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The Erosion of Christianity in Britain

Didnt you complain?

Such aggressive card sending is not healthy
 
Kondoru said:
Didnt you complain?
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Good grief no. If she wants to asphyxiate herself with Tippex fumes that's more than fine by me. :) The more time she spends in pointless activities like that the less time she has to sign petitions against gay rights or whatever she usually gets up to.
 
Perhaps we are taking a too modern slant on why Christian festivals have 'hijacked' pagan festivals and usurped them.

Christianity is the incumbent religion in Western Europe and has been for the past 1000+ years ( I'm a bit shaky on that statement but I'm sure it is sort of right) - hence we are used to it acting aggressively to defend its territory. Hence we assume it muscled in on pagans and their traditions and customs to grab power. And I'm sure there is quite a lot of evidence of such behaviour.

But the early church started out as a minority and was persecuted for a long time. Therefore it made sense for the early church to adopt festival days that conincided with major festivals of the then incumbent religions so that their members didn't stand out like sore thumbs and attract what could be unwelcome attention. Hence the adoption of much of the same behavour also? (I'm thinking about the present giving of the Saturnalia for example) Hence this process started out as a defensive mechanism that naturally lead to replacement of the festival when Christianity became predominant.

As the main Xtian feastival, the death of Christ was essentially rooted around Jewish Passover and that may have come from a Proto-Jewish Spring rite festival (when the jews were probably polyatheist) - the Xtian's had plenty of synergies with other religion's spring activities. The birth of Christ, which had less relevance to the people at the time could be put anywhere on the calender - so why not move it to the Winter solstice to cover Xtian behaviour then? Hence the discrepency with the shepards out in the pastures when they should have been indoors.
 
Romani ite domum

DeeDeeTee said:
Perhaps we are taking a too modern slant on why Christian festivals have 'hijacked' pagan festivals and usurped them.
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Blame the Romans and Roman politics if we must blame anyone at all. You had two camps then. Mithraism or Christianity. And Mithraism was Christianity's biggest opposition. Jerusalem and the rest of Europe didn't accept the idea for a long LONG time (centuries). And this was long after Mithras had run to the hills (literally).

"Romani ite domum" and all that. But then where would we be without their underfloor heating and straight roads and plumbing? (joke)

So, at that deciding point, between Mithraism and Christianity... what if it had been the other way round. Here's some speculation from Franz Cumont (A Belgian archaeologist and historian who wrote several studies on the impact of mystery religions), which gives an interesting perspective of Mithraism (note his point about church and state). He had this to say in Les Mystères de Mithra:
The morals of the human race would have been but little changed, a little more virile perhaps, a little less charitable, but only a shade different. The erudite theology taught by the mysteries would obviously have shown a laudable respect for science, but as its dogmas were based upon a false physics it would apparently have insure the persistence of an infinity of errors. Astronomy would not be lacking, but astrology would have been unassailable, while the heavens would still be revolving around the earth to accord with its doctrines. The greatest danger, would have been that the Caesars would have established a theocratic absolutism supported by the Oriental ideas of the divinity of kings. The union of throne and altar would have been inseparable, and Europe would never have known the invigorating struggle between church and state. But on the other hand the discipline of Mithraism, so productive of individual energy, and the democratic organization of its societies in which senators and slaves rubbed elbows, contain a germ of liberty. We might dwell at some length on these contrasting possibilities, but it is hard to find a mental pastime less profitable than the attempt to remake history and to conjecture on what might have been had events proved otherwise.
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ramonmercado said:
Merry Mithras,hic!
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indeed. It certainly sounds good. Do you reckon that had Franz Cumot's scenario been the case Dawkins would have written a book about it, and if so, how do you reckon it would have differed to his present take on religion? (A possible given that he'd condemn it, but bearing in mind altar and throne (nice term), but in the instance of Mithras, tremendous liberty).

Anyone know if the likes of Harry Turtledove have written about such an alternate history?
 
Now that would be an interesting AH.

I think to RD , any god will do.

Another good author for the Mithras AH would be S.M. Stirling. He wrote The Peshawar Lancers set in an Eartth which was bombard by bits of comets in 1878. The Empire survives in India, but the racial bars are gone. The RC & Anglican Churchs have united and their theologians are discussing if Vishnu is an aspect of Jesus.

