Railway Ghosts

[Tunn11]

Misprint for "forest widdle".

 

[DrPaulLee]

Thanks, if there are any Norfolk stories Id like to use them in my book. I only have three railway stories so far, and this would be one of them.

 

[eburacum]

Mrs. Dixon, waking up, wanted to know what the excitement was about. She soon joined her husband at the window; they both listened, they could hear the sound of a train coming to the village, the clear night seemed to amplify the unmistakable sound of a steam engine getting nearer. They looked at each other, then peered out of the window again, then they saw it — an engine pulling two coaches passing slowly along the rusting line. As it slowly chuffed out of sight the Dixons were puzzled, where would a passenger train be running to at around 3am, who would be opening the gates and operating the signals? Still wondering they returned to bed and sleep.
The following day Mr. Dixon mentioned the incident to his workmates on the farm. They looked at each other and grinned, one man said 'You've been dreaming, no passenger train has run down this line for years.' But the Dixons were adamant, they knew what they had seen and it was very real to them and neither could be accused of romancing or being under the influence of drink.
Mr. and Mrs. Dixon went to have a look at the line; it was very rusty and overgrown and there was no sign of anything having travelled on it for a long time, although the goods did use it occasionally.

Rather than a goods train at 3am, it may have been an inspector's special, scheduled at night to test signal sighting (or something else in the dark). Inspector's special trains generally used passenger-rated stock, but in the 1950s it would usually be a single coach. Maybe a dedicated railway enthusiast would be able to uncover the Eastern Region inspection train that operated in this area at the time.

Perhaps the best person to ask would have been the local signalman, who would probably need to book overtime for the passage of a night train.

 

[SimonBurchell]

Thanks, if there are any Norfolk stories Id like to use them in my book. I only have three railway stories so far, and this would be one of them.

I just flicked through Railway Ghosts & Phantoms and found just one story from Norfolk, relating to the sighting of a supposedly phantom passenger train at West Dereham, at 3am on a line which at the time (mid 1950s) was only used for goods traffic.

There is nothing in the account which rules it out being late-night movement of obsolete rolling stock - in fact the slow progress of the train indicates it was taking a cautious approach to the run-down state of the line, and perhaps of the passenger coaches.

 

[catseye]

Yes, I have to say that a 'ghost train' on a track that was still used occasionally is more likely to be a real, flesh-and-blood (you know what I mean!) train. It's the stories of the sound of trains running where there is no longer any track that make my spine tingle.

 

[catseye]

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/ghost-stories-from-the-archives-a-haunted-railway-613255

I was trying to find information about some of our local abandoned railway lines, after spending a day on Sunday on the Wolds, telling my son in law about the old tunne that runs under the wolds, and also having been up on the moors and walking along the old track at Rosedale. So I googled Yorkshire railway hauntings, whereupon I turned up this article.

The really big mystery seems to be that - although it purports to be in the Yorkshire Post, it relates to the Chatham and Sittingbourne railway, which has little to nothing to do with Yorkshire...

 

[Erinaceus]

Chatham and Sittingbourne aren't that far from Leeds Castle though.

 

[Cochise]

I just flicked through Railway Ghosts & Phantoms and found just one story from Norfolk, relating to the sighting of a supposedly phantom passenger train at West Dereham, at 3am on a line which at the time (mid 1950s) was only used for goods traffic.

There is nothing in the account which rules it out being late-night movement of obsolete rolling stock - in fact the slow progress of the train indicates it was taking a cautious approach to the run-down state of the line, and perhaps of the passenger coaches.

View attachment 67551
View attachment 67552

<pedant mode>That would be the Great EASTERN line from King's Lynn to Ely.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I just flicked through Railway Ghosts & Phantoms and found just one story from Norfolk, relating to the sighting of a supposedly phantom passenger train at West Dereham, at 3am on a line which at the time (mid 1950s) was only used for goods traffic.

There is nothing in the account which rules it out being late-night movement of obsolete rolling stock - in fact the slow progress of the train indicates it was taking a cautious approach to the run-down state of the line, and perhaps of the passenger coaches.

View attachment 67551
View attachment 67552

Intriguing...!

The line remained open to serve a sugar refinery:

https://www.railscot.co.uk/companies/D/Downham_and_Stoke_Ferry_Railway/

Found this snippet:

"At Abbey and West Dereham, a privately owned line, the Wissington Light Railway, branched off. It opened c. 1905, mostly closed in 1957,[7]and finally closed in 1982.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downham_and_Stoke_Ferry_Railway

https://www.klmagazine.co.uk/articles/wissington-light-railway

One possibility was the the line was used as a diversion due to engineering works, but that would not have been feasible in this instance as the line did not rejoin the rail network but rather had a terminus. I can see no evidence that the Wissington line had passenger coaches, but then the actual branch line only ever had four passenger trains a day prior to 1930 and presumably none at night.

