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Where Does It Come From? Origins Of Phrases & Expressions

Mythopoeika said:
You're right. You can be the evangelist of this meme - go forth and persuade the world to use that phraseology instead.
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Maybe I'll just mangle the phrase slightly so that in future someone will ask "What is the origin of the phrase 'That doesn't cup the custard'?"
 
Trevp666 said:
So what's the origin of 'cut the mustard' (as in when something isn't really good enough and it doesn't 'cut the mustard')?
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There's no general agreement on the phrase's origin, except for location and time (USA; late 19th century). This pretty much sums it up ...
Why cutting mustard was chosen as an example of high quality is unclear. As always in such circumstances, there are no shortage of guesses. Why cutting mustard was chosen as an example of high quality is unclear. As always in such circumstances, there are no shortage of guesses. Some of these allude to the literal difficulty of cutting mustard in its various forms ...

Another supposed explanation is that the phrase is simply a mistaken version of the military expression 'cut the muster'. This appears believable at first sight. A little research shows it not to be so. ... The fact that documented examples of 'cut the mustard' are known from many years before any for 'cut the muster' would appear to rule out the latter as the origin. ...

There has been an association between the heat and piquancy of mustard and the zest and energy of people's behaviour. This dates back to at least 1672, when the term 'as keen as mustard' is first recorded. 'Up to mustard' or just 'mustard' means up to standard in the same way as 'up to snuff'. 'Cutting' has also long been used to mean 'exhibiting', as in the phrase 'cutting a fine figure'. ...

Whatever the coinage, the phrase itself emerged in the USA towards the end of the 19th century. ...
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https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cut-the-mustard.html
 
Turns out, it's this (and not my earlier explanation):
When mustard was one of the main crops in East Anglia, it was cut by hand with scythes, in the same way as corn. The crop could grow up to six feet high and this was very arduous work, requiring extremely sharp tools. When blunt they "would not cut the mustard".
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Driving behind a traditional taxi cab yesterday, whose "Hackney Carriage" badge was clearly visible, got me thinking about the origin of the term and why every facet of the taxi trade is represented by "The Worshipful Company of Hackney Carriage Drivers".
I assumed, as I expect most of you did, that the term simply originated from hireable carriages first becoming popular in the London borough of Hackney.
Whilst that is the seemingly logical explanation, the truth, as is often the case, just may be somewhat stranger...

The Londonist website proffers the explanation "a 14th century term 'hackney horse', which refers to “a run-of-the-mill horse, i.e. not a warhorse or hunter, which was used for everyday riding and subsequently typified as the sort of horse available for hire”.

This term may have derived from the old French haquenée, meaning a slow, common-or-garden or worn-out horse, which is also possibly behind the expression hackneyed, meaning overused.
Some sources claim the French took the word from the Dutch hakkenij or hackeneie, for a workaday horse and others believe that the Dutch took it from Spain’s haca for a nag or gelding.

However, lexicographer Eric Partridge and Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable are among those who rebut these foreign boasts, arguing instead that the term did indeed originate in east London.
Their reasoning is that by the 12th century, Hackney was already a rural area known widely as a place where horses were put to pasture. Indeed, so famous were the hireable horses of Hackney that the post-conquest French pinched the term wholesale sometime after the 12th century and Frenchified it before the English took it back again.

So, an evocative term, with its origins almost a millennium old, synonymous with Olde London Towne (but just possibly via a Cabby's circuitous route around France, The Netherlands and Spain).

https://londonist.com/2016/10/why-are-black-cabs-called-hackney-cabs

https://thewchcd.co.uk/about-our-company/
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Driving behind a traditional taxi cab yesterday, whose "Hackney Carriage" badge was clearly visible, got me thinking about the origin of the term and why every facet of the taxi trade is represented by "The Worshipful Company of Hackney Carriage Drivers".
I assumed, as I expect most of you did, that the term simply originated from hireable carriages first becoming popular in the London borough of Hackney.
Whilst that is the seemingly logical explanation, the truth, as is often the case, just may be somewhat stranger...

