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Summoning Demons

Ah Chaos magic then? If you believe it will work it will through force of will. Something I believe works. I wouldnt use a teddy though.


Mind you the old ways will be known & familiar to the demons & will be known to do what they do, it works both ways presumably. I dont know what they would make of my Bruce Campbell toy & video collection :)
 
Alistair P said:
Going back to the chainsaws and shotguns type stuff again.

Let's say I wanted to load a shotgun cartridge with stuff that would take out just about any supernatural beastie. What would you load it with? I'm looking for a universal anti-spook round here.

I'm thinking a iron pellets (made from melted down horseshoes), wooden flechettes, garlic pellets, rock salt, sage (to make a nasty smell on firing to protect the shooter), silver pellets, four leafed clovers (to improve chances of hitting the target). That kind of thing.

What else should go in the load? What've I forgotten?

Well, the powder for starters. your projectile(s) flies how? I've watched an awful number of horror films, and spent a lot of quality time with various shotguns, but as in south park, pig and elephant DNA just don't splice. Nothing you could cram into a shotgun shell will get you out of whatever crazy crapola you decide to summon up from whichever netherworld, in my humble opinion. You'd have to get rid of it in the same fashion you got it. Possibly this is just wrong thinking on my part, but really... how big is a demon? If whatever you shot it with stopped it by virtue of what ammounted to being toxic to demons, rather than by conventional wound ballistics, you'd be waaaaay better off with a big saringe filled with horseshoe dust and four leafed clovers. Even a .700 nitro express bullet is tiny relative to even a person's body, and you'd spend hundreds of thousands of dollars buying a rifle and cartridges. Firearms just don't work that way... It's totally irrational, but still, I've spent far too much time thinking about it.
 
Well, the powder for starters. your projectile(s) flies how?

Yeah, of course. But I'm going by the old gamekeepers trick of emptying the lead shot out of a standard cartridge and replacing it with rock salt, to produce a nastily painful, but non-lethal round.

As for wound size, I'm thinking that maybe a four-bore shotgun would be effective. Ever seen one of those? Enormous bastard things. They used to be useable because old style black powder didn't have as much of a kick as modern propellants.

I reckon a four-bore with a short barrel, at fairly close range, but with black powder propellent, would do the trick. It would be extremely nasty at, say, within thirty yards, which is still a better distance to be than what would be needed to get a syringe into something.

This is research for something I'm writing, btw, in case anyone is wondering. I'm not out to get a fuckoff big shotgun and lurk in Highgate Cemetary, or anything like that.
 
It is amusing that the two main kinds of responses on this thread have been "what a terribly dangerous idea" and "you actually believe in demons?!"

I have never performed a ritual evocation.
I may do in the future but I have no plans to.

For me, central to the whole issue of magic(k) is the question of whether entities have objective reality ..... and my views on this change to suit my needs.
Whilst undertaking any magic(k)al working it seems to be traditional and, in my limited experience, very helpful to thoroughly convinced that the spiritual forces, entities, intelligences or whatever are in fact totally external, objectively real "other"s.
I spend most of the rest of the time considering them to be facets of the self, archetypal constructs of the mind, denizens of the subconscious or the collective consciousness ... or something etc. which is no less fascinating a phenomenon to me.

Do let us know how your friends get on! :D
 
Well said lizard23 - this is the approach I take too. The idea someone touched on earlier that magickal consciousness is equivalent to madness is spot on. The big difference is that unlike a schizophrenic the magickian has a structure into which s/he can put the experiences that would otherwise lead to madness - well thats the idea anyway, whether it works is another thing...
 
Excuse me for interupting, but I was wondering ...
What's the difference between magic and magick, and demon and daemon?
 
IIRC Magick was a spelling to set ritual/ cermonial magic apart from conjuring tricks - I think A Crowley and or the Golden Dawn had something to do with this. Demon and Daemon I would guess Daemon is just an old way of spelling Demon.
 
Daemon is latin for devil and demon is just the modern form of the word I think, but don't quote me on that.
 
What's the difference between magic and magick, and demon and daemon?

Pretension


Edited because, when you make a one word gag, it's important to spell that word correctly.
 
I think "daemon" just seems a bit less derogatory, like somehow it doesn't have quite the baggage of "evil" connotations that "demon" has in popular language/thinking, maybe.
I would probably only use "demon" to refer to entities from the grimoires etc who are almost always refered to as such, whereas I would be inclined to use "daemon" for any other lower order entities .....

