The COVID-19 (Wuhan Coronavirus) Outbreak: Conspiracy Theories & Claims

AlchoPwn

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Exceptions, yes, but unfortunately there are many exceptions.

Was just watching the daily news and as usual the later part of the show was at least 50% commercials, and the common big pharma {drug company} commercials were going strong; showing as they usually do people having 'fun' taking their drugs while quietly saying in the background there may be side effects, including heart failure and/or death - Reminded me of the old TV cigarette commercials {are you old enough to remember them?}, people partying and having fun while smoking - Of course back then they did not have to say cigarettes may cause cancer, etc. - Otherwise the drug company commercials were similar to the cigarette company commercials. A few years ago I read only the United States and New Zealand allow drug companies to advertises on TV. - In America money talks! Why do I bring this up - Do I have a conspiracy concept up my sleeve? Yes I do - Have you ever thought about the billions, maybe trillions of dollars to be made on vaccines and cures for Covid19? - Would this same big pharma go out of their way to disprove any and all palliative things that they can not
profit off of - They have done so in the past. In a World where money talks and corruption is rampant - Conspiracies are a natural response even if many prove to be invalid
Sorry, but that doesn't sound like a conspiracy to me. We have solid proof that C-19 was born in the wild, not in a lab. Labs can show that it is a natural evolution from viruses in the wild, and not cut and pasted in CRISPR. If someone can make money from producing a vaccine, perhaps they need to be paid to do it? No money for the vaccine, no roll-out of the vaccine. I can't think of a better place to spend our tax dollars frankly. I doubt there are trillions to be made from vaccine "sales" as the governments are going to want to get the vaccine produced and passed out to the population in order to get the global economy moving again. THAT is where the real money is to be made; restarting the economy safely.

As to smoking, that habit has its origins with the Native Americans, and the first European Settlers, not with US Big Tobacco. There was a time when medical science couldn't verify that tobacco was bad for you, and the habit became commonplace, and well loved. Then the statistical info that it was bad began to be collected and it mounted up until now we have health warnings. Now the question is, do you think we should take away an addict's right to buy cigarettes, and thereby create a black market, allowing organized crime to perpetuate itself in our institutions on the back of bribe money paid for on the backs of addiction?

As stated advertising has not given up at all and is using its same old tricks as cigarette advertisers of the past have done.
Wrong. Advertising Execs have been candidly interviewed and they have admitted that TV ad revenue is falling sharply, and their ability to penetrate the internet meaningfully has failed. Despite their efforts, Ad execs are not bringing in the sales revenue the way they used to. This is a new paradigm and they don't understand it. They can't deal with ad blockers.

And as for the origin of conspiracies - who knows, I suppose if I searched hard
enough I could find conspiracies on why Cain slew Able.
I hope you mean that metaphorically, because I don't accept that Cain and Abel every actually existed as people. Also, a conspiracy of one is no conspiracy, that's just a crime.

And in fact I used to have a friend obsessed with the old conspiracy theory about the Illuminati and Freemasons controlling the World. A book on the subject "Proof of a Conspiracy" dates back to the 1700s
Yeah, I have studied the history of the Know Nothing Party, and I have also read the classic The Paranoid Style in American Politics by Richard Hofstadter. I also know an awful lot about Freemasonry and its history in the USA, and about the Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria. The Feemasonic movement back in the 1700 fought hard to take power away from the corrupt European Aristocrats and from the creepy moribund Catholic Church. The Freemasons created an environment where men of all classes were treated as intellectual equals and could meet without having their thinking censored by a stupid class of inbreds with money, or by a bunch of pedophile witchdoctors with a penchant for seeing people burn if they disagreed with them. Frankly, the Freemasons were the good guys, and however bad you may think things are, they are a hell of a lot better today than they were in the 1700s. No Freemasons= no liberty, no free trade, no free speech, no US constitution, no Bill of Rights.

AlchoPwn replied: This is an unnecessarily critical view of humanity. The fact is that you can fool some of the people all of the time. These people are the problem, as they make themselves tools for psychopaths."

