Roman Britain: New Findings & Discoveries

[Floyd]

My first thought was 'that would make an amazing ornamental planter.'

I may have been out in the garden a bit too much lately.

I'm wondering if the holes had coloured glass/ceramics in them?

 

[cycleboy2]

Any ideas?

Roman object that baffled experts to go on show at Lincoln Museum​

A mysterious Roman artefact found during an amateur archaeological dig is going on public display in Lincolnshire for the first time.

The object is one of only 33 dodecahedrons ever found in Britain, and the first to have been discovered in the Midlands.
It was found in Norton Disney, near Lincoln, in the summer of 2023.

The artefact is also one of the largest ever found, measuring about 3in (8cm) tall and weighing half a pound (245g).
The 12-sided object was unearthed by a group of local volunteers.


The group of volunteers plans to return to the area where the dodecahedron was found in the hope of unearthing more clues
Richard Parker, secretary of the Norton Disney History and Archaeology Group, said it was a "privilege to have handled" the object, thought to have been buried about 1,700 years ago.

However, he said: "Despite all the research that has gone into our dodecahedron, and others like it, we are no closer to finding out exactly what it is and what it might have been used for.

"The imagination races when thinking about what the Romans may have used it for. Magic, rituals or religion - we perhaps may never know.

"What we do know is the Norton Disney dodecahedron was found on the top of a hill in a former large pit of some kind. It seems it was deliberately placed there."

The mysterious objects date back as far as the 1st Century. Some experts believe they were possibly linked to Roman rituals or religion, but there are no references to them in any Roman texts.

The volunteers plan to return to the area where the dodecahedron was found in the hope of unearthing more clues.
The Norton Disney dodecahedron, which featured in a recent episode of the BBC Show Digging for Britain, will be on display at Lincoln Museum as part of the city's Festival of History from Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-68908558

It has been suggested that it's a knitting device (though not everybody's convinced).

Escargot posted this link a few years ago on another thread.
https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...useum-objects-devices-etc.67470/#post-2318664

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Any ideas?

Roman object that baffled experts to go on show at Lincoln Museum​

A mysterious Roman artefact found during an amateur archaeological dig is going on public display in Lincolnshire for the first time.

The object is one of only 33 dodecahedrons ever found in Britain, and the first to have been discovered in the Midlands.
It was found in Norton Disney, near Lincoln, in the summer of 2023.

The artefact is also one of the largest ever found, measuring about 3in (8cm) tall and weighing half a pound (245g).
The 12-sided object was unearthed by a group of local volunteers.


The group of volunteers plans to return to the area where the dodecahedron was found in the hope of unearthing more clues
Richard Parker, secretary of the Norton Disney History and Archaeology Group, said it was a "privilege to have handled" the object, thought to have been buried about 1,700 years ago.

However, he said: "Despite all the research that has gone into our dodecahedron, and others like it, we are no closer to finding out exactly what it is and what it might have been used for.

"The imagination races when thinking about what the Romans may have used it for. Magic, rituals or religion - we perhaps may never know.

"What we do know is the Norton Disney dodecahedron was found on the top of a hill in a former large pit of some kind. It seems it was deliberately placed there."

The mysterious objects date back as far as the 1st Century. Some experts believe they were possibly linked to Roman rituals or religion, but there are no references to them in any Roman texts.

The volunteers plan to return to the area where the dodecahedron was found in the hope of unearthing more clues.
The Norton Disney dodecahedron, which featured in a recent episode of the BBC Show Digging for Britain, will be on display at Lincoln Museum as part of the city's Festival of History from Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-68908558

Interesting stuff and also a little surprised (and pleased) that archaeologists still use imperial measurements (inches and pounds)

 

[catseye]

I'm wondering if the holes had coloured glass/ceramics in them?

Wouldn't there be traces of this if there were? Also grooves around the apertures to fit the glass into (like the grooves around window frames)?

 

[Analogue Boy]

The best description of this I’ve come across is a hand knitting machine. There’s a video of someone making woolly gloves on one.

The craft is practised today with Spool Knitting. https://club.chicacircle.com/how-to-make-your-own-spool-knitter/

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

Any ideas?