...... and judging by the number of quotation marks I just used in that paragraph I don't think I would have any trouble refering to myself as pretentious heh heh

I am not that convinced by the magic/magick thing myself, it does serve to differentiate stage magic from eg. ritual magic(k) but I like to put the k in brackets for some reason I can't really explain (possibly linked to the comment above :D)
 
Interestingly I received this this morning on a mailing list I am susbscribed to:

Greetings everyone,

I again have a ritual I hope is interesting for you. It is a lengthy and pompous one designed for beginners who don't have much ritual experience, but want to do something "big". I performed it alone and with friends, with quite considerable results, but would appreciate getting foreign opinions, as well as inspiring people for their own rituals. Should anyone bother to give some feedback, I'd be very happy. If not, I'll suppose it's alright, and be happy anyway. ;)

Best wishes and 93,
MotA

Ritual instruction follows below, the paragraphs in brackets are meant to be explanations...
-----------------------
Impersonal Evocation

The following ritual comprises the evocation of nameless, unintelligent energy from a magical sphere or world. It has been newly designed following ritual patterns developed by the magical orders of the Fraternitas Saturni, the Communitas Saturni and the Golden Dawn, and performed successfully. The design's main purpose was to make available a ritual similar to the evocation of a being in style and mode of action, but much less challenging, to less experienced occultists who do not dare do a "real" evocation yet. These people herewith get a ritual instruction for an easy wish-fulfillment evocation. Taking into consideration such a "target group", this ritual leans towards strong measures of protection, drama, and periods of rest, and group work is being encouraged. Therefore, the ritual is considerably more elaborate than would be necessary for more experienced ritualists.

Some preliminary experience with less extensive rituals is still very much recommended. Without basic techniques of concentration, visualisation and banishment given, it will be difficult, and perhaps even dangerous, to successfully perform this ritual. Furthermore, several basic terms will be used in the following ritual instruction without further explanation.

*Preparation*

In an empty, dark room of sufficient size, the pattern you see drawn blue in the picture at http://www.ritmag.info/images/unpersevoplan.jpg is marked on the ground. The inner circle should have a diameter of at least two and a half meters. If more than one mage participate in the ritual, the diameter must be longer so everyone can stand or sit comfortably. The distance between the circles could be 10 to 30 centimeters and has to be equal on all sides.

(The three circles receive different and complementing roles during the ritual. The inner one is a classical circle of protection that seperates the Inner from the Outer and prohibits flows of energy between these areas. The outer gets a role of attraction - it draws the desired energies to itself and gathers them around. The middle circles balances out the effects of the other two and prevents them from interfering with one another, i.e. it prevents the inner one from pushing the energies away from the outer one and the outer one from undermining the blockade of the inner one.)

A pentagram is drawn on some point of the three circles, but preferably close to the door of the room, pointing outward. On the opposite side and outside the circles, a mirror or a symbol of the sphere in question is positioned or put on a wall, and covered with a cloth. A small table, preferably covered with cloth, belongs into the center of the circle. According to personal taste, the room and especially the altar table may be decorated with symbols and objects that fit the desired sphere.

(The pentagram defines and protects a passageway in the circle pattern. The mirror or symbol serves as a gate for the energies that are to be summoned. The table functions as a work space on which you can deposit the various tools you will need during the ritual.)

Between the outer and middle circles, symbols that stand for the energies of the sphere, but <I> not</I> beings of the sphere, are arranged on the ground. Such symbols could be planetary symbols, numerical values calculated qabalistically, or just the name of the sphere, for example. Between the middle and inner circles, symbols, numerical values or names of beings superior to the sphere's forces are placed. These beings might be archangels or deities, for example. All symbols have their lower end pointing towards the outside and their upper end pointing towards the inside. If the tried and tested method of writing the symbols on cards and laying them on the ground is used, the cards are not placed in this preparation part, but prepositioned as a stack on the altar.

(Since no specific set of symbols is given, you will have to look for suitable ones yourself. If all else fails, create sigils. :) The outer group of symbols will support the attraction effect of the outer circle in helping to create an atmosphere that facilitates the desired energies. The inner symbols restrain the energy current you are summoning and demonstrate authority radiates from the center of this geometric structure.)