“Psychopaths [make] the world go around...society [is] an expression of that particular sort of madness...I've always believed society to be a fundamentally rational thing, but what if it isn't? What if it is built on insanity?”
― Jon Ronson, The Psychopath Test: A Journey Through the Madness Industry

“It strikes me profoundly that the world is more often than not a bad and cruel place.”
― Bret Easton Ellis, American Psycho

“A.I. is the perfect psychopath.”
― R.A. Delmonico
The point is, not everyone who is in power is a psychopath. We should all actively be working to ensure that psychopaths are diagnosed and withdrawn from ALL positions of responsibility imo. I am also deeply concerned that psychopathy is grossly underdiagnosed amongst women. I say this because psychopathy is presently underdiagnosed in men imo, and I have known a lot more women who behave far worse than men ever do in my experience.

Untrue - I simply post alternative views for interest and consideration- not because they have been proven true - And feel mainstream conventional views and science, especially now, should show better evidence for their actions,
especially since their actions are far from solving the Covid 19 problem. And always the skeptic, must consider if they are not in fact making it worse???
When a "skeptic" puts forwards a case without evidence, they are not being a skeptic, but a superstitious peasant. Skepticism is only valuable when it is supported by an actual foundation of evidence. If that evidence is faulty, the skeptic has a duty to withdraw their argument, not double down on their error for the sake of pride.

“People with a psychological need to believe in marvels are no more prejudiced and gullible than people with a psychological need not to believe in marvels.”
― Charles Fort
I disagree with Fort on this one. Those who have an inbuilt need to be fooled, will be fooled more often than those who are looking for the man behind the curtain. Now, I enjoy a stage magician as much as the next guy, and I am prepared to pay for the entertainment they provide, because I admire the skill they bring to the stage. Gullibility isn't a virtue. I am also not a fan of people who think that if the answer isn't in the textbook, it doesn't exist, as those guys have normally only know a single discipline. That is ultimately dogmatism, and it leads nowhere. The only way forwards is to properly and honestly apply the scientific method, without shortcuts, bias, or egotism, in the hopes of producing objective proof. With enough data and experimentation, there will be a critical mass reached where the answers will appear out of human insight.
"The Earth is a farm. We are someone else's property."- Charles Fort
Did Fort crib that from Karl Marx?
 

Lb8535

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So then what are we looking at? - Certainly not a natural phenomena; Or is it an
accidentally escaped experiment from Wuhan labs? - And I still question if
it can not be deliberate?

No Alienview. Now you are looking for competent and informed reproducible confirmation.Otherwise speculation is just self-congratulatory spouting.
 

Cochise

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I'll put this here - I'm beginning to develop my own conspiracy theory.

Please feel free to shoot it down.

AFAIK, the fastest a vaccine has been got in to production (after completing tests etc.) is 14 years. And there has never been a vaccine for a coronavirus (though there nearly was).

The government seem to be building hopes up that they will be able to mass produce a vaccine next year at the latest. That seems on the surface insane.

Possible explanations:

a) The vaccine will be a harmless placebo to reassure people that they are safe, because the disease will basically die down of its own volition. (As MERS and SARS did).

b) They already can produce a vaccine because they knew all about this in the first place and are using it as a power grab for the NWO.

c) They are ill-informed bumblers that shouldn't be left in charge of a whelk stall.

I favour c)
 
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Xanatic*

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d) They know it won't happen but need to pacify people.
 

Cochise

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d) They know it won't happen but need to pacify people.
So that would be 'lying' then? And what is the plan when it doesn't happen?

Most conspiracy theories fail under Ockham's Razor, but Ockham didn't account for stupidity. The one conspiracy I know to be true - the misinformation and cover up after Hillsborough - is marked by arrogant stupidity throughout.
 

Lb8535

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I'll put this here - I'm beginning to develop my own conspiracy theory.

Please feel free to shoot it down.

AFAIK, the fastest a vaccine has been got in to production (after completing tests etc.) is 14 years. And there has never been a vaccine for a coronavirus (though there nearly was).

The government seem to be building hopes up that they will be able to mass produce a vaccine next year at the latest. That seems on the surface insane.