The Londonist website proffers the explanation "a 14th century term 'hackney horse', which refers to “a run-of-the-mill horse, i.e. not a warhorse or hunter, which was used for everyday riding and subsequently typified as the sort of horse available for hire”.

This term may have derived from the old French haquenée, meaning a slow, common-or-garden or worn-out horse, which is also possibly behind the expression hackneyed, meaning overused.
Some sources claim the French took the word from the Dutch hakkenij or hackeneie, for a workaday horse and others believe that the Dutch took it from Spain’s haca for a nag or gelding.

However, lexicographer Eric Partridge and Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable are among those who rebut these foreign boasts, arguing instead that the term did indeed originate in east London.
Their reasoning is that by the 12th century, Hackney was already a rural area known widely as a place where horses were put to pasture. Indeed, so famous were the hireable horses of Hackney that the post-conquest French pinched the term wholesale sometime after the 12th century and Frenchified it before the English took it back again.

So, an evocative term, with its origins almost a millennium old, synonymous with Olde London Towne (but just possibly via a Cabby's circuitous route around France, The Netherlands and Spain).

https://londonist.com/2016/10/why-are-black-cabs-called-hackney-cabs

https://thewchcd.co.uk/about-our-company/
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And the origin of "old hack" for mediocre writers?
 
Might I suggest that the derivation of the computer phrase 'hacking' is different? :)
Though an aimless trot through little-known byways on someone's computer system might result in a hack?
 
Dates from the 50s or 60s (depending on who you believe) and relates to model railways of all things!

“Hacking” was first used in relation to using technical know-how back in 1955 at a meeting of the Technical Model Railroad Club. In the meeting minutes, it was used to describe how members modified the functions of their high-tech train sets."

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/a-short-history-of-hack

I really miss Enolagaia, he'd given chapter and verse of all the variants at this point. :(
 
'Hacking' has all sorts of connotations, in addition to the peri-contemporary meaning of unauthorised access to computers & networks (cf the 1980s 'WarGames' movie franchise), in addition to those "hacking into" telephone or radio communications.

The revised modern sense of 'to hack' (originating I suspect from North America) has less of a specific covert/malevolent connotation, and refers more to what used to be known as tuning/tweaking or customising: often these words are being substituted by 'hack'. There is also the related expression "life hacks", which are now seen to be shorthand insights/hints & tips via which to live life in a more efficient or effective way (gawd help us all!).

There are other meanings too, in addition to the classic horse-borne meandering (resplendent in a split-tailed eponymous jacket), and beyond the British/ Commonwealth meaning of edgy tabloid journalists.

A "hacking movement" in a wristwatch/chronometer is one within which the second hand can be stopped/frozen by pulling-out the winder crown, so as to ensure the timepiece is properly synchronised with the correct time reference (the wartime movie trope of "Synchronise watches on my mark!"). Similarly, analogue meters/dials & gauges used in electrical & electronic test devices (and bourdon-style meters on ships, railway engines etc and classic scientific/medical apparatus such as sphygmomanometers / barometers / thermometers) are said to be "hacked" if their measurement indicators can be electively-locked in place.

A 'hack' is a Scots word for a deep unhealed cut or other wound in the hand or foot (and can be used in a metaphorical sense in prose).

There are probably other meanings too.....I'll think further.
 
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Tunn11 said:
Dates from the 50s or 60s (depending on who you believe) and relates to model railways of all things!

“Hacking” was first used in relation to using technical know-how back in 1955 at a meeting of the Technical Model Railroad Club. In the meeting minutes, it was used to describe how members modified the functions of their high-tech train sets."

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/a-short-history-of-hack

I really miss Enolagaia, he'd given chapter and verse of all the variants at this point. :(
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Also a Taxi, being a 'hackney carriage.'
 