Roman object that baffled experts to go on show at Lincoln Museum​

A mysterious Roman artefact found during an amateur archaeological dig is going on public display in Lincolnshire for the first time.

The object is one of only 33 dodecahedrons ever found in Britain, and the first to have been discovered in the Midlands.
It was found in Norton Disney, near Lincoln, in the summer of 2023.

The artefact is also one of the largest ever found, measuring about 3in (8cm) tall and weighing half a pound (245g).
The 12-sided object was unearthed by a group of local volunteers.


The group of volunteers plans to return to the area where the dodecahedron was found in the hope of unearthing more clues
Richard Parker, secretary of the Norton Disney History and Archaeology Group, said it was a "privilege to have handled" the object, thought to have been buried about 1,700 years ago.

However, he said: "Despite all the research that has gone into our dodecahedron, and others like it, we are no closer to finding out exactly what it is and what it might have been used for.

"The imagination races when thinking about what the Romans may have used it for. Magic, rituals or religion - we perhaps may never know.

"What we do know is the Norton Disney dodecahedron was found on the top of a hill in a former large pit of some kind. It seems it was deliberately placed there."

The mysterious objects date back as far as the 1st Century. Some experts believe they were possibly linked to Roman rituals or religion, but there are no references to them in any Roman texts.

The volunteers plan to return to the area where the dodecahedron was found in the hope of unearthing more clues.
The Norton Disney dodecahedron, which featured in a recent episode of the BBC Show Digging for Britain, will be on display at Lincoln Museum as part of the city's Festival of History from Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-68908558

These have always fascinated me, I saw somewhere one theory was they were used for knitting gloves

 

[Aydee_Aitchdee]

My first thought was 'that would make an amazing ornamental planter.'

I may have been out in the garden a bit too much lately.

I just found the absolutely brilliant "How To Be A Gardener" and now I'm a Titchmarsher

 

[maximus otter]

It has been suggested that it's a knitting device (though not everybody's convinced).

Escargot posted this link a few years ago on another thread.
https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...useum-objects-devices-etc.67470/#post-2318664

lnteresting, though the fact that they have been found in sizes from 1.6” to 4.3” would seem odd considering that human hands are not that variable in size.

We have examples of Roman textiles: is there anything in their construction that might suggest that a dodecahedron was involved in their manufacture?

Wikipedia mentions that they have often been found in coin hoards, “…providing evidence that their owners either considered them valuable objects, or believed their only use was connected with coins.”

maximus otter

 

[Floyd]

Also grooves around the apertures to fit the glass into (like the grooves around window frames)?

Well there are grooves (to my eyes anyway).

 

[Steven]

I've read that the Romans were obsessed with dice games, so I reckon it's a dice-holder...thingy.

 

[hunck]

I heard an archeologist connected to the museum talking about it this morning on R4. It’s made of a copper alloy & carefully welded together. 120 of them have been found mainly in Europe, 32 of them in the UK & it’s one of the largest. There’s nothing written about them in Roman records anywhere. He’s dubious about the wool theory but doesn’t have a favourite.

 

[eziofan]

I think its some sort of gaming device. Imagine: You have five or so balls/coins/tiddlywinks/whatever. You roll the device across the floor/table. When it come to rest you have 3 holes facing you and one on top. Each hole has a different score related to size. Try to throw the your token into whichever hole you fancy and see what score you get.
As good as any other theory I reckon!

 

[Steven]

For some reason, I think presence of the small holes (one is pictured on the right of the image above) have knackered my learned and highly cerebral 'dice thingy' theory.

Perhaps a piece of wood or metal was routinely placed through these smaller holes?

 

[Stormkhan]

Might it be used to measure out portions of spaghetti?

 

[SimonBurchell]

View attachment 76270

Perhaps a piece of wood or metal was routinely placed through these smaller holes?

I wonder if the holes on opposing faces are the same size, or different? It does look like some kind of measuring tool.

 

[Sid]

I wonder if the holes on opposing faces are the same size, or different? It does look like some kind of measuring tool.