Possible explanations:

a) The vaccine will be a harmless placebo to reassure people that they are safe, because the disease will basically die down of its own volition. (As MERS and SARS did).

b) They already can produce a vaccine because they knew all about this in the first place and are using it as a power grab for the NWO.

c) They are ill-informed bumblers that shouldn't be left in charge of a whelk stall.

I favour c)
d. The scope of the need for a vaccine and the micro-biologic tools and communication capability that have appeared over the past five years and the potential for infinite profit and glory are so immense that the model for vaccine development has changed, and everyone on the planet who is capable of working in it is entirely focused on the project, so that the previous data on development timing and process is useless and there is a measurable possibility that one will be developed quickly.

SARS died down because at the outset the initial countries affected did a great job of containment. Not so this time. MERS is primarily communicable from camels. No so much from humans.

Who the hell is they supposed to be?
 

Cochise

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d. The scope of the need for a vaccine and the micro-biologic tools and communication capability that have appeared over the past five years and the potential for infinite profit and glory are so immense that the model for vaccine development has changed, and everyone on the planet who is capable of working in it is entirely focused on the project, so that the previous data on development timing and process is useless and there is a measurable possibility that one will be developed quickly.

SARS died down because at the outset the initial countries affected did a great job of containment. Not so this time. MERS is primarily communicable from camels. No so much from humans.

Who the hell is they supposed to be?
'They' - Them as turn up in huge yachts at F1 races. And politicians of all flavours. And their advisers and anyone else living in that bubble.

So you are saying we can have a vaccine without long term tests? Ever heard of Thalidomide?
 

Lb8535

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I actually spent part of my life having to deal with people with huge yachts. They are no more capable of organizing a world-wide conspiracy than you and I are, or wanting to. They want to stay on their yachts, they are not necessarily smart, they don't always cooperate with each other, and they want to play with their toys. Their reaction to threat is to buy land in New Zealand. This is not the X files. It is not possible to keep a secret if more than one person knows it. (edit - and most of the people I ran across were basically good)

Depends what you mean by long-term. If you appointed me as project manager to bringing a covid 19 vaccine to approval right now, I would fractionalize the process. Given the communicability and the downside risk I would suggest looking at approving vaccines for portions of the population If you want to get the consumer economy going, test on non-pregnant non-diabetic normal BMI 20-60, prime working years. Then worry about the fringes - over 60, pregnant, already sick., children. Make decisions statistically because it's a huge pool of people who need it. If there turns out to be a risk for blue-eyed men over six feet tall, otherwise testing within normal parameters of vaccine risk, tell the blue-eyed men not to get the vaccine, wait for the bug fix. If you roll out and discover than there is a risk to those blue-eyed men, tell them not to get the vaccine. Results on this one will be quickly evident. (this is actually done now with drugs) This is one thing I mean by changing the plan.
 

Trevp666

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or.....e/ A vaccine already exists, albeit for a different thing (like the 'flu shots people get every year), and all that's been done is a tweak.
 

Lb8535

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or.....e/ A vaccine already exists, albeit for a different thing (like the 'flu shots people get every year), and all that's been done is a tweak.
I suspect that that was the first thing someone tried and it was not the answer. B
 

Mythopoeika

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I'll put this here - I'm beginning to develop my own conspiracy theory.

Please feel free to shoot it down.

AFAIK, the fastest a vaccine has been got in to production (after completing tests etc.) is 14 years.
24 months. Ebola.
 

Lb8535

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24 months. Ebola.
And there's no way to say this nicely, but Ebola was a disease that was seen as affecting Africans, not Europeans, in countries that could not afford to pay a lot for it. So that might end up being considered slow. It's not possible to overestimate the profit that whoever markets a moderately effective c19 vaccine will realize. The motivation for a vaccine is enormous. Actually there may be several vaccines, there are several manufacturers for the flu which is also probably pretty profitable.. Once the medical community spread the word about needing ventilators, easily a dozen workable much cheaper replacements for this situation were developed very quickly and are in production.
 

Cochise

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I do appreciate the positive replies and I hope they work out.

I alas have become a pessimist. I will redraw your attention to guess 'c)'
 

Lb8535

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I do appreciate the positive replies and I hope they work out.

I alas have become a pessimist. I will redraw your attention to guess 'c)'
Yes and we need to stop electing them and start pointing out incompetence, which a free press can help greatly at.
 

