Magnetic Fields: Detection & Measurement

Joharp

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#1
Hi, first post here so hello to everyone.

I'm looking to borrow a magnetometer to survey some of Derbyshire's megaliths. Can anyone tell me if they...

know of a person/group that may have such an item?

or know of anyone carrying out such a survey?

Thanks

John
 

Joharp

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#2
"why build it there?"... If we knew why they built it, then we'd be able to answer this question.
"I get the feeling someone worships there"... You see quite a lot of new age pagan paraphernalia at these sites, nothing to do with their original purpose.

Various studies have shown that anomalous geomagnetic activity is found at megalithic sites, so here's another question... what form would this anomalous geomagnetic activity have taken three thousand years ago when the Earth’s magnetic field was far stronger?
 

Krepostnoi

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#3
Can't help with the magnetometer but...

Arbor Low?

I found flowers on one of the stones there once - I get the feeling someone worships there.

You have to ask - why build it there? Its not near water, or anything else, and its always, always windy and freezing.
Why build it there?! "On top of the world, Ma!" I think the location is stunning. It's one of my favourite places.
 

Ermintruder

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#4
@Joharp have you done your survey, with or without a magnetometer? I've much more to say on this, but it'll be tomorrow (well, in daylight, today).

Presumably you have also tried to use a navigation needle compass as a local EM field indicator?
 

rynner2

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#5
@Joharp have you done your survey, with or without a magnetometer? I've much more to say on this, but it'll be tomorrow (well, in daylight, today).

Presumably you have also tried to use a navigation needle compass as a local EM field indicator?
A needle compass will indicate the direction of a magnetic field, but it can't respond to an EM field, since the interwoven electric and magnetic components are alternating far too fast - at the frequency of the EM field, in fact.
No sooner would the needle try to move this way under the influence of the magnetic component, than the field would reverse and the needle would try to move that way!

So, a compass needle is far too big and clunky to respond to EM fields. Since the air is filled with various radio signals of various frequencies, a compass that did respond to them would be pretty useless as a compass!
 

Ermintruder

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#6
So, a compass needle is far too big and clunky to respond to EM field
I don't entirely agree....a compass needle will respond to a strong local EM field, say for example one generated by power lines, or in the near-field of a cellphone transmitter. And as we all know, it will be affected/influenced by large ferrous objects.

So it's better than nothing- but hopeless for objective measurements or nuanced detection of low field strengths. But a compass might also show some indication of trends, relative vatiations.

A flux-gate beast is the way to go (and forget any 'app solutions'....I just tried downloading one, to my unsmart phone, and it's effectively just a christmas cracker compass, pseudocalibrated in nanoteslas)
 

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#7
I don't entirely agree....a compass needle will respond to a strong local EM field, say for example one generated by power lines, or in the near-field of a cellphone transmitter. And as we all know, it will be affected/influenced by large ferrous objects.

So it's better than nothing- but hopeless for objective measurements or nuanced detection of low field strengths. But a compass might also show some indication of trends, relative vatiations.

A flux-gate beast is the way to go (and forget any 'app solutions'....I just tried downloading one, to my unsmart phone, and it's effectively just a christmas cracker compass, pseudocalibrated in nanoteslas)
I've absolutely NO idea what you've just said but it sounded good either way ..
 

Joharp

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#8
Hi Ermintrude
Your right, a compass needle will exhibit movement in response to the geomagnetic pulsations I want to monitor, but its not a very precise way to measure them. These micro-pulsations (now internationally designated ULF waves, ranging from 1mHz to 1Hz) were first spotted in the end of a very long compass needle by some guy in the 1700's.

For some years now I have suspected that megaliths, be they tombs or temples, were unwittingly designed to capture and utilise these ULF waves. I say unwittingly because these ULF waves are produced in the earth's magnetic field lines by solar activity, and back then the sun was the focus of attention, not these magnetic pulsations.

