her, or even if she remained alone, or stayed there at all the whole time?
So much apocrypha surrounds Uncle Al's llife and times that this incident's dire qualities lead me to doubt it. It does not appear in Sutin's biography at all, for instance.
You are right, however, to bring up AC's knowledge of many ways to change one's self, and to learn about and get to know one's self, from eschewing use of the words "I, me, mine" for a week, to remaining isolated in a sort of social ganzfeld.
Well, I first read about it many moons ago in Colin Wilson's book 'The Occult', and it struck me as interesting at the time as I'd also just read about how Mohammed had had a 'revelation' from Allah after spending time in complete isolation in a cave. In the aforementioned book, Fox spent 19+ days in the 'shed', during which time Crowley made sure she was taken food every day. I think Wilson takes his account from William Seabrook's 'Witchcraft - It's Power in the World Today'. It may be apocryphal, but then again it doesn't really act as an advert for Crowley, as he didn't really do anything 
A
Anonymous
Guest
Well, i think this thread is great:
We've got taxi drivers who fall back on the craft for a little protection, other bods that have a pretty good grounding in the "official" workings of ceremonial magick, IT sales people into ancestral worship...
The only thing i would add, that to me is more important than all the gum mastic, athames, incense, theribules etc is Faith.
Even thought i don't really think He existed, or He said it, Matthew 17, 20-21 is a peach:
"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you".
I've got a right little hodge-podge hoodoo going on, and every time i've asked (which, i must say is rare), i got.
Lastly, I don't think that asking for material wealth, sexual gratification or whatever is inherently "wrong" or against magical practice. It's all about (as in wider life) taking responsibility and being aware of the possible consequences of your actions.
We've got taxi drivers who fall back on the craft for a little protection, other bods that have a pretty good grounding in the "official" workings of ceremonial magick, IT sales people into ancestral worship...
The only thing i would add, that to me is more important than all the gum mastic, athames, incense, theribules etc is Faith.
Even thought i don't really think He existed, or He said it, Matthew 17, 20-21 is a peach:
"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you".
I've got a right little hodge-podge hoodoo going on, and every time i've asked (which, i must say is rare), i got.
Lastly, I don't think that asking for material wealth, sexual gratification or whatever is inherently "wrong" or against magical practice. It's all about (as in wider life) taking responsibility and being aware of the possible consequences of your actions.
F
FraterLibre
Guest
Wilson & Seabrook
Wilson's good, and his book The Occult is must reading for anyone, (as is his book Mysteries), but he does tend toward book research. On the other hand, Seabrook actually met and, more surprisingly, liked AC just prior to Crowley's sojourn into New York state farmland, where he painted the cliff with his DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW. Seabrook's view of Crowley as a charming, smart, provocative Brit with a gleam in his eye and a spring in his step, as well as his mind in Eastern mysticsm, coincides rather well with the notion of a forced isolation.
I own both Witchcraft and Voodoo Island by Seabrook and I'll check them for this reference.
You're also right in saying it wasn't really Crowley doing anything with Ms. Fox, but then again, he supposedly instigated it. Who knows? Perhaps it's not apocryphal, but later biographers have had trouble pinning down whether it actually happened, (notably Sutin, whose is the most balanced), which is why I characterized it as mostly mythical.
Also, the point about magick being about cognizance, about taking responsibility, is exactly right. A Mage can have what ever is wished, but must understand why it's wished, and what it's for, or all is in vain and likely to crumble. And remember, faith changes perception. Often faith leads us to misinterpret, and that is a great danger to any mage.
What is more interesting in the context of this discussion is the broader question of whether anyone here has undergone an isolation exercise of this sort and, if so, what was learned. Anyone?
Wilson's good, and his book The Occult is must reading for anyone, (as is his book Mysteries), but he does tend toward book research. On the other hand, Seabrook actually met and, more surprisingly, liked AC just prior to Crowley's sojourn into New York state farmland, where he painted the cliff with his DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW. Seabrook's view of Crowley as a charming, smart, provocative Brit with a gleam in his eye and a spring in his step, as well as his mind in Eastern mysticsm, coincides rather well with the notion of a forced isolation.
I own both Witchcraft and Voodoo Island by Seabrook and I'll check them for this reference.
You're also right in saying it wasn't really Crowley doing anything with Ms. Fox, but then again, he supposedly instigated it. Who knows? Perhaps it's not apocryphal, but later biographers have had trouble pinning down whether it actually happened, (notably Sutin, whose is the most balanced), which is why I characterized it as mostly mythical.
Also, the point about magick being about cognizance, about taking responsibility, is exactly right. A Mage can have what ever is wished, but must understand why it's wished, and what it's for, or all is in vain and likely to crumble. And remember, faith changes perception. Often faith leads us to misinterpret, and that is a great danger to any mage.
What is more interesting in the context of this discussion is the broader question of whether anyone here has undergone an isolation exercise of this sort and, if so, what was learned. Anyone?
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2003
- Messages
- 45
eljubbo said:
I agree-asking for these things, or more to the point, working towards obtaining them, is fine, in and of itself. There is a fine line between making yourself more attractive to others and making others like you. This is a line that many neophyte magicians either don't see or don't want to see.
These sort of issues take exceedingly careful planning and meditation before you know for a fact that you've got everything set up so that you aren't manipulating others. This takes discipline that many people simply don't have. Personally, I'm one of these-the detail that goes into this sort of work is just a little too much more my lazy self, so I use that energy on pursuing these goals in a mundane manner.
Charles
eljubbo said:
Well, I for one have never figured out why such things are said to have double-back on you if done for the wrong reasons. It seems to have some sort of rather daft morality about it
But at the same time I'd argue that using magic for such things is not what it's really all about - it misses the mark, and shows that you're still stuck down in the world of material things.