Ermintruder

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the model for vaccine development has changed, and everyone on the planet who is capable of working in it is entirely focused on the project
This is entirely-possible.

But: when you consider the massive international differentials that've been evident in respect of testing (....that's including definitions/methods/protocols/quantities) can anyone have any confidence that the multiple efforts to create a vaccine (reportedly 48) are being coordinated in any meaningful way?

I really hope that the collaborative conduit of high-bandwidth grid internetworking for vaccine development wins over partisan commercial competitiveness, transnational distrust and collaborative impracticalities.

And: can anyone explain how the confident assertion is being made that there will be multiple millions of vaccine doses safely-available in September in the probable absence of.....
  • meaningful clinical safety trials (especially longer-term effects)
  • true tests of efficacy across the full age-range of all recipients
  • data on duration of protection afforded to recipients (and relative level of rejection to the virus)
  • considerations as to comparative effectiveness of administering a vaccine following an extended period over which the virus has adaptively-evolved
 

Lb8535

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This is entirely-possible.

But: when you consider the massive international differentials that've been evident in respect of testing (....that's including definitions/methods/protocols/quantities) can anyone have any confidence that the multiple efforts to create a vaccine (reportedly 48) are being coordinated in any meaningful way?

I really hope that the collaborative conduit of high-bandwidth grid internetworking for vaccine development wins over partisan commercial competitiveness, transnational distrust and collaborative impracticalities.

And: can anyone explain how the confident assertion is being made that there will be multiple millions of vaccine doses safely-available in September in the probable absence of.....
  • meaningful clinical safety trials (especially longer-term effects)
  • true tests of efficacy across the full age-range of all recipients
  • data on duration of protection afforded to recipients (and relative level of rejection to the virus)
  • considerations as to comparative effectiveness of administering a vaccine following an extended period over which the virus has adaptively-evolved
Bear in mind that my argument above was not about September, it was about faster than usual. But I am suggesting that just plodding down the "normal" trail is not a good solution. If someone came up with a vaccine that testing showed seemed to work on immunity and lab testing estimated that it would only last for a year would we accept this? of course. If it only worked on men? of course. Will it have to be tweaked each year as for the flu vaccine? yes. it doesn't work on children? Yes. I'm suggesting that getting most of the working world back to normal life is the priority. (and I'm not even in it.) As to long term effects, no one knows the long term effects of any new drug.. And until recently I took a drug because the condition it cured 99% of the time was a better deal than worrying about the long-term evils it caused 2% of the time. And everyone knew about that one but no one knew when it was first issued.

Also - I live in the state of New York where the government under the direction of the appropriate health official simply developed their own antibody test and had it manufactured without any fanfare. It appears to work pretty well and is being used as a benchmark for how counties are doing. Time will tell how long the antibodies last and what it really means to have them. But it can be done especially if politics and PR are ignored. Big complaint now is that there is an oversupply of test kits.
 

Ogdred Weary

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This is entirely-possible.

But: when you consider the massive international differentials that've been evident in respect of testing (....that's including definitions/methods/protocols/quantities) can anyone have any confidence that the multiple efforts to create a vaccine (reportedly 48) are being coordinated in any meaningful way?

I really hope that the collaborative conduit of high-bandwidth grid internetworking for vaccine development wins over partisan commercial competitiveness, transnational distrust and collaborative impracticalities.

And: can anyone explain how the confident assertion is being made that there will be multiple millions of vaccine doses safely-available in September in the probable absence of.....
  • meaningful clinical safety trials (especially longer-term effects)
  • true tests of efficacy across the full age-range of all recipients
  • data on duration of protection afforded to recipients (and relative level of rejection to the virus)
  • considerations as to comparative effectiveness of administering a vaccine following an extended period over which the virus has adaptively-evolved
I believe one of the UK versions may be "ready" in September and mass produced by January. Hypothetically. It may never be ready, nor any of the others. They can make a vaccine for flu, which mutates, so presumably it's possible to do for this one. Assuming they can make and mass produce one or more, we won't know the long term effects, for quite some time. Maybe it'll throttle the virus but make us all into gay frogs?
 