A number of candles corresponding to the to-be-evoked sphere multiplied by three (once per circle) is prepositioned. These candles will be evenly distributed on the circles during the ritual. It is very sensible to prepare marks for the positions of the candles on the ground. If possible, the inner candles should be white, the middle ones black and the outer ones of a color that fits the sphere. Alternatively, the candles can also be chosen all white or all black. To the left and right or the mirror or symbol, two candles of the same color the candles of the outer circle have
are placed. These two can be put into their places during preparation already. A white, larger candle is held ready apart from the others. Apart from this, you will need the double number of the sphere plus two in incense sticks lying ready on the altar. (Numbers, colors and incenses are to be taken from the pertinent sources or decided for individually.)

(The layout in the uppermost illustration, for example - the white dots stand for candles - would be appropriate for a Jupiter ritual, where the number is four. In this case, you'd need four white candles, four black ones, six blue ones, a large white one as well as ten incense sticks of (say) lavender. The number of the sphere will be used several times later, so it is important to find a number that can plausibly be attributed to the sphere. Numbers larger than twelve are, if possible, to be avoided for reasons of practicability.)

Furthermore, a candle extinguisher lies ready on the altar. If unavailable, a simple metal spoon can replace it. A large vessel with something to extinguish fire with (sand or water) must unconditionally be ready to hand, like under the altar. Writing equipment, a drum (or an other rhythm instrument like a rattle), a fireproof vessel - like an incense bowl or an ashtray - and a not-ticking clock are also added. Magical weapons like the staff or the dagger, if available, may be introduced at will. They do not serve a determined purpose in this ritual, however, and only
display magical power.

(Especially in important invocations such as the consecration and evocation formulas that follow, many magicians believe it is appropriate to bear some some magical instrument in one's hand. The use of the candle-extinguisher is a matter of taste - it just gives a more ceremonial touch to extinguishing candles.)

*Performance*

Introduction

The performers attend the preparations just outlined together, if possible. (All of the following text speaks of a group, but the ritual can also be performed by a single individual without any problem.) As will be explained, certain steps of the ritual are performed by individual persons representing the group. Who undertakes which of these steps should therefore be made clear prior to the ritual.

When everything is clear and ready, the large white candle is fetched from the ritual room and ritual clothing is put on outside of this room. The white candle is lit and the magicians quietly enter the ritual room with it. The circles on the ground can be ignored for now - when illuminated by a single candle, they won't be very visible anyway. At the altar, the candles destined for the outer circle are lit, as well as an equal number of incense sticks. All burning candles are placed on the altar. The large white candle is extinguished and everyone sits down on the ground. One participant speaks some poetic text describing the sphere or an invocation to it.

(This text may also be read out, no special concentration or trance is necessary. The focal point does not lie with some magical effect here, but with the psychological, preparing effect on the other participants.)

Now, all attenders go on independent trance travels into the sphere the ritual is about. One participant, preferrably experienced in being in trance states, keeps up the rhythm and watches over the other travellers. The aim of the travel is to get to know the energy of the sphere very well and perhaps receive a symbol for the individual wish everyone wants to state. After about thirty minutes - this is what the clock is here for - the rhythm is stopped, which is the signal for return.

(For the drummer, it can be relatively difficult to drum, oversee the traveling of the others and travel himself, all at the same time. For him, it might therefore be sensible to perform the travel on his own before the ritual and concentrate on his other two tasks during the ritual travel. If any of the participants do not have experience with trance traveling, it is recommended they leave the room during this time and meditate on the sphere, returning after thirty minutes.)

The writing equipment on the altar is distributed among the attenders and everyone draws a symbol for the wish the energies the group is about to summon shall fulfill for him, in privacy. When done, pocket your piece of paper. It will from now on be referred to as a pentacle. Hereupon, the writing materials are put away, the large white candle is lit again and the others are extinguished. Now, the first pause is reached and the magicians can leave the room for a while. They can take the writing materials, the drum and the clock with them, as these will not be needed anymore.