Ermintruder said:
'Hacking' has all sorts of connotations, in addition to the peri-contemporary meaning of unauthorised access to computers & networks (cf the 1980s 'WarGames' movie franchise), in addition to those "hacking into" telephone or radio communications.

The revised modern sense of 'to hack' (originating I suspect from North America) has less of a specific covert/malevolent, and refers more to what used to be known as tuning/tweaking or customising: often these words are being substituted by 'hack'. There is also the related expression "life hacks", which are now seen to be shorthand insights/hints & tips via which to live life in a more efficient or effective way (gawd help us all!).

There are other meaning too, in addition to the classic horse-borne meandering (resplendant in a split-tailed eponymous jacket), and beyond the British/ Commonwealth meaning of edgy tabloid journalists.

A "hacking movement" in a wristwatch/chronometer is one within which the second hand can be stopped/frozen by pulling-out the winder crown, so as to ensure the timepiece is properly synchronised with the correct time reference (the wartime movie trope of "Synchronise watches on my mark!"). Similarly, analogue meters/dials & gauges used in electrical & electronic test devices (and bourdon-style meters on ships, railway engines etc and classic scientific/medical apparatus such as sphygmomanometers / barometers / thermometers) are said to be "hacked" if their measurement indicators can be electively-locked in place.

A 'hack' is a Scots word for a deep unhealed cut or other wound in the hand or foot (and can be used in a metaphorical sense in prose).

There are probably other meanings too.....I'll think further.
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Just looked up hack in the OED. So many meanings it's hard to summarise them, but here goes:
Oldest meaning is as a hoe or pick; hence the action of cutting or chopping hence to the meaning of a cut or wound as you quote above.
The other meaning family is around the quality of a horse or a person; not always poor quality but sometimes ordinary or common (particularly for horses) hence to make poorer quality or common.

My OED only goes to the 1970s supplement and hack in the computer sense isn't listed. It does have the sense of 'manage, tolerate or accept' as in the phrase 'to hack it' with first citation 1955. It's plausible that this is the route to the telephone /computer usage.

Edit: Hmmm: didn't see Tunn11's post about model train hacking from 1955. Makes my musing above less plausible.

oxo
 
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Obscure UK children's TV reference.

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Ermintruder said:
A 'hack' is a Scots word for a deep unhealed cut or other wound in the hand or foot (and can be used in a metaphorical sense in prose).
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I've always understood this sense of the word to mean one of those horrible splits in the skin that can be caused when your hands dry out excessively.
 
"Nickname" has nothing to do with old Nick or any other nick or of nicking something.
It originated in Middle English as "eke-name”, a compound of “eke”, meaning “additional” or “to stretch out” (as in the modern supplemental sense of “to eke out”) and “name”.
Gradually, referring to "an ekename", morphed into "a nekename" and then ultimately to today's "nickname".
 
In Nottingham, I heard the following phrase: "Now, you've put me on a horse!"
It was used in the context of being disappointed. As in "You said we'd go to this new restaurant - we're going to something less! You put me on a horse!"
I can see it.
In effect, it's saying "you put me on a horse, but stopped me from riding it!" as in "You told me we'd do this good thing, but we've been disappointed!"
Just wondered - any other region have a similar usage?
 
ramonmercado said:
The noise that used to be made to summon a hackney cab.
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Hack;

"person hired to do routine work," c. 1700, ultimately short for hackney "an ordinary horse, horse for general service (especially for driving or riding, as opposed to war, hunting, or hauling)," c. 1300. This word is probably from the place name Hackney Middlesex. Apparently nags were raised on the pastureland there in early medieval times. Extended sense of "horse for hire" (late 14c.) led naturally to "broken-down nag," and also "prostitute" (1570s) and "a drudge" (1540s), especially a literary one, one who writes according to direction or demand. Sense of "carriage for hire" (1704) led to modern slang for "taxicab." As an adjective, 1734, from the noun.
 
