Shark Attacks

Schwadevivre

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Why should a shark be treated differently from any other maneater?
So tigers (kill more people in India than sharks kill in Australia every year), hippos and elephants should not be protected?

The point is the vulnerability species not their capacity to kill. If mackerel were vulnerable then they should not be taken; just as cod were protected in the North Sea, the Grand Banks and round Iceland or tuna are protected in the Mediterranean. You entirely missed my point about the porbeagle, I enjoy eating them but I do not grudge their protected status.

Humans indulging in voluntary activities are free to place themselves in danger from those activities; whether the activity is climbing, cave diving and camera safari or not just swimming or surfing. Swimming and surfing in the ocean places you at risk not just from sharks but also from irukandji, blue ring octopus, stone fish, rip currents, undertows and surf breaks. If you wish to protect humans by culling sharks then you should also cull irukandji, blue ring octopus and stone fish; you should also desire the engineering of designated swimming and surfing beaches by eliminating big breakers, placing sea bed baffles to eliminate undertow and rip currents. Whilst you are at it you might also want to eliminate tides so that kids who indulge in tombstoning don't kill and cripple themselves on the sea floor.

Regarding the value of human life - it is precious to me; but because of that I also value the fact that I and others are free to indulge in risk-taking without some petty minded nanny trying to eliminate that risk. When I briefly indulged in caving (spelunking) I did not expect the crawls to be enlarged or greased or the weather to be engineered to eliminate the risk of underground flooding any more than I wanted there to be steel braces stopping rock falls and airbags at the bottom of vertical descents.

The fact people are ignorant of the risks of their chosen leisure activity is not an excuse to treat those people as toddlers and remove all risk.
 

ramonmercado

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Tigers which stray into inhabited areas are often killed before they manage to kill humans. The same is true for bears and wolves.

Swimming close to a beach is not in of itself a dangerous activity.

Caves and areas with riptides can be avoided, people make a conscious choice to indulge in dangerous activities.

A shark which comes close to a beach is a different situation. Children should become shark fodder just because they choose to take a dip.

Sharks can be protected without encouraging them to be maneaters.
 

Monstrosa

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People choosing to swim in the sea in Australia are indulging in a dangerous activity.
Surely the best way to protect both people and sharks is to keep them well apart?
Exclusion zones can be created by using shark nets and spotter boats.
 

ramonmercado

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People choosing to swim in the sea in Australia are indulging in a dangerous activity.
Surely the best way to protect both people and sharks is to keep them well apart?
Exclusion zones can be created by using shark nets and spotter boats.
I already suggested that earlier in the thread but if it doesn't work then humans must come first.

I suggest we agree to disagree.
 

Schwadevivre

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Tigers which stray into inhabited areas
The majority of tiger kills are in the forests; tigers entering towns and villages in India are incredibly rare and they are usually scared away by noise and fire.

in the US and Canada bears, cougars ans wolves are normally darted and transported away from towns.

Sharks do not stray into inhabited areas - humans stray into their areas.

Swimming close to a beach is where the rip currents get you, what is more people ignore warnings; sometimes there is no warning as the strength of a rip can depend on sea conditions miles away; for example the height of the surf in Cornwall can be set by a storm in mid-Atlantic. Rips can develop on beaches with no previous history as they depend on the conformation of the sea bed - which is subject to unpredictable change.

Swimming close to a beach is where stonefish, irukandji and weevers sting you; swimming close to a beach is where a saltie can take you in the Northern Territory.

If a shark is close to a beach your kids should not be in the water - indeed it can be argued that kids should not be swimming on a beach without a shark net anyway - any more than in warm climates they should be in the water without swim shoes because of stonefish, weevers and cone snails.

I do not expect you to understand the arguments that I and others have made; all we can do is hope to stop people with little background knowledge assuming that swimming at a beach (or river) is a safe activity - it is not and, probably, never has been. If people want to avoid the risks associated with swimming in the wild then they should stick to pools with wave generators rather than culling already endangered species.
 

ramonmercado

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You are rather arrogant.