I had the same thought, but apparently the opposing holes (according to the text I read) are different sizes.
It seems logical that what ever you put in one side or the other, it would give a reduction in size measurement on the opposing side. However, that doesn't explain why it has metal nodes on each of the corners does it. . . unless, it's a way to lock together two of these measures on to two ends of separate poles for some reason, like it's function might be a way of matching up two different sizes/sized poles, top and bottom with alternative sized circles/holes, for whatever reason that could be used for?
Here's one Idea I had. . . to join together two poles with different functions - like stretching a covering on wooden poles, the difference in sizes depicts which pole goes where, and at each joint corner one of these links would hold them together?(That's just my off-the-cuff quick theory!)
*Something like this:

*Similar in operation to this ball connection gadget.

 

[Steven]

If each hole's inlet and outlet don't correspond in terms of size, that arguably narrows the field of possible solutions a little.

Also...the little bobble-type things are a sort-of clue. I mean, they aren't exactly decorative, and so these most likely had a functional purpose; even if only as a steadying device for the whole thing.

 

[Salmonellus]

If each hole's inlet and outlet don't correspond in terms of size, that arguably narrows the field of possible solutions a little.

Also...the little bobble-type things are a sort-of clue. I mean, they aren't exactly decorative, and so these most likely had a functional purpose; even if only as a steadying device for the whole thing.

Your mentioning the knobs triggered a memory, and gave rise to a train of thought that ended with the daftest suggestion for the purpose of the dodecahedra that I've ever heard of.

First, the shape of the dodecahedra - with the knobs. Doesn't it remind you of a virus? Here's a picture of a virus from Wikipedia.

Compare that with a typical dodecahedron:

That's not an isolated example, by the way. A lot of viruses are that shape. Wikipedia tells us:

"Icosahedral: Most animal viruses are icosahedral or near-spherical with chiral icosahedral symmetry. A regular icosahedron is the optimum way of forming a closed shell from identical subunits. "

Now here's my fantasy. A couple of thousand years ago a Roman was abducted by aliens. During the conversation the Roman brought up the question "what causes disease, anyway?" The response was a quick image of a regular icosahedral virus, and some comment on the fact that viruses latch onto specific structures in their animal hosts, and that these linkages are very specific. The viral structures had to 'fit' the shape of the host proteins.

After the Roman was returned , he or she thought about this concept of a virus, and commissioned a model. The model was dodecahedral, because who can tell an icosahedron from a dodecahedron at a quick glance? The corner knobs were obviously important, so they were added. The specific linkages were expressed as holes of different diameters. Accompanying the brass model was a set of wooden dowels of different diameters, which could be tried in the various holes, but only one would fit neatly.

So the purpose of the models - they were a medical teaching aid meant to convey a jumbled memory of how a virus works.

Seriously, it's so obvious that I'm amazed nobody has thought of it before!

 

[Steven]

"Christus, Steve rursus est cum sua idea stolida alea..."


My 'dice' idea is nagging away at me but I suspect I'm completely off-base. Anyway...

'A teetotum (or T-totum) is a form of spinning top most commonly used for gambling games. It has a polygonal body marked with letters or numbers, which indicate the result of each spin. Usage goes back to (at least) the ancient Greeks and Romans, with the popular put-and-take gambling version going back to medieval times.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotum

---

Incidentally, how interesting this is:

'Late Medieval card games included: Flux, Plunder, Pillage, Triumph, Condemnation, Honours, Cuckoldry, Torment, and Who Wins Loses.'

(Source: The Perfect Prince by Ann Wroe)

 

[Sid]

If each hole's inlet and outlet don't correspond in terms of size, that arguably narrows the field of possible solutions a little.

Also...the little bobble-type things are a sort-of clue. I mean, they aren't exactly decorative, and so these most likely had a functional purpose; even if only as a steadying device for the whole thing.

If twine, or similar was tied around the outside corners (via using the knobbly balls) of the dodecahedron connector, to hold the stretched covering tightly so that it could not come apart, then it's a possible reason for them being there.

 

[Frideswide]

Accompanying the brass model was a set of wooden dowels of different diameters, which could be tried in the various holes, but only one would fit neatly.

it's a sorting toy! I had a wee bench with holes and appropriately shaped bricks to be hammered in to the correct one. Except that I carefully and over several months rubbed the blocks down on the rough brick of the garden wall and then they could all go through any holes. I was so proud that I had solved the problem...