A relationship between ULF waves and megaliths has now been observed in the works of Paul Devereux and the Dragon Project, Pierre Mereaux at Carnac, and John Burke and Kaj Halberg across the Americas, the British Isles, and Egypt. What I want to do now is build upon this body of work, by collecting more time-specific data, as suggested by my research.

So your right Ermintrude, only a fluxgate magnetometer will do the job! Anybody got one I can borrow?
 

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#9
I don't entirely agree....a compass needle will respond to a strong local EM field, say for example one generated by power lines, or in the near-field of a cellphone transmitter. And as we all know, it will be affected/influenced by large ferrous objects.

So it's better than nothing- but hopeless for objective measurements or nuanced detection of low field strengths. But a compass might also show some indication of trends, relative vatiations.

A flux-gate beast is the way to go (and forget any 'app solutions'....I just tried downloading one, to my unsmart phone, and it's effectively just a christmas cracker compass, pseudocalibrated in nanoteslas)
You are correct about a compass responding to a nearby magnetic field. Note: BTW magnetic fields will generate an electric field.

The magnetic field lines of a bar magnet can be traced out with the use of a compass. The needle of a compass is itself a permanent magnet and the north indicator of the compass is a magnetic north pole. The north pole of a magnet will tend to line up with the magnetic field, so a suspended compas needle will rotate until it lines up with the magnetic field. Unlike magnetic poles attract, so the north indicator of the compass will point toward the south pole of a magnet. In response to the Earth's magnetic field, the compass will point toward the geographic North Pole of the Earth because it is in fact a magnetic south pole. The magnetic field lines of the Earth enter the Earth near the geographic North Pole.
 

Ermintruder

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#10
@Joharp I am aware of the fairly well-known work of Devereux, but I'm afraid Mereaux, Burke and Halberg are unknown to me. Shall look them up, when I've more time.

I must ask if you've read any of the intriguing material by Christopher Knight, regarding his theories on geopathy/geomancy?

If not, I'm going to have to try and post some of it here. And if it's unknown to you, prepare to be extremely interested.
 

rynner2

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#11
Note: BTW magnetic fields will generate an electric field.
Only if they are moved, relative to, say, a conductor.
Similarly a moving electric field will generate a magnetic field.

Faraday worked all this out a couple of hundred years ago! (It's the basis for electric generators and motors.)

And Maxwell built on this work to show that self-perpetuating combined electric and magnetic fields would travel at the speed of light - this was the discovery of electromagnetic (EM) radiation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations
(There's a neat animated graphic nearly halfway down that page that shows the relationship between the electric and magnetic components of an EM wave.)
 

Jim

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#12
Only if they are moved, relative to, say, a conductor.
Similarly a moving electric field will generate a magnetic field.

Faraday worked all this out a couple of hundred years ago! (It's the basis for electric generators and motors.)

And Maxwell built on this work to show that self-perpetuating combined electric and magnetic fields would travel at the speed of light - this was the discovery of electromagnetic (EM) radiation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations
(There's a neat animated graphic nearly halfway down that page that shows the relationship between the electric and magnetic components of an EM wave.)
This is true
 
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#13
Compasses will react to to a magnetic field of course, but the needle can't move that fast, so any magnetic field which varies at more than (say) 1Hz or so would not show up on a regular compass.

On the standing stones. I recall some work in the 70's/80's on ultrasonic noise near standing stones, especially at sunrise. I thought myself, that it would be possible for stone with a percentage of quartz to generate, with a change in temperature, a slight piezo-electric effect, which might kick off an oscillation in the ultrasonic range. It might show up as an electric field in the ultrasonic frequency (20-40KHz) with it's attendant magnetic field, but it would be very small I'd have thought.

I'd certainly look into the composition of the stones.

I'd also check out the frequency range of the magnetometer as well.
 