I understand you, I merely disagree with you.

Basically you are saying that people should never swim off a beach. Imho the water off a beach is a human area, sharks stray into it.

You think otherwise, but your opinions like mine are just that: opinions. They are not laws of nature.

On that note I suggest we agree to disagree.
 

Schwadevivre

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Basically you are saying that people should never swim off a beach.
No, I am saying and have said that swimming on a beach is a risky activity and people are free to indulge in activities of high, medium and low risk as they see fit. Please do not place words into my mouth.
Imho the water off a beach is a human area, sharks stray into it.
Well you are free to your opinion, just be aware that on this board at least it appears to be a minority opinion.
 

ramonmercado

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No, I am saying and have said that swimming on a beach is a risky activity and people are free to indulge in activities of high, medium and low risk as they see fit. Please do not place words into my mouth.

Well you are free to your opinion, just be aware that on this board at least it appears to be a minority opinion.
But you have said that the waters off a beach are shark territory. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not the only one on this thread who believes that people come before sharks and I won't be shouted down.

Now, once again, I suggest we agree to disagree.
 

Schwadevivre

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What is your point?

Indian forests are the domain of tigers.

African Rivers are the domain of hippopotamuses.

Queensland swamps are the domain of Salt Water Crocs

The animals are part of the risks associated with an environment and I have nowhere said that we cannot visit those places. Indeed I have said, explicitly, that I value humans so highly that I believe they should be allowed to take risks if they desire. I also believe that, given the correct information, it is entirely possible for a human to assess those risks, for there are benefits to accepting risk and benefits to declining it.

Nowhere have I said that animal life is more important than human life but I do believe that humans should avoid killing endangered animals unnecessarily, the point I was making about the porbeagle shark. There is no benefit to humanity in taking such risks with the environment and the environment includes the creatures within it. On this planet humans are the apex predators; in the Holocene we have driven many species to extinction, not by killing all members by our own hand but by reducing the numbers sufficiently to make the species unsustainable.

Now to your charges against other board members that they are shouting you down. Sorry, but offering facts specific examples and reasons for their stance is not shouting you down, it is showing to those who wish to be informed that your arguments are flawed, not thought through and irrational. Indeed your ideas are injurious both to the environment and to the ability of humans to assess risk.

As for arrogance, the charge you specifically level at myself, it is yourself who, without any support in this thread, is assuming your unfounded arguments have value. You have offered no evidence just unsupported assertion.
 

ramonmercado

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Can't you just agree to disagree?

Must you bully your opponents into silence?

Your opinions are like mine, just opinions. They are not laws of nature.

For the third time I suggest we agree to disagree.
 

Schwadevivre

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If you agree not to issue egregious insults to other board members.
 

ramonmercado

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If you agree not to issue egregious insults to other board members.
If board members suggest that shark attack victims deserve Darwin Awards then they will be responded to in kind.

We disagree ,I think, as to whether waters off beaches in say Perth or Sydney are the domain of sharks or humans.

We agree, I think, that all measures short of culling should be taken to discourage sharks from venturing close to the beach and that people should not enter the water after a shark has been spotted.

Your earlier comments along with those of Monstrosa led me to believe that you cared little if humans were attacked by sharks. I accept I was wrong in this belief and withdraw the assertions. Apologies.

Now for the fourth time lets just agree to disagree.
 

curiousgeorge

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I think people are going to agree to disagree on this topic !
Where I have been on holiday a few times there are Sharks, we are told not to swim in certain areas... mailnly a rocky bay where surfers go - where the sharks are on the Island. Do people take notice - no, not everyone , a surfer got his leg bitten by a tiger shark about two years ago. To me thats not the sharks fault. Humans do not live in water sharks do. The australian government have this on the website http://www.environment.gov.au/marine/marine-species/sharks
Shark attack
Many Australians are concerned about the risk of shark attack. However, fatal shark attacks occur relatively infrequently in Australian waters - over the last 50 years there have been 53 fatal attacks, which is approximately one fatal attack per year.