AlienView

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AlienView said:
And as for the origin of conspiracies - who knows, I suppose if I searched hard
enough I could find conspiracies on why Cain slew Able.


I hope you mean that metaphorically, because I don't accept that Cain and Abel every actually existed as people. Also, a conspiracy of one is no conspiracy, that's just a crime.

When a "skeptic" puts forwards a case without evidence, they are not being a skeptic, but a superstitious peasant. Skepticism is only valuable when it is supported by an actual foundation of evidence. If that evidence is faulty, the skeptic has a duty to withdraw their argument, not double down on their error for the sake of pride.

“They talk about me not being legitimate. Nobody’s on the legit, you know that and so do they. Nobody’s really-on the legit when it comes down to cases.”
Al Capone

“Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class.” – Al Capone

“Bolshevism is knocking at our gates, we can’t afford to let it in. We must keep America whole and safe and unspoiled.” – Al Capone

“…Don’t ever talk to me about the honor of police captains or judges. If they couldn’t be bought they wouldn’t have the job.” – Al Capone
 

Naughty_Felid

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AlienView said:
And as for the origin of conspiracies - who knows, I suppose if I searched hard
enough I could find conspiracies on why Cain slew Able.








“They talk about me not being legitimate. Nobody’s on the legit, you know that and so do they. Nobody’s really-on the legit when it comes down to cases.”
Al Capone

“Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class.” – Al Capone

“Bolshevism is knocking at our gates, we can’t afford to let it in. We must keep America whole and safe and unspoiled.” – Al Capone

“…Don’t ever talk to me about the honor of police captains or judges. If they couldn’t be bought they wouldn’t have the job.” – Al Capone
All this is known and has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. There is a small elite that controls everyone else. Hapsburgs, Mervovigians, Hanoverians, Stuarts, Windsors, etc, etc in Europe.

In America a bunch of freemasons and landowners started the whole process over there then we got Ford, Rockerfeller, etc.

You seem to think you are blowing our minds but it's just tiresome. We know there has been a global elite - you're not telling any of us anything we don't know.

Perhaps post on facebook or something where people don't know and spread your amazingly erudite opinions there? This is the Fortean Forums a lot of the posters have forgotten more stuff than the average person will ever know when it comes to conspiracy.

Many of us older conspiracy nuts understand that you can get sucked into the conspiracy void, Chapel Perilous, the Iron Prison, whatever you want to call it which you have.

You are living an existence that is sadly not an existence because you are like a TV set that can never be turned off.

Days of your life are passing with this obsession over things that you have no power over. Perhaps have a rethink like many of us have done before and just step outside and enjoy our beautiful world?
 

Cochise

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This is based on Ferguson's work (the now infamous 'report 9' )

Interestingly it has an important caveat which seems to have been overlooked:

"To note: Modelling has been based on these assumptions. It is critical that details of any policy are not driven by these modelling assumptions alone. Interventions can be remodelled with revised assumptions once these have been decided in consultation with departments. "

In other words 'we ran the model with these guesses, please come back to us with any changes you'd like and we'll rerun it'

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ntions-on-an-epidemic-of-covid-19-in-uk-1.pdf

Perhaps not everyone read down that far?

It would certainly be unfair to blame it all on Ferguson - perhaps the media who got hold of his highest figure (the 'do nothing' option of 500,000 dead), and who latched with vulturine glee on the phrase 'herd immunity' deserve a much larger share of the blame.
 

Min Bannister

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This is based on Ferguson's work (the now infamous 'report 9' )

Interestingly it has an important caveat which seems to have been overlooked:

"To note: Modelling has been based on these assumptions. It is critical that details of any policy are not driven by these modelling assumptions alone. Interventions can be remodelled with revised assumptions once these have been decided in consultation with departments. "

In other words 'we ran the model with these guesses, please come back to us with any changes you'd like and we'll rerun it'

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ntions-on-an-epidemic-of-covid-19-in-uk-1.pdf

Perhaps not everyone read down that far?

It would certainly be unfair to blame it all on Ferguson - perhaps the media who got hold of his highest figure (the 'do nothing' option of 500,000 dead), and who latched with vulturine glee on the phrase 'herd immunity' deserve a much larger share of the blame.
I've been pointing that out for the last two months.. :dunno:
 

Cochise

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''one sinner that repents' :)

His code should still have been peer reviewed. By someone from the computer science department, perhaps?