Thereis also a Russian Death church, which worships Tchenobog, the Peacock Angel, which will complete the destruction of the Earth.
 
ramonmercado said:
I think to RD , any god will do.
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LOL. I think you're right.
ramonmercado said:
Another good author for the Mithras AH would be S.M. Stirling. He wrote The Peshawar Lancers set in an Eartth which was bombard by bits of comets in 1878. The Empire survives in India, but the racial bars are gone. The RC & Anglican Churchs have united and their theologians are discussing if Vishnu is an aspect of Jesus.
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Now that sounds like one for the library. Nice. Cheers for the heads up:)
 
You can find more info at: http://www.smstirling.com/

The Draka series is excellent as is Dies the Fire. Wicca figures as a religion in DTF, not the nutty sort, this type is of Celtic origins, esp Irish.
 
The Sunrise Lands also deals with the union of the RC & Anglican Churchs'.
You will find some background material at Extra 1: Developments in Britain post-Change Years 1-25 (1998-2023 AD).

Stirling has a wicked sense of humour as in:


(Except for the "Republic of Ireland", a rump state in the western part of the island universally known outside its own borders as "Provoland", just as the Principality of Ulster is termed "Ian's Rump" by most non-residents. Later investigation showed a degree of collusion and collaboration between Provoland's leadership and the corsairs.)
 
"Romani ite domum" and all that. But then where would we be without their underfloor heating and straight roads and plumbing? (joke)
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Or sanitation, education and the aquaduct? :lol:

Witchflame
 
ramonmercado said:
You can find more info at: http://www.smstirling.com/

The Draka series is excellent as is Dies the Fire. Wicca figures as a religion in DTF, not the nutty sort, this type is of Celtic origins, esp Irish.
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Excellent author. If you're going to read Dies the Fire, you should also check out the related Island in the Sea of Time series.
 
And someone wants to do something about it:

Attempts to move Christian traditions to the "margins" of British life have "gone far enough", an MP has said.

Mark Pritchard said "Christianophobia" of the "politically correct brigade" also ran the risk of Christianity being hijacked by extremist parties.

The Tory MP said he did not want to criticise people of other faiths, but wanted to "recognise and protect the Christian tradition of this nation".

He has called a Westminster debate on Christianophobia for Wednesday.
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Source
 
lupinwick said:
Attempts to move Christian traditions to the "margins" of British life have "gone far enough", an MP has said.

Mark Pritchard said "Christianophobia" of the "politically correct brigade" also ran the risk of Christianity being hijacked by extremist parties.

The Tory MP said he did not want to criticise people of other faiths, but wanted to "recognise and protect the Christian tradition of this nation".

He has called a Westminster debate on Christianophobia for Wednesday.
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Source
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Odin's Day?
 
Which inadventatly adds weight to the idea that Christianity didn't enter Britain all guns blazing and systematically wipe paganism off the map.
 
rjmrjmrjm said:
Which inadventatly adds weight to the idea that Christianity didn't enter Britain all guns blazing and systematically wipe paganism off the map.
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No, first they came in, bearing gifts, then they weaselled their way in to everybody's good books, then they systematically colonized some beliefs, leaving vestigial traces, whilst wiping out the ones they couldn't adapt, or exact a tithe out of. ;)
 
Yes, but it happened over such a long period of time that it probably wasn't planned in one great scheme. I'm fed up of people looking at this from the viewpoint of a battle. It was just a social change, similar to multicultural Britain - there are people moaning about it now but in 40 years when a good proportion of Britains population will be of immigrant decent I doubt that there will be many people bemoaning the fact that there aren't enough white faces on the streets.
 
Here we go again. Anyone for Lokis Day? We could give eachother Loki bags.

Christmas is axed in Oxford
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/nov/02/chris ... -christian
The Observer, Sunday November 2 2008

Council leaders in Oxford have decided to ban the word Christmas from this year's festive celebrations to make them more 'inclusive'. But the decision to rename the series of events the 'Winter Light Festival' has been criticised by religious leaders and locals said it was 'ludicrous'.

Sabir Hussain Mirza, chairman of the Muslim Council of Oxford, said: 'This is the one occasion which everyone looks forward to in the year. Christians, Muslims and other religions all look forward to Christmas. I'm angry and very, very disappointed. Christmas is special and we shouldn't ignore it.

'Christian people should be offended and 99 per cent of people will be against this. Christmas is part of being British.'