There are some easy and commonsense precautions to take that can help reduce the risk of a shark attack. This risk minimisation advice is reproduced from the Australian Shark Attack File.

  1. Swim at beaches that are patrolled by Surf Life Savers.
  2. Do not swim, dive or surf where dangerous sharks are known to congregate.
  3. Always swim, dive or surf with other people.
  4. Do not swim in dirty or turbid water.
  5. Avoid swimming well offshore, near deep channels, at river mouths or along drop-offs to deeper water.
  6. If schooling fish start to behave erratically or congregate in large numbers, leave the water.
  7. Do not swim with pets and domestic animals.
  8. Look carefully before jumping into the water from a boat or wharf.
  9. Do not swim a dusk or at night.
  10. Do not swim near people fishing or spear fishing.
  11. If a shark is sighted in the area leave the water as quickly and calmly as possible.
 

Yithian

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I know rules often need to state the obvious, but numbers two and eleven are probably quite unnecessary - although 'calmly' could be a challenge.
 

ramonmercado

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A 13-year-old boy was killed by a shark while surfing off the French island of Reunion in the Indian Ocean.

He was surfing in an off-limits area when the shark attacked him and bit off his arms, legs and a section of his stomach.

Rescuers arrived at the scene quickly, but the severity of the injuries meant he could not be saved.

This was the island's seventh shark-related death since 2011 – although there have been 16 attacks in area in this timeframe. ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...shark-bit-his-arms-and-legs-off-10170754.html
 

ramonmercado

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A surfer was fighting for his life on Saturday after being mauled by a shark in Australia's south, police said, with onlookers claiming the animal swam off with his leg in its mouth.

The man was surfing at Fishery Bay in Port Lincoln National Park, some 245 kilometres (150 miles) west of Adelaide, when the shark attacked him.

"The man sustained life-threatening injuries and was transported to Port Lincoln Hospital," South Australia state police said, adding in a later update that he was in a critical condition with "serious leg injuries".

The Adelaide Advertiser newspaper said about a dozen surfers were in the water at the time and cited an onlooker as seeing a great white shark swimming away with the man's leg and board.

"The shark came in and bit his leg off and the guys helped him in and carried him up the cliff," the onlooker said. ...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/man-fighting-for-life-after-shark-attack-in-australia/ar-BBiEyhX
 

ramonmercado

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A 16-year-old boy and a 13-year-old girl lost their left arms and suffered other serious injuries in separate shark attacks in Oak Island, North Carolina, authorities said Sunday night.

The teens, who weren't identified, were upgraded from critical to fair condition after surgery and were stable at New Hanover Regional Medical Center in Wilmington, said Martha Harlan, a spokeswoman for the hospital. The girl's left arm was amputated below the elbow, and she suffered lower leg tissue damage, Harlan said, while the boy's left arm was amputated below the shoulder. ...

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...w&hootPostID=500f29889948950c5878bd622e0b2bea
 

ramonmercado

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Australian surfer Mick Fanning was unharmed after being attacked by a shark during the J-Bay Open on Jeffreys Bay in South Africa. The competition was suspended following the incident.

Fanning was able to protect himself from the shark and swim away, and was quickly picked up by a competition official on a jet ski.

Fanning said after making it back to safety that he was “waiting for the teeth.”

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ring-a-competition-in-south-africa/ar-AAdd5Sz

Vid at link.
 

Loquaciousness

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THIS is why I only swim in swimming pools - jelly fish, sharks, sea urchins, excrement, it's all in the oceans.
 

Mythopoeika

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THIS is why I only swim in swimming pools - jelly fish, sharks, sea urchins, excrement, it's all in the oceans.
The last one on that list can occasionally be found in public swimming pools.
 

Naughty_Felid

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The last one on that list can occasionally be found in public swimming pools.
Not encountered a shark but was swimming one day and looked down to see a pretty big stingray underneath me. He swam one way and I got the f*ck out the other way.
 

McAvennie

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We went snorkelling while out at the Barrier Reef, and while in the water I was fully aware that I was on a shark's dinner plate and would deserve no sympathy if eaten or nibbled.