There would have been little if any signalling infrastructure on the freight-only line once passenger trains ceased, probably only at the junction with the main line, and therefore no manned signal boxes on the branch itself. This was known as 'one engine in steam' or similar, meaning that only one train could operate on the branch line at any time. The train crew would have stopped their train and operated crossing gates themselves as it would not have been economical to employ crossing keepers on such a little-used line. However, the crew of a train would had to have the branch line token in their possession, which would have been issued by the signaller at either Downham or Denver stations. To not have the token would risk a collision and end the career of the driver concerned.

I can see no purpose for running a train with passenger coaches at 03.00 on that line, however freight ran at night back then and still does today, so it is possible that empty wagons were being returned to the refinery and then the engine worked an early morning freight back to the main line. So the question is perhaps: was it passenger coaches they saw or large freight wagons?

Having said that, an engine and two freight vans would defiantly have left a tell-tale 'S" shape track in the rusty line, you can see this effect with sidings or heritage lines that haven't had a train in a while. The locomotive and wagon wheels 'snake' from side to side as they travel along the track and grind away the rust in a thin line. The witnesses maintain that no such evidence was present.

(However, the privately owned sugar refinery line was a different matter and it would be interesting to know the operating procedures at that time.)

tl;dr: freight trains have always run at night in the UK and it is possible a locomotive and two empty freight vans were sent down the line at 03.00 and then returned on an early morning loaded freight. But there were no tell-tale markings on the rusty tracks or sightings of the return train. Also the witness saw passenger carriages and not freight vans

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Rather than a goods train at 3am, it may have been an inspector's special, scheduled at night to test signal sighting (or something else in the dark). Inspector's special trains generally used passenger-rated stock, but in the 1950s it would usually be a single coach. Maybe a dedicated railway enthusiast would be able to uncover the Eastern Region inspection train that operated in this area at the time.

Perhaps the best person to ask would have been the local signalman, who would probably need to book overtime for the passage of a night train.

A good shout but I would question if there was any signalling still in situ on the actual branch once the line became freight only and rarely used (but this is only based on some knowledge of a couple of freight only lines in Devon).

Anyway, found the dedicated railway enthusiasts:

"Welcome to the Denver & Stoke Ferry Railway​

Preservation Society"​

http://dsfr.org.uk/index.html

There is a link to their Facebook page that is active and has a number of images of the line past and present

Photo of West dereham station in 1953:

https://www.francisfrith.com/west-dereham/west-dereham-abbey-station-1953_w338009

A typical freight-only line scene with neglected station buildings and whilst the signal bracket remains I can't see any signals or a signal box. There appears to be a junction in the distance, this is for the sugar railway and probably utilising hand-operated ground frames to change the points, a job undertaken by the train crew.

 

[escargot]

Let me turn out my book on Haunted York. I'm sure that's got something in it about the railway museum...

Ws listening to an edition of Raven Reads on YouTube recently which included a personal account of a visitor seeing a ghost there.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Have become a little obsessed with this West Dereham station ghost train

Looking on Google maps at the old tracked bed alignment it is evident there were very few houses that overlooked the line as it approached and passed West Dereham station, which is some distance from the village itself. One intriguing possibility is that they were living in what appears to be the former crossing keepers cottage on College road, in which case the train would have passed right under their window. Otherwise you are looking at them being some distance away which would then call into question what they could actually see at night. Curiously, I came across an old photo of a passenger train from before 1930 and it was a tank engine with two coaches, hmmm....

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Have become a little obsessed with this West Dereham station ghost train

Looking on Google maps at the old tracked bed alignment it is evident there were very few houses that overlooked the line as it approached and passed West Dereham station, which is some distance from the village itself. One intriguing possibility is that they were living in what appears to be the former crossing keepers cottage on College road, in which case the train would have passed right under their window. Otherwise you are looking at them being some distance away which would then call into question what they could actually see at night. Curiously, I came across an old photo of a passenger train from before 1930 and it was a tank engine with two coaches, hmmm....

Just to add:

When the Victorians built the railways they provided level crossing keepers with cottages if they were manning a crossing not attached to a signal box and/or a station. These are distinctive buildings and can be seen on former and existing railways (a schoolfriend lived in one). When a line was closed or reduced to freight-only then the crossing keepers were no longer needed and the cottages sold off as private houses. The train crews on freight-only lines often had to stop their train and the guard would then open and close the gates:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-r...-level-crossing-gates-manorbier-55208121.html

By the 1960s most such crossings became automated with barriers (or just flashing warning lights on the quieter branch lines). It is most likely the crossing keeper's cottage was sold off after passenger trains ceased before WW2 and became a private residence.