Rabbi Eli Bracknell, who teaches at the Jewish Educational Centre, said: 'It's important to maintain a traditional British Christmas. Anything that waters down traditional culture and Christianity in the UK is not positive for the British identity.'

The idea came from the charity Oxford Inspires, which was set up to promote culture in the area. Tei Williams, a press officer for the charity, said: 'In Oxfordshire we have Winter Light which is a whole festival spanning two months. Within that will be Christmas carol services.'

Deputy leader of the council Ed Turner added: 'There's going to be a Christmas tree, and even if the lights are called something else to me they will be Christmas lights.'
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Protests as ferry firm ends Hebridean island's Sunday isolation
Christian community in Lewis outraged by plans to start sailings to mainland on Sabbath
Severin Carrell, Scotland correspondent guardian.co.uk,

For centuries the Hebridean island of Lewis has shut down on a Sunday, the last stronghold of Sabbatarianism in Britain. But that is all about to end. Within a few months ferries will start sailing from the mainland on a Sunday, ending the island's isolation from the modern world.

Today, in a long-expected announcement, the ferry operator Caledonian MacBrayne confirmed it had decided finally to begin sailings from Ullapool to the Western Isles every day of the week, after lawyers warned it was illegal to ban Sunday sailings.

Lewis's staunchly Calvinist Protestant community has campaigned vigorously to retain Sundays as a day of rest: many refuse to work, play sports, watch television, read anything other than the Bible or even drive a car except to reach church.

It is a position officially upheld by the Western Isles council, which has repeatedly refused to grant licences for shops and businesses to open on Sunday, and few of the island's politicians dare disagree.

While the rest of the UK should get the results of the forthcoming European elections late on Sunday 7 June, the final declaration for Scotland will be delayed until Monday because the Western Isles council refuses to hold its count or declare the votes of its 22,000 electors on a Sunday.

Even Tesco knew it had to observe the Sabbath when it applied to open its first store in Lewis's main town of Stornoway last year, stating in advance it had no plans to open on a Sunday.

Councillors have refused to allow the island's sports centre and swimming pool to open on a Sunday, to the dismay of local doctors who worry about the islanders' health, while golf clubs are unable to open their courses and clubhouses.Today the ferry company's executives revealed that their lawyers had warned it was illegal to prevent Sunday sailings, breaching the Equality Act's rules against religious discrimination.

The decision is expected to be confirmed by CalMac's board on Wednesday. Peter Timms, CalMac's chairman, said the company had been warned by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission that it was at risk of being sued and fined if it failed to have seven-day sailings.

"Our hands appear to be tied legally," he said. "We don't want to be operating any longer illegally than we have to."

Some of the island's Sabbatarians admit privately that Sunday sailings were inevitable: air services have landed at Stornoway on Sundays for some years, while Sunday ferry services began from the largely Catholic islands of Barra and the Uists to Harris, which makes up the lower half of Lewis, last year.

However, 4,000 people signed a petition last year organised by the Lord's Day Observance Society (LDOS) opposing Sunday sailings and today John Roberts, the director of the LDOS, warned there would be angry protests.

"The Western Isles are unique and are a Christian bulwark," he said. "Sunday sailing will shatter the uniqueness of the islands and cause unnecessary work. People will not lie down if the company plans to put profit before the law of God and break the Sabbath." Yet increasing numbers of islanders have complained about the impact the ban on Sunday sailings has on their lives and businesses, and accused the Sabbatarians of imposing their religious beliefs on the wider community.

It stops them driving to the mainland for weekend trips to see friends and relatives, and makes it tougher for businesses to reach their mainland customers on Mondays.

Donald Macleod, a management consultant in Stornoway who supports Sunday sailings, said: "It is a matter of choice – if people object to sailing on a Sunday they don't have to do so."

Timms said CalMac was also under pressure from companies, visitors and holidaymakers on the mainland. The restrictions on six-day services put their ferries under greater pressure, particularly during the peak summer months. A new Scottish government programme to cut ferry fares to the equivalent cost of a car journey by land had increased demand even more.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/1 ... ow-sabbath
 
ramonmercado said:
Here we go again. Anyone for Lokis Day? We could give eachother Loki bags.