 

[Mythopoeika]

it's a sorting toy! I had a wee bench with holes and appropriately shaped bricks to be hammered in to the correct one. Except that I carefully and over several months rubbed the blocks down on the rough brick of the garden wall and then they could all go through any holes. I was so proud that I had solved the problem...

You mean the Roman artefact is one of these?

Maybe!

 

[Mythopoeika]

I think it's probably a dildo-sizing tool and stand for drying out dildos after washing.

 

[ramonmercado]

They were a bit sluggish about establishing the nature of the dye.

Roman snail dye found in UK for first time​

Frank Giecco
About 12,000 snails were needed to make two grams of the precious pigment in Roman times, archaeologists said

A rare dye made from snails for the robes of the Roman elite almost 2,000 years ago has been unearthed at a cricket club.

The chunk of Tyrian purple, roughly the size of a ping pong ball, was dug up at Carlisle Cricket Club as part of ongoing yearly excavations.

A Roman bathhouse was discovered at the site in 2017 and in the last three years 2,000 items including pottery, weapons, coins and semi-precious stones have been found.

Lead archaeologist Frank Giecco said the find was of "international significance" and the first time the precious pigment had been discovered in the UK.

Excavations at the site, discovered in 2017, have unearthed weapons, pottery and signet ring gems

Mr Giecco said the pigment was worth more than gold and would have been used to dye the clothes of figures in the imperial court and the "highest echelons" of society.

He said it was made from the glands of marine snail and about 12,000 were needed to obtain less than 2g of pigment.

"The collection of the snails and processing of the glands would have been very time-consuming, " Mr Giecco said, adding: "Hence the reason it is so expensive. It was used in ancient Greek and Roman wall paintings, as well as used as a dye in textiles."

The dye, which was mixed with beeswax to preserve it, was discovered at the site in October. However, it has taken several months of chemical analysis to verify that it is purple Tyrian.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjje132jvygo

 

[Frideswide]

They were a bit sluggish about establishing the nature of the dye.

what a fabulous find! and Tyrian purple really was the stuff of fable and legend.

As is byssus. Wikipedia entry here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_silk

Except that, delightfully, both are real

PS I see what you did in the quote above.

 

[Sid]

They were a bit sluggish about establishing the nature of the dye.

Roman snail dye found in UK for first time​

Frank Giecco
About 12,000 snails were needed to make two grams of the precious pigment in Roman times, archaeologists said

A rare dye made from snails for the robes of the Roman elite almost 2,000 years ago has been unearthed at a cricket club.

The chunk of Tyrian purple, roughly the size of a ping pong ball, was dug up at Carlisle Cricket Club as part of ongoing yearly excavations.

A Roman bathhouse was discovered at the site in 2017 and in the last three years 2,000 items including pottery, weapons, coins and semi-precious stones have been found.

Lead archaeologist Frank Giecco said the find was of "international significance" and the first time the precious pigment had been discovered in the UK.

Excavations at the site, discovered in 2017, have unearthed weapons, pottery and signet ring gems

Mr Giecco said the pigment was worth more than gold and would have been used to dye the clothes of figures in the imperial court and the "highest echelons" of society.

He said it was made from the glands of marine snail and about 12,000 were needed to obtain less than 2g of pigment.

"The collection of the snails and processing of the glands would have been very time-consuming, " Mr Giecco said, adding: "Hence the reason it is so expensive. It was used in ancient Greek and Roman wall paintings, as well as used as a dye in textiles."

The dye, which was mixed with beeswax to preserve it, was discovered at the site in October. However, it has taken several months of chemical analysis to verify that it is purple Tyrian.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cjje132jvygo

In other words, they had to shell-out a lot in order to purchase that stuff!

 

[Analogue Boy]

Perhaps it was like a swiss army knife? A general Roman multi-use trading tool that had holes for grading fruit sizes, held candles of various sizes, produced hand-knitted woollen tubes and could also be used to weave gold wire chains. What if they used it to just blow bubbles?