It does make you wonder if Ferguson's 'mistakes' in the past arise from the same process that we are seeing here though. A paper is presented by the committee which clearly says it is not a policy document but somehow it gets translated into policy anyway.

I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for him now.
 

maximus otter

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I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for him now.
When he compensates everyone for all the damage his vapourings have done to UK Ltd. I might begin to feel a trace of sympathy for him.

As it is, he's set this country back years with his spittle-flecked "The End Is Nigh!" sandwich-boarding, and will experience a grand total of zero negative consequences.

maximus otter
 

Cochise

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When he compensates everyone for all the damage his vapourings have done to UK Ltd. I might begin to feel a trace of sympathy for him.

As it is, he's set this country back years with his spittle-flecked "The End Is Nigh!" sandwich-boarding, and will experience a grand total of zero negative consequences.

maximus otter
Well it was the media that somehow got hold of his numbers and shouted them to the rooftops. The 500,000 (actually 510,000) was if we did nothing at all, and that was never going to be the case. The report above was from the whole of SAGE, not just one individual.

You would hope the words 'following the science' won't be heard again for a long time.
 

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China rejecting calls for probe into origins of the virus, tells us everything we need to know already.
 

maximus otter

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Well it was the media that somehow got hold of his numbers and shouted them to the rooftops. The 500,000 (actually 510,000) was if we did nothing at all, and that was never going to be the case. The report above was from the whole of SAGE, not just one individual.

You would hope the words 'following the science' won't be heard again for a long time.
I take your point completely, but Ferguson was the driver. A complicit media battened onto his tales of Götterdämmerung, ignoring his lengthy track record of exaggeration and his impenetrable GIGO computer program; and the rest - and the UK's economy - is history.

maximus otter
 

AlchoPwn

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“They talk about me not being legitimate. Nobody’s on the legit, you know that and so do they. Nobody’s really-on the legit when it comes down to cases.”
Al Capone

“Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class.” – Al Capone

“Bolshevism is knocking at our gates, we can’t afford to let it in. We must keep America whole and safe and unspoiled.” – Al Capone

“…Don’t ever talk to me about the honor of police captains or judges. If they couldn’t be bought they wouldn’t have the job.” – Al Capone
What made Al great was the stupidity of a society that thought it had an obligation to legislate morality, and created a huge black market that came to dominate both the national economy and the corridors of power. Al is right about capitalism being the ruling class' racket, but capitalism is still pretty new. Prior to capitalism, the racket of the ruling class was landlordism and the collection of rents by the aristocracy. Capitalism can give back in a way that landlordism doesn't. The fact that Capone was scared of Bolshevism is amusing, given that both he and the Bolsheviks are basically gangsters. As to Capone on police being bought, well, you have to remember that the police didn't agree with prohibition but were charged with enforcing it, but did they receive extra pay for the extra work? Not one bit. In the 1920s, policing was a poorly paid job where officers were expected to provide their own uniforms and pay for their own ammunition out of their meagre salaries. US policing was a situation set up to promote bribery and corruption quite deliberately in most major cities by rich people who wanted the police in their pockets.
 

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This is based on Ferguson's work (the now infamous 'report 9' )

Interestingly it has an important caveat which seems to have been overlooked:

"To note: Modelling has been based on these assumptions. It is critical that details of any policy are not driven by these modelling assumptions alone. Interventions can be remodelled with revised assumptions once these have been decided in consultation with departments. "

In other words 'we ran the model with these guesses, please come back to us with any changes you'd like and we'll rerun it'

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ntions-on-an-epidemic-of-covid-19-in-uk-1.pdf

Perhaps not everyone read down that far?

It would certainly be unfair to blame it all on Ferguson - perhaps the media who got hold of his highest figure (the 'do nothing' option of 500,000 dead), and who latched with vulturine glee on the phrase 'herd immunity' deserve a much larger share of the blame.
More than a share. Never offer the media an easy soundbite about a complicated subject. This is one reason people get paid to craft communications.
 
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