Christmas is axed in Oxford
www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/nov/02/chris ... -christian
The Observer, Sunday November 2 2008

Council leaders in Oxford have decided to ban the word Christmas from this year's festive celebrations to make them more 'inclusive'. But the decision to rename the series of events the 'Winter Light Festival' has been criticised by religious leaders and locals said it was 'ludicrous'.
'
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I know I'm pretty late with this, but: I was in Oxford at the time, and this was of course completely untrue. Shame that even The Observer decided to run this story. ;)
 
I have a question: if the religionists above are agitating for Sunday as a day of rest does this not make them heretics as clearly the Sabbath was never on a Sunday and the whole thing has no Biblical basis - in fact is actually going against Biblical injunctions?
 
actualy

This :-

Archbishop Sentamu also cited a decision made by Birmingham City Council eight years ago to rename Christmas “Winterval” which was intended to avoid causing offence to people of other religions.

is complete bollocks, its an urban myth, it was a marketing campaign run by local businesses and supported by local councils in the hope that it would encourage trade,, nothing whatever to do with trying to rebrand christmas, sadly it was picked up by the dailly mail and turned into a bullshit story by Richard Littlejohn.
 
When idiot-ranting-reporters and papers run stories like the "Winterval" nonsense, they (or their readers) usually comment "You just couldn't make it up!"

Rubbish - the tabloid press do it all the time.
 
ditching christianity

This "Gumpf" is all about not offending the Muslim faith, nothing more nothing less, well I say without say reservation, stuff the Muslims, if they cant live without being "Offended" by Christianity, then let them got out or get on with it. I,m not big on religion any more but, this is a country based on Christian beliefs and culture and I most strongly object to ANYONE suborning that faith or that culture merely not to be "Offended " by it. I dont feel offended by anyone of the Muslim faith or any other faith, Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Church of Turkey or Inner Church of Outer Mongolia, they do their thing freely and without prosletysing don,t they?, well let the Muslims do the same. And Government and lefty tree hugging wimpy PC interferers should keep their Orwellian Marxist noses out of it and stick to screwing the country the best way they know how, by TROUGHING in the expenses bin. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

sorry about spelling errors, btw.
 
Re: ditching christianity

Tangaroa42 said:
This "Gumpf" is all about not offending the Muslim faith, nothing more nothing less, well I say without say reservation, stuff the Muslims, if they cant live without being "Offended" by Christianity, then let them got out or get on with it. I,m not big on religion any more but, this is a country based on Christian beliefs and culture and I most strongly object to ANYONE suborning that faith or that culture merely not to be "Offended " by it. I dont feel offended by anyone of the Muslim faith or any other faith, Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Church of Turkey or Inner Church of Outer Mongolia, they do their thing freely and without prosletysing don,t they?, well let the Muslims do the same. And Government and lefty tree hugging wimpy PC interferers should keep their Orwellian Marxist noses out of it and stick to screwing the country the best way they know how, by TROUGHING in the expenses bin. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

sorry about spelling errors, btw.
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Lefty-tree-hugging.....umm...ok..... This one could be a wingnut alert.....at least we don't need to address any issues. Should save some energy!

But; When the %^%$% did it become cool to be a right winger??? Or are these knee-jerkers all grandpas sinking into decrepitude and raging on the internet in between watching Fox News waiting for the Daily Mail to be delivered? It's bloody odd....it's like they're proud of it or something...

Btw...I think you forgot to put a reference to 'Cappuccino' in your list of epithets....they might lapse your membership. I'd edit it quickly.

:D hahah
 
When we lived in Gravesend [Kent], which has a large indian population, I saw what some call urban myth with my own eyes. There were no x-mas related lights [not even snowflakes], just those blueish dots everytwhere. No mentioning of x-mas but two massive columns at the entry to the pedestrian zone, that depicted people of every race smiling on white background, which looked like a council advert but was in no way "festive". It felt cold and horrible. There was a greeting of winter festival or something along those lines printed above their heads. A year earlier I worked with a majority of muslims and indians, who [earlier than anyone else] started to decorate their workspace with all sorts of x-massy stuff and walked around the offices, giving us decorations, calling us boring.
So I think this winterval stuff is not just an UL and foreigners are not always the one who are asking for a "neutral" x-mas.
 
Dingo667 said:
When we lived in Gravesend [Kent], which has a large indian population, I saw what some call urban myth with my own eyes. There were no x-mas related lights [not even snowflakes], just those blueish dots everytwhere.
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Those blue LED 'fairy lights' are a sin and should be banned. They look bloody awful.
 