It was probably the most amazing and exhilarating thing I've ever done, but also the absolutely most terrifying ten minutes of my life... that was all I lasted before getting back on the boat.

Maybe I'm just a wimp but 'the deep' and all that lurks down there just absolutely terrifies me.
 

Mythopoeika

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Maybe I'm just a wimp but 'the deep' and all that lurks down there just absolutely terrifies me.
It puts the fear in me too. There are so many creatures in the sea that can eat you or poison you.
 

ramonmercado

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Surf champion Mick Fanning's mum watched "terrified" on live television as her son was attacked by a shark in South African waters.

The Australian surfer, 34, was competing at an event in Jeffreys Bay in the Eastern Cape on Sunday when a black fin appeared behind him.

He punched and kicked the shark and was soon rescued by a jet-ski.

"I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I thought we'd lost him," his mum Elizabeth Osborne told ABC News.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-33591295
 

Mungoman

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There are certain situations to observe when swimming at Australian beachs that were taught to me as a callow youth, by the old diggers who searched for beach worms.

Fish school, sharks follow - don't swim while fish are schooling.

Fish school in autumn, winter and early spring.

Where there are seals, there are sharks - don't swim where there is a history of seals.

If you're in a rip, don't struggle, go with it.

If you're in a rip at a patrolled beach, don't struggle - stick an arm up in the air.

The majority of rips will bring you back to the beach - don't struggle.

Where there are gutters, there are rips - don't swim in gutters.

Gutters can be seen from the sand hills, look for blue areas in the surf.

Water too murky to see blue areas, look for flat areas in the surf - surf doesn't break over deep water.

Half the beach gone, expect drop offs in shallow water.

Going snorkelling - expect to see sharks.

Going spearfishing - expect to see sharks.

Warm water out of season- expect sharks.

Walking on seagrass - expect razor fish.

Walking in shallow water over reefs - expect Bullroutes, stargazers, stone fish and blue ringers.

Pick up a big shell - expect blue ringers.

Swim in a lake with access to the sea - expect bull sharks.

Going to Queensland, top end or north of twenty four degrees south - swim in a pool.


Australia is a 7,692,024 km² wild life safari park- don't be surprised by what you see.


P.S. I reckon Mick was very bloody lucky.
 

rynner2

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"The majority of rips will bring you back to the beach - don't struggle."

The advice over here is to swim at right angles to the rip (ie, parallel to the shore). When you're back in surf, head for the beach.

(I'd prefer not to wait and see if the rip brings me back. If it does, I might be dead already - if it doesn't, well, the outlook's not good!)

And always swim at a Life-guarded beach, especially if you're a visitor to the area.

EDIT: At least we don't get man-eating sharks off Cornwall. Basking sharks are huge, but they feed on krill.
 

rynner2

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Me, on overtime from the Lone CG thread! More on Rip tides:
Five people rescued from the sea off Perranporth
By WBCaroline | Posted: July 20, 2015

Five people were rescued from the sea off Perranporth at the weekend.
Their lives were saved by RNLI lifeguards after they got caught in rip tides at Perran Sands on Saturday.

...

RNLI lifeguard supervisor, Ben Gardiner said: "Rip currents can catch even the most experienced beachgoers out, so we always encourage people to put their safety first and make sure they visit an RNLI lifeguarded beach and swim between the red and yellow flags, where you'll have professional lifeguards looking out for you.
"If you get caught in a rip current, don't panic or try to swim against it; swim parallel to the shore until you're free, or put your hand in the air and shout for help. By following this advice people can make sure they have a safe and enjoyable time at the beach."

...

http://www.westbriton.co.uk/people-rescued-sea-Perranporth/story-27450098-detail/story.html
 

Loquaciousness

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Not encountered a shark but was swimming one day and looked down to see a pretty big stingray underneath me. He swam one way and I got the f*ck out the other way.
A sting ray is an elasmobranch like a shark, so can be seen as a sort of flattened shark.
 
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