 

[Floyd]

Have become a little obsessed with this West Dereham station ghost train

Looking on Google maps at the old tracked bed alignment it is evident there were very few houses that overlooked the line as it approached and passed West Dereham station, which is some distance from the village itself. One intriguing possibility is that they were living in what appears to be the former crossing keepers cottage on College road, in which case the train would have passed right under their window. Otherwise you are looking at them being some distance away which would then call into question what they could actually see at night. Curiously, I came across an old photo of a passenger train from before 1930 and it was a tank engine with two coaches, hmmm....

Yes, only a few buildings.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Yes, only a few buildings.
View attachment 67671

Nice find.

Although there weren't many freight trains by the 1950s, it was a complicated site as it was a junction with the private sugar railway (often refereed to as a 'tramway') and the sidings are shown on that map with the junction off to the right. The signal box (S.B.) and signal posts (S.P.) are shown, in the later 1950s photos (will find a link) the signal box appears to be derelict and fenced off from the line. Therefore a train could have run at night without the need for signallers etc.

Incidentally, whilst it is not clear if they were referring to the train being on the British Rail branch line to Stoke Ferry or on the sugar railway, it does seem to be the former as farm workers refereed to passenger services having ceased al long time ago and only the BR line ever carried passengers.

 

[escargot]

Heard a nice one yesterday, about the first well-known railway fatality: the death of William Huskisson MP.

Seems Huskisson's spirit is supposed to haunt, not the railway line where he was quite horrifically struck by George Stephenson's Rocket, but St James' Cemetery in Liverpool where his elaborate memorial stands.

A local joke is that the shade of Huskisson walks perfectly well despite the serious injuries to his leg which was shattered in the accident.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Yes, only a few buildings.
View attachment 67671

Just to add, the buildings on the station road shown at the top of that map are stilt there, a nice old farm cottage and outbuildings. However, the cottage is not aligned with the old railway, so the view of the line would have been limited unless you hung out of the window and there were no trees obstructing the view

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Found an image of the ground frame signalling in operation at the end of Abbey and West Dereham station:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p251491321/hBC04DBA2#hbc04dba2

Looks like the very late 1960s or early '70s. I feel we are a step closer to being able to prove a freight train could have run down that line at 03.00 back in the 50s without the need for signallers or crossing keepers, however it should have left marks on the rusty tracks.

 

[eburacum]

The usual way to signal a little used freight-only branch line in 1953 was 'one engine in steam', which means only one train could enter the branch at any one time. Nowadays known as one-train-working since steam engines are less common.

If the branch was a through line, or might have more than one train scheduled to work on the line at any one time, then the line would need to be fully signalled, probably with token working to protect certain sections of line. An inspector's special could work over an otherwise unsignalled line so long as they had some assurance that no other train could enter the section. This could be as simple as a written ticket signed by the inspector and signaller.

Note that nowadays there are many, much more complex and efficient, ways of ensuring safety on an unsignalled line than in 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_(railway_signalling)

 

[eburacum]

If the train on a little-used branch line crossed a public road, the crossing would need a crossing keeper. If not then the train crew would have to operate the gates (if any) themselves. Crossing an ungated road would need someone to stop the traffic with a red flag or lamp.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

The usual way to signal a little used freight-only branch line in 1953 was 'one engine in steam', which means only one train could enter the branch at any one time. Nowadays known as one-train-working since steam engines are less common.

If the branch was a through line, or might have more than one train scheduled to work on the line at any one time, then the line would need to be fully signalled, probably with token working to protect certain sections of line. An inspector's special could work over an otherwise unsignalled line so long as they had some assurance that no other train could enter the section. This could be as simple as a written ticket signed by the inspector and signaller.

Note that nowadays there are many, much more complex and efficient, ways of ensuring safety on an unsignalled line than in 1953.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_(railway_signalling)

A crucial bit of information we are missing and unlikely to ever know is were the passenger carriage interior lights visible and if so, is that how they identified the carriages as carriages at 3am and not long wheelbase freight vans or even parcels vans?

 

[Paul_Exeter]

If the train on a little-used branch line crossed a public road, the crossing would need a crossing keeper. If not then the train crew would have to operate the gates (if any) themselves. Crossing an ungated road would need someone to stop the traffic with a red flag or lamp.