Presumably most forum members will be familiar with the idiomatic use of the word "vanilla" in the metaphoric sense of eg 'the restaurant menu offered a rather vanilla range of options' or 'I found the author's most-famous books to be extremely vanilla in style'. This is indicating blandness, unexceptionality, a utilitarian absence of sophistication.

Keeping the above in mind, today I clearly heard someone in an online meeting say that they "hoped they were going to go through a custard procurement process".... :crazy:

Clearly the person was intending to mean the same as vanilla. But....are these two words metaphorically-interchangeable, in fact secretly synonymous?

Please help me out here: is this a slice of hidden universality that I've missed?
 
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'Don't start!'

Where I live, if someone is starting, they are jumping into an argument.
Probably the same as everywhere else in Britain.

However, locally the entire expression is 'Don't start yer act!', 'act' meaning 'performance', or a well-rehearsed procedure.
The argument is an old one that has been held many times before.

Thusly:
- I'm goin' down t'Black 'orse for a jar.
- Oh yeah, just the one, but it's never just the one is it! Eh? Eh?
- (rolling eyes) Don't start yer act!

Had this same conversation, usually in the truncated form, sooo many times. :chuckle:
 
Ermintruder said:
Presumably most forum members will be familiar with the idiomatic use of the word "vanilla" in the metaphoric sense of eg 'the restaurant menu offered a rather vanilla range of options' or 'I found the author's most-famous books to be extremely vanilla in style'. This is indicating blandness, unexceptionality, a utilitarian absence of sophistication.

Keeping the above in mind, today I clearly heard someone in an online meeting say that they "hoped they were going to go through a custard procurement process".... :crazy:

Clearly the person was intending to mean the same as vanilla. But....are these two words metaphorically-interchangeable, in fact secretly synonymous?

Please help me out here: is this a slice of hidden universality that I've missed?
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Not the same as that use of vanilla, as @Frideswide has pointed out.

The only non-food use of the word custard, when used as an adjective, that I can think of, is linked to custard pie throwing onstage or in films - as in "slapstick" comedy.
It might be used to describe a "Custard pie procurement" as something that was farcical.

But that is hardly something to be hoped for..
 
Victory’s post above got me wondering why yellow is linked to cowardice & on looking it up,

yellow-bellied for cowardly was first seen definitively in English language print in 1924, in Percy Marks The Plastic Age when he wrote: “Yellow-bellied quiters.”
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Prior to this yellow has had various derogatory religious connections
in the 1100s in France, Cathar heretics who repented were forced to wear yellow crosses as part of their penance.

Similarly, Jews, widely despised by other religions at the time, had been forced to wear some type of marker since the days of the Umayyad Caliph Umar II (8th century), and by the 12th century Jewish men in Baghdad each wore two yellow badges (one on the head and another on the neck). This practice of marking Jews in yellow continued throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance,

By the late 14th century, Venetian prostitutes were also wearing yellow – a practice that spread throughout Italy during the Renaissance; reflecting this, in Renaissance artwork Mary Magdalene was often depicted in yellow as well.

By the time of the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834), heretics were dressed in tunics of yellow cloth called a Sanbenito (for Saint Benedict). Moreover, from the late Middle Ages yellow had been associated with falsehood, treason and treachery; Judas was also often depicted wearing yellow at this time.

Yellow continued its descent in the late 18th century when the phrase yellow-belly was first identified as a xenophobic, derogatory term
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Yellowbelly (or yeller belly) is also a name for people from the Lincolnshire Fens although the actual origin of the nickname is disputed. But note the lack of a hyphen ... it's not because they are considered cowardly people :)

For example:-

The Lincolnshire Regiment wore yellow waistcoats as part of their uniform and their nickname was then used for anyone from the county. According to the Sealed Knot Society, officers directing the Lincolnshire troops in the civil war, wore yellow sashes in battle.

Or:-

As this area of England is marshy, and contains eels. People say that both the eels and the people have yellow bellies. The term is found in Francis Grose's 1787 A provincial glossary; with a collection of local proverbs etc.
 
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