Not exactly sure what this this article says about the erosion of Christianity but it certainly adds fuel to te argument about the erosion of civil liberties, free speech and common sense.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...efending-beliefs-discussion-Muslim-guest.html

Christian hotel owners hauled before court after defending their beliefs in discussion with Muslim guest

By Jonathan Petre
Last updated at 12:28 PM on 20th September 2009

A Christian couple have been charged with a criminal offence after taking part in what they regarded as a reasonable discussion about religion with guests at their hotel.

Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang were arrested after a Muslim woman complained to police that she had been offended by their comments.

They have been charged under public order laws with using ‘threatening, abusive or insulting words’ that were ‘religiously aggravated’.
Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang

Facing trial: Christian hoteliers Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang believed the religious discussion was reasonable and deny their comments were threatening

The couple, whose trial has been set for December, face a fine of up to £5,000 and a criminal record if they are convicted.

Although the facts are disputed, it is thought that during the conversation the couple were challenged over their Christian beliefs.

It is understood that they suggested that Mohammed, the founder of Islam, was a warlord and that traditional Muslim dress for women was a form of bondage.

They deny, however, that their comments were threatening and argue that they had every right to defend and explain their beliefs.
The Bounty House Hotel in Liverpool

Scene of 'offence': The Bounty House Hotel in Liverpool, where a Muslim guest was upset

Mrs Vogelenzang, 54, who has run the Bounty House Hotel near Aintree racecourse in Liverpool with her husband Ben, 53, for six years, said: ‘Nothing like this has happened to us before. We are completely shocked.’

She added that the episode had damaged their business and they had been forced to lay off staff and run the nine-bedroom hotel by themselves, leaving them exhausted.

Sources said that a number of guests staying at the hotel, which charges £92 a night for a double room, were having breakfast in its restaurant on March 20 when comments were made about religion.

One of those involved was the Muslim woman, who was staying at the hotel while she received treatment at a hospital nearby.

The couple, who are members of the Bootle Christian Fellowship, and their solicitor, David Whiting, said they could not discuss the content of the conversation for legal reasons. But the independent lobby group, the Christian Institute, which has seen both the prosecution and defence legal papers, is supporting their defence.

Mr Whiting, who last year successfully defended street preacher Anthony Rollins in Birmingham, said: ‘There is a dispute as to the facts of the allegations, but Ben and Sharon do not accept they were threatening, abusive or insulting.

‘They are committed Christians and it is the defence’s contention that they have every right to defend their religious beliefs and explain those beliefs to others who do not hold similar views.’

After the incident, the couple voluntarily attended St Anne’s Street police station in Liverpool, where they were interviewed under caution.

In July they were arrested and charged under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 and Section 31 (1) (c) and (5) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.

They appeared briefly at Liverpool Magistrates Court on Friday to hear the date of their trial before magistrates, and were granted bail on the condition that they did not approach any of the witnesses expected to appear.

The use by the police of the Public Order Act to arrest people over offensive comments has dismayed a number of lawyers, who say the legislation was passed to deal with law and order problems in the streets.

Neil Addison, a prominent criminal barrister and expert in religious law, said: ‘The purpose of the Public Order Act is to prevent disorder, but I’m very concerned that the police are using it merely because someone is offended.

‘It should be used where there is violence, yobbish behaviour or gratuitous personal abuse. It should never be used where there has been a personal conversation or debate with views firmly expressed.

‘If someone is in a discussion and they don’t like what they are hearing, they can walk away.’

He added that the police had a legal duty under the Human Rights Act to defend free speech ‘and I think they are forgetting that’.

A number of Church leaders in Liverpool have written to Keir Starmer, the Director of Public Prosecutions, voicing their concerns and pressing for the case to be dropped.

Christian Institute spokesman Mike Judge said ‘important’ issues of religious liberty were at stake.

‘In recent years, we have backed several cases where Christians have suffered unfair treatment because of their faith,’ he said. ‘We have detected a worrying tendency for public bodies to misapply the law in a way that seems to sideline Christianity more than other faiths.’

A spokesman for Merseyside Police said: ‘It would be inappropriate to comment as this is an ongoing case.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fs-discussion-Muslim-guest.html#ixzz0RjTp4hX9
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Edit: URL size reduced. P_