From the images we have of the line in the 1950s and 1970s it would seem the line was unstaffed and the train crew did all the work, including operating the crossing gates and changing the points by using ground frames such as in this image:

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p251491321/hBC04DBA2#hbc04dba2

No signals are visible in these photos and given the reported paucity of freight traffic it would seem likely the line was stripped of such equipment and staff after passenger services ceased

 

[eburacum]

That's why I'd expect at least one inspector to accompany any out-of-hours passenger stock movements on such a line.

 

[Carse]

Heard a nice one yesterday, about the first well-known railway fatality: the death of William Huskisson MP.

Seems Huskisson's spirit is supposed to haunt, not the railway line where he was quite horrifically struck by George Stephenson's Rocket, but St James' Cemetery in Liverpool where his elaborate memorial stands.

A local joke is that the shade of Huskisson walks perfectly well despite the serious injuries to his leg which was shattered in the accident.

Have you seen the Huskisson cenotaph beside the line at Newton-Le-Willows? It's a quite beautiful structure and grade II listed:

At the time, Rocket was being driven by Joseph Locke who was a truly great railway engineer in his own right. He was a good friend of Robert Stephenson and was also pals with Isambard Kingdom Brunel.

The original dedication plaque is on display in the National Railway Muesum:

This tablet, a tribute of personal respect and affection, has been placed here to mark the spot where on the 15th September 1830 the day of the opening of this rail road, the Right Honourable William Huskisson M.P, singled out by the decree of an inscrutable providence from the distinguished multitude that surrounded him, in the full pride of his talents and the perfection of his usefulness met with the accident that occasioned his death: which deprived England of an illustrius statesman and Liverpool of its most honored representative, which changed a moment of the noblest exultation and triumph that science and genius had ever achieved into one of desolation and mourning: and striking terror into the hearts of assembled thousands, brought home to every bosam the forgotten truth that 'in the midst of life we are in death'

 

[Paul_Exeter]

So the manned crossings on this line were discontinued the year after passenger services ceased as I had suspected, but it gets better than that:

"In 1931 LNER obtained permission to reclassify the entire branch line as a light railway. This removed the requirement for manned crossings, cattle grids were introduced in their place, there were warning signs also, trains were restricted to daylight use and subjected to a speed limit of 10mph within 200yds of the crossings."

https://www.stokeferry.com/2003/08/the-denver-stoke-ferry-railway/

So under the light railway conditions from 1931 trains were not allowed to run after dark: ghost train or time-slip 1 skeptics 0

 

[kesavaross]

I just flicked through Railway Ghosts & Phantoms and found just one story from Norfolk, relating to the sighting of a supposedly phantom passenger train at West Dereham, at 3am on a line which at the time (mid 1950s) was only used for goods traffic.

There is nothing in the account which rules it out being late-night movement of obsolete rolling stock - in fact the slow progress of the train indicates it was taking a cautious approach to the run-down state of the line, and perhaps of the passenger coaches.

On the railways all movements of any type of stock are always published in advance in a small booklet form that comes out every week called the WON, weekly operating notice, which had been the system used from at least since WW2.

 

[DrPaulLee]

There was a follow up on the west Dereham Facebook page:

 

[eburacum]

So under the light railway conditions from 1931 trains were not allowed to run after dark: ghost train or time-slip 1 skeptics 0

It also mentions that traffic on the line increased during the war years, so much so that there were operational problems.

During the second war, in their drive to increase farm production, the Ministry of Agriculture reclaimed 10,000 acres of derelict fenland and, in conjunction with LNER, improved the condition of the railways and roads in the area. In 1941, they reopened the light railway south of the factory. The increase in farm production put further demands on the line. After the war there were operational problems due to a shortage of serviceable locos and rolling stock.

So perhaps there were attempts to increase the frequency of traffic movements in the early 50s, including movements in the dark.

 

[eburacum]

possibly the engine with two coaches was sent to pull it back on the line?

Interesting idea.
A breakdown train with re-railing equipment would usually include at least one vehicle of coaching stock, which carried their tools and messing facilities and sometimes acted as accommodation on a long job. The witness might not have noticed the breakdown crane, and it may not even have been included if the derailed vehicles could be re-railed using jacks. This might even have been sent down the line at night, so long as any level crossings were adequately protected.

 

[kesavaross]

Interesting idea.
A breakdown train with re-railing equipment would usually include at least one vehicle of coaching stock, which carried their tools and messing facilities and sometimes acted as accommodation on a long job. The witness might not have noticed the breakdown crane, and it may not even have been included if the derailed vehicles could be re-railed using jacks. This might even have been sent down the line at night, so long as any level crossings were adequately protected.

I would have thought people in the village would have noticed something as large as a breakdown crane going down the line along with the tender pulling it and the re railing wagons. It would have also had to come back up the line. As well as that, it wouldn't have been done at night time.