(The symbol need not be a sigil, i.e. the meaning of it needs not be forgotten. The pause is not absolutely necessary - the ritual can be completed successfully without any. Since the rite can take several hours, however, such periods of rest will more often than not be useful and reasonable with regards to your physical and mental stamina. Not even speaking of needs as simple as seeing the bathroom. :)

Consecration

When all participants are ready, they again enter the ritual room in silence and return their minds to the rite. Someone unveils the mirror or symbol. Everyone sits down around the altar and begins a meditation guided by one of the participants. The exercise centers around bringing to mind and reinforcing the protectedness, security and invulnerability of the ritual participants.

(For the guide, the challenge wih this meditation is that the effect of it is meant to be as strong as possible. The use of autogenous training is very much recommended for this.)

Someone lights the candles left and right of what is going to be the gate and adds one incense stick on each side, using the large white candle. The latter is extinguished and put on the altar. All participants get up, join hands to form a circle and close their eyes. They recall the sphere energy they have got to know during the trance travel or meditation, respectively. They first feel it in themselves, then in the other members of the circle. Finally, the circle is opened and one after the other, everyone performs the sign of the Rending of the Veil before the mirror/symbol that now becomes the gate into the sphere in question. All participants watch it and feel and visualize the energy they just felt within themselves and each other, radiating from the gate.

(At this point, a magical connection has been made, but no energy current of considerable force is flowing into the room, yet.)

Now one after the other, every magician steps before the gate and speaks an individually chosen formula of consecration, asking the powers of the sphere behind the gate for their lustration and blessing on his pentacle and any magical weapons he might have brought, concering the following magical working. While doing so, the magician holds these things towards the gate on outstretched hands. According to one's liking, this might for example sound like this: "Powers of (name of the sphere), behold these things and accept them for yourself as tools of magic for the fame of (name of the sphere)." Or, possibly, like that: "I consecrate these objects to (name of the sphere). May the power given to them help manifest the power of (name of the sphere)."

(The consecration formula is to be chosen individually by every participant in a way it honestly and wholeheartedly expresses his request, so he doesn't feel ridiculous stating it. Take your time wording it in advance and carefully consider what your view of the consecration and your approach to it are. At any rate, the gist of the consecration should be the items are connected to the power of the sphere and on the one hand are vitalized by it, on the other make it tangible and controllable.)

The large white candle is re-lit from the gate candles and put on the altar again. So are all magical tools, only the pentacles remaining in their owners' pockets. The gate candles are left burning. With this, the second period of rest is reached.

Main part

During the period of rest, all circle candles are put in their positions on the three circles. If the circle symbols have been prepared on cards, they are now spread out. If the air is still easily breathable, all remaining incense sticks are lit. When everyone is ready again, the room is entered again, but the participants remain outside of the circle. They gather themselves and recall the feeling of protectedness from the meditation.

(Now, although the circle candles have not been lit yet, the circle pattern is easily visible, and now it becomes relevant to the ritual.)

One after the other, all participants enter the center of the circle, stepping over the pentagram performing the sign of the Enterer. The circle must not be left during the ritual under any circumstances! One of the magicians picks up the large white candle. Now the one with the candle goes about the circle and all participants say "We ignite the light of protection." in unison before the one with the candle lights one of the candles of the innermost circle saying "Let there be light!". Starting at the gate and going clockwise, all candles of the inner circle are lighted this way. After this, the same procedure is done for the middle and outer circles, with the exception the formula now is "We ignite the light of balance." and "We ignite the light of (name of the sphere).", respectively. The large white candle is then extinguished.

(The mystical background of this act that all participants, most especially the igniting one, are to be aware of, is an understanding of the light principle as positive, creative energy that transcends all planes of the universe and is thus worthy of surrounding, forming and protecting the center of power - the inside of the circle.)

One of the mages present now speaks the following formula: "Light has become, illumination has come. We are illuminated. We are in the bright. About us is darkness. This is the place of mages. This is the role of mages. All power is upon us bestowed." He faces the gate and says, loudly: "The power we call forth is the one of (name of the sphere)!"

(This formula is very important for the ritual and has to be spoken loudly, clearly and confidently!)