Jim

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#14
So, a compass needle is far too big and clunky to respond to EM fields. Since the air is filled with various radio signals of various frequencies, a compass that did respond to them would be pretty useless as a compass!
A compass can’t respond to radio signals because the rate of oscillation (frequency) is too high (RF ranges from 3 kHz to 300 GHz). However if the frequency is made low enough, sub-hertz and the signal was strong enough it could then possible influence a compass. All these signals fall into the electromagnetic spectrum.

Also most radio signals are very weak > -86dBV or -73 dBm. As such even if a compass could respond to high frequencies the induced power would be far too low to produce any such effect. Except for close proximity readers like RF bar code scanners all RF devices need sensitive receivers to be able to pull the input signal in from out of the noise and amplify it, in order to be able to discern the signal.

Devices that intentionally respond to respond to RF signals must have filtering so as to only pick up the desired signal(s). This also would be impossible with a simple compass.
 

Jim

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#15
Compasses will react to to a magnetic field of course, but the needle can't move that fast, so any magnetic field which varies at more than (say) 1Hz or so would not show up on a regular compass.

On the standing stones. I recall some work in the 70's/80's on ultrasonic noise near standing stones, especially at sunrise. I thought myself, that it would be possible for stone with a percentage of quartz to generate, with a change in temperature, a slight piezo-electric effect, which might kick off an oscillation in the ultrasonic range. It might show up as an electric field in the ultrasonic frequency (20-40KHz) with it's attendant magnetic field, but it would be very small I'd have thought.

I'd certainly look into the composition of the stones.

I'd also check out the frequency range of the magnetometer as well.
That's actually not a bad thought!
 
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#16
Devices that intentionally respond to respond to RF signals must have filtering so as to only pick up the desired signal(s). This also would be impossible with a simple compass.
Exactly. A moving needle compass can be thought of as a low pass filters with the 3dB point in the region of 1Hz (I'd estimate, by 'wiggling' the 'Silva' compass on my shelf.
 

Joharp

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#17
Coal, you sound like an expert, am I getting confused between the strength of our geomagnetic field and the micropulsations, or ULF waves that travel along its field lines; they are two distinct phenomena, aren't they?
You mention work done in the 70's/80's on ultrasonic noise near standing stones. This was part of the Dragon Project. Paul Devereux mentions it in his book "Places of Power".
 
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#18
Coal, you sound like an expert, am I getting confused between the strength of our geomagnetic field and the micropulsations, or ULF waves that travel along its field lines; they are two distinct phenomena, aren't they?
You mention work done in the 70's/80's on ultrasonic noise near standing stones. This was part of the Dragon Project. Paul Devereux mentions it in his book "Places of Power".
It's best to disabuse yourself of the idea that there are 'field lines'. They're just a way of representing a continuous field, in the same way contours on a map don't show 'steps' in the terrain. The earth's standing magnetic field is fairly static (in the day-to-day sense), but I've no idea whether there are higher frequency components overlaid with the 'standing' field.

You'll need to think in terms of the frequency domain of the magnetic field variations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_domain

To be frank, I've have though small variations at any frequency will be very hard to separate from the background noise of the worlds EMF smog.
 

Joharp

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#19
Hi Coal
First of all let me say that I'm not an expert in this area, but I'm keenly interested the earths magnetic field because it was undoubtedly important to people who built megaliths, and as were just beginning to realise, it's also of immense importance to our and health and the rhythms of our lives, and that of the biosphere in general.

I think this quote partly explains my question...
Near Earth space is a magnetised plasma environment where ULF energy propagates as magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) waves which can be measured using sensitive magnetometers. http://www.sws.bom.gov.au/IPSHosted/STSP/meetings/aip/colin/clwdopp.htm
So let me see if I have this right... I know that the earth has a static magnetic field and that's its strength waxes and wanes over millennia and that its polarity changes in relation to its strength. However, the sun, or rather the plasma energy it forcefully ejects, interacts with the Earths field in Near Earth Space causing (complicated process) these magnetohydrodynamic waves to propagate towards the surface of the Earth. It is possible to measure the frequency and polarity of these waves with a magnetometer. The problem I have is getting around the strength of the geomagnetic field and understanding what relevance it has, if any, on these magnetohydodynamic waves? I ask because back in 2000 BCE the earths field was double what it is today.