The one who said this is first to perform the following evocation. The formula that is to be spoken consists of two parts; the first one is, like the consecration formula, an individually chosen statement. In the case of a calling for Venus powers, for example, it could be: "Trembling, I expect you, powers that connect, powers that unite. As all beings through you attract each other, I attract you, for I truly love love and will be the true channel of its force." Or, more sublimatedly: "In the name of JHVH Tzabaoth, with the help of the Elohim, through the triumph of Netzach I call forth to you, powers of Venus, part of the seventh emanation of creation. Come to me, for love uniting all opposites in the universe, love is my law." The subsequent second part of the formula is the same for all evokers and consists of a number of names of the divine principle governing that sphere, and the word "Come!", equal to the number of the sphere already used. In the example of the venus ritual just mentioned, it might be something like: "I call with seven names of the beautiful and loving goddess: Aphrodite, Babalon, Bastet, Freyja, Ishtar, Isis, Venus! Powers of Venus! Come! Come! Come! Come! Come! Come! Come!"

(Even more so than the consecration, the first part of this assertion must be a well devised statement outlining your ideas of the process so precisely you don't feel ridiculous naming them. Take into account the explicit calling comes after it - so in the first part, you should make a connection between your mental attitude towards the sphere and your calling out to it, by describing what and how you call. You must not call for any particular being!)

The whole of the formula is spoken in turn by everyone present, facing the gate. The number of formulas spoken must be at least as high as the number of the sphere - if less ritualists are present, some repeat their evocation. While one person is speaking, all others visualize with greatest intensity the energy of the sphere flowing out of the gate and unfurling in the space around the circle. The one calling should be so occupied with calling - imagining the deities and so on - that this visualization will either go without saying or be omitted.

When the calling is over, there is a little breathing time. The energies wished for are now present outside the circle and can perhaps even be seen or guessed. On any occasion, all participants now produce the pentacles from their pockets and again light the large white candle (using one of the candles from the inner circle). One of the mages collects the folded pentacles into the fireproof vessel and drips a lot of wax from the large white candle on it. The pentacles are burned while everyone is aware the tasks are this way communicated into the astral and handled there.

(With this, the called energies are "programmed" into causing the appropriate changes.)

Resignation follows. A ritual participant speaks a number of abdication formulas equal to the number of the sphere into every point of the compass. The formula could be something like: "I thank the powers of (name of the sphere). Go in peace, to do your work." If available, he carries a magical dagger or sword. The one who lighted the circle candles extinguishes them in reverse order. The circle is left backwards, over the pentagram, and the circle candles (as well as, if applicable, the cards) are put away. All participants perform the sign of the Closing of the Veil towards the gate and the gate candles are extinguished. Finally, the light from the large white candle goes out, too, and the room becomes dark.

Now the mages may leave the ritual room and change clothes. The circles, gate and altar are removed and the room is ventilated. A final banishing, using a banishing ritual and/or banishing incenses, is performed before the room is used for any other purpose.

The text of this ritual can be found at http://www.ritmag.info in German.
Thanks to Master of the Abyss for giving me permission to post this here.
 
Just edited your post to make it more readable, Liz'

Will comment when brain working zzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz...
 
Thanks - I did look at it and think "why would anyone bother reading through all that" but was too lazy to do anything about it ;)
 
Ghhaaaa you mean I read it throught the first time for nothing? Oh well ... :(

It's a very interesting piece actually, thank you for posting it (and the editing of it)
 
:eek!!!!:

I've gotta say I'm in the "you think demons really exist?" camp. Go ahead, summon one. You'd make the local headlines at least.

Do you guys mean literal demons? Like, you say a chant, stand in a circle, and this evil demon appears before you? I too, would like to see evidence of this ever happening, or being within the realm of possiblity.

Sorry, I avoid the "Esoterica" forum for this reason, its really hard for me to join the conversation without, um, dismissing everything as hogwash.
 
Piscez: It doesn't matter if a demon is a real physical being that others can see (like in Buffy) or entirely a product of the 'summoners' mind, it can still f!ck you up quite royally!

This is why it's so damn dangerous, you litterally are tapping into things which you not wot of; your own inner 'darkness'. Well unless you've already done it... :err:

Niles "Who knows what Evil Lurks in the Hearts of 'men'..." Calder
 
Summoning a demon - lets use the modern spelling

Demons either exist or they don't

If they do exist it is a very bad idea to summon one. Even a satanist might be a bit wary. Precautions, become religious - very religious - beforehand. Failing that make the deal and remember that 80 years of life will probably be forgotten within an eternity of pain.

If they do not exist somebody is screwing round with someone elses mind. Bad idea; think Brady and Hindley, Rose and Fred West. Or who were those 2 american kids?
 
Heard a first hand demon invocation account years ago , this bloke was going out with a woman who was mentally ill . She claimed it was either due to , or the cause of , a demon that infested her . She offered to show it to this bloke one night and he agreed , she then stared at the centre of the room until a black whirling shape began to appear , this gave off a very malevolent atmosphere and the bloke soon asked her to stop , which she did with no problems .
He wasn't at all into any esoteric type stuff nor had he taken any drugs ( dunno about alcohol but I wouldn't think there was any type that would make you see demons) . There was no paraphenalia involved either , just the will of the woman .
The only mundane explanation I can think of is she hypnotised him ( possibly without knowing it ) .
 
Has anybody ever been killed after calling up a demon?
Frankly, I'm sceptical.
All we have is lots of ULs.
 
Summoning a demon - lets use the modern spelling
To be honest daemons are much more modern than demons. They typically describe processes that run constantly in the background on a Unix like operating system.

I wouldn't be too worried about summoning one of those but they definitely exist.

The usage stands though. Pedantry spot over.
 
Demon and daemon were once used interchangeably. The former came to English from medieval Latin, while the latter was from classical Latin. The earliest use appears to have been in the phrase daemon of Socrates, which was his "attendant, ministering, or indwelling spirit; genius". That was in the late 14th century. It was a short time later that the term demon came to refer to "an evil spirit" by influence of its usage in various versions of the Bible. The Greek form was used to translate Hebrew words for "lords, idols" and "hairy ones (satyrs)". Wyclif translated it from Greek to English fiend or devil. This is how the evil connotation arose. By the late 16th century, the general supernatural meaning was being distinguished with the spelling daemon, while the evil meaning remained with demon. Today daemon can mean "a supernatural being of a nature intermediate between that of gods and men" or "a guiding spirit".
 
Well they are still around after the ritual (as am I, since I would not have been there anyway, as failed to be noticed by several people).

Weeellll nothing big and nasty appeared and ripped them into tiny little pits reminiscint of the people in the sluggy online comic KittensII. They did think they seem moving shadows out of the corner of their eyes and felt chills and pricklings along their skin as if something was brushing past/through them.

About the only side effect noticed were a few nights bad dreams by some of them.
 
Alistair P said:
sage (to make a nasty smell on firing to protect the shooter

If a real demon actually turns up, I don't think your hypothetical shooter is going to need the sage to make a nasty smell for him...
 
Well, now that I'm done being a total jerk while thinking about it... in terms of writing a battle with a demon, well... A hero might be limited to specially loaded shotgun shells, but... at least in the US, you can purchase 37mm launchers, which are pretty much like military 40mm launchers, except that as a civillian you have no access to the really naughty projectiles. Of course, you could stuff a hell of a lot more shamrocks and so on into a 37mm case than a 10gauge. If I'm not mistaken, they do sell an M-79 ripoff single shot one as well as a multiple, rotary drum type, and of course, an M-203 ripoff that'll hang under the barrel of your AR-15. I'm not sure if Firequest has a site or not, but I'm aware of this principally because of their annoying catalogs.
So, that'd be a badass literary demon fighter resource, because of course if you shoot a demon with a lead ball, he'll be pissed, but if you use a lead ball connected to 4 large fishing hooks by tiny chains, your 48.50 will be well spent. (or so the catalog assures me) And, umm, there are also those flamethrowing shotgun shells they have... so if you have a $2500 autoloader, here's a $15 dollar way to fuse it into a lump of slag. Might make a great story though.
 
After reading [this] summoning demons thread im fascinated. Has anyone done this? What happens? Do you see the summoned demon in a physical form? To be honest its not somthing ive even considered real before i'd love to know peoples experiances and stories on this kind of thing if any of you good folks hve the time :)
 
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They did think they seem moving shadows out of the corner of their eyes and felt chills and pricklings along their skin as if something was brushing past/through them

Exactly how I felt when I watched programs about ghosts etc when I was a child. I personaly think that this is due to anticipation and expectations than anything super natural. If I lay awake at night and start thinking about ghosts blah blah blah pretty soon I start to see things that arnt there. I cant help feeling these people wanted to see these things and that is why they saw them.
 
Bisto said:
I cant help feeling these people wanted to see these things and that is why they saw them.
But that that doesn't make them any less real... :rolleyes:
 
But what is the point if they are just figments of the imagination

:confused:
 
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