John
 
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#20
John, I truly have no idea, I'd have to research it, I think you'll have to do some reading!

You're going to get into the interaction of three-dimensional vector fields and that was pretty hard maths (at least it was for me some 25 years back).

Coal
 

Ermintruder

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#21
The problem I have is getting around the strength of the geomagnetic field and understanding what relevance it has, if any, on these magnetohydodynamic waves?
This is an extremely-interesting point. I mentioned earlier the fascinating observations made by Christopher Knight, which I'll try and transcribe and summatise key points from (but not right now).

One of his fundamental beliefs (arrived at by some level of experiment and research) is that the geomagnetic fields generated by monoliths (either singular, or in arrays) have been deliberately and interventionally modified by ancient man.

Whilst this sounds initially to be fringe pseudoscience, he argues that the stones have been heated by fire to beyond the Curie Point of the random particulate/aggregate of the material from which they are composed, such that they now exhibit magnetic fields which are homogenous/holoferric, as a discrete entity. He further asserts that the inter-stone magnetic fields within a standing circle are also aligned, measureably-so.

This is what's particularly interesting about his work. If we consider that (for the purposes of comparison) ley lines and such fringery as being analogous to homeopathy, in terms of their indefinable vagueness and weak-force woowoo quotient (I apologise to some of my professional geopathic friends, your time may yet come): by contrast, the ground stone magnetosphere of Mr Knight is implicitly so strong that it could (perhaps) be strong-enough to influence a compass needle, let alone a flux-gate magnetometer.

Yes, you're way ahead of me (no, you're not, but you might as well be)...Why would ancient man have wanted to do this? In the assumed absence of actual needle compasses?

At this point, I'm not going to reveal what Chris Knight says he believes the "stone circle magnetospheres" were intended for. If you know his work, you'll know what he asserts. And if you don't, you can guess for now, and be right (and that's why it disturbs me).

And back, pole-to-pole...
The problem I have is getting around the strength of the geomagnetic field and understanding what relevance it has, if any, on these magnetohydodynamic waves?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics
"The fundamental concept behind magnetohydodynamics is that magnetic fields can induce currents in a moving conductive fluid, which in turn polarizes the fluid and reciprocally changes the magnetic field itself. The set of equations that describe magnetohydodynamics are a combination of the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics and Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism. These differential equations must be solved simultaneously, either analytically or numerically."
 
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#22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics
"The fundamental concept behind magnetohydodynamics is that magnetic fields can induce currents in a moving conductive fluid, which in turn polarizes the fluid and reciprocally changes the magnetic field itself. The set of equations that describe magnetohydodynamics are a combination of the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics and Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism. These differential equations must be solved simultaneously, either analytically or numerically."
Like I said really hard maths... :cry:

At this point, I'm not going to reveal what Chris Knight says he believes the "stone circle magnetospheres" were intended for. If you know his work, you'll know what he asserts. And if you don't, you can guess for now, and be right (and that's why it disturbs me).
I had to look him up, not having heard of him and I've got to say you can drive a truck through his arguments (at least the ones on the internet). I'm not saying that one can't personally detect effects caused by big lumps of rock (heated or otherwise) though. Robins can detect the angle of incidence of the earths geo-magnetic field and use the angle to know which way is south (see "Life on the Edge" Al-Khalili & McFadden). It's not impossible, but seems quite unlikely.

If you wanted to show that the stones had been heated past the Curie point, their permanent magnetic fields would align with the magnetic poles as they were when the heating took place. Pottery in situ in ancient kilns has been dated in this way. So if all the stones have the same alignment (magnetically) and they were pointing at where the poles currently are not located, I'd be impressed. I'd be quite impressed having "annealed" the stones, if they got them in any kind of alignment with each other, magnetically speaking, at all.

If I was doing this, I'd start with measuring a circle's stones magnetic fields and see which way they are all pointing. If those alignments are random, then that would pretty much put the kibosh on any 'magnetosphere' idea.
 

Ermintruder

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#23
If I was doing this, I'd start with measuring a circle's stones magnetic fields and see which way they are all pointing. If those alignments are random, then that would pretty much put the kibosh on any 'magnetosphere' idea.
Exactly. Christopher Knight sets himself up for a big fall, if these (let's call it) measurable magnetic modifications fail to be.....measureable. He claims to be working in the geophysics stratum of reality, rathed than the metaphysics department of possibility.

I don't think he was claiming that the stones, post-"annealment" (I like that word) got themselves into alignment....I understood that his interpretation was that the stones were heated, potentially close to in situ, cooled (that being the only easy part), adoptive of a unified singular alignment (influenced, I would expect, by the earth's magnetic field)....and then placed into productive apposition with each-other.

I can't see why a picture I'm about to place below (if I can) represents such a massive leap away from conventional understanding of what was within the capabilities of ancient peoples.....behold, the Chinese compass-spoon

Or, a sliver of an iron vein hewn from the same quarries that gave birth to the stones..not shiny and smooth, like a modern needle, but ferrous, straight and (almost) unerringly-accurate. Threaded to a feather, floating upon the surface of the water in an earthenware dish.....
 
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#24
The idea of a compass isn't such a large leap, I agree.

However, the idea that one can heat a big stone to a curie point to 'align' the magnetic fields and then point all those stones' fields in such a way as to represent some form of mystical technology, is.
 

Ermintruder

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#25
...and then point all those stones' fields in such a way as to represent some form of mystical technology, is.
For sure....but, by way of intermediate clarification, he's not claiming (as far as I can tell) any sort of paleotechnic wizardry.

He's asserting the differentially-astounding claim that the human-realigned magnetic fields deliberately-created within the stone clusters dramatically increases mental awareness. I find this interesting, counter-intuitive, and easily-testable (even without compasses or flux-gates)
 

Ermintruder

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#27
How do you quantify mental awareness?
Knight does that (by which I mean resolves his own metric of subjective increased mental ability) by achieving a higher hit-rate of accuracy for remote viewing sessions. I'll try and type-up the relevent segment later, from "Blueprint", unless anyone beats me to it.
 

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#29
What is the source of the claim that the Earth's magnetic field was twice as strong 4000 years ago?
 
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#30
That's an interesting idea. What is meant by 'awareness' in this context?

At least one person with Asperger's appears to have been given the ability to 'read' human interaction with a EMP treatment given for something else, but no-one understands how it worked. (David Eagleman's excellent BBC programs on the Brian, episode 4, I think). That one can affect the brain by changing the electrical field around it is well known and movements in limbs can even be induced with electrodes on the skin and someone's even got a mechanical hand working with a network of implanted electrodes in the scalp. Certainly work is ongoing on using electrodes networks and the output from them to control computer screen cursors.

However the magnetic field caused by (say) standing stones that have been 'polarised' is going to be so small, compared with the earth's standing field and the resulting electrical component so tiny, it's a tad improbable. And that's before the sequence of events required for someone to come up with the idea, in the late stone age/early bronze age, is factored in. For any megalithic structure predating 2500 BC (which I think is quite a large proportion) it stretches credibility even more as neither iron nor bronze was in use.

However, it should be easy to test, once we define awareness, figure out a way of testing it with controls and find a megalith constructed of the aforesaid magnetically aligned rocks.

Although I'd have thought standing between magnetized iron fence posts would have been 100 times more likely to effect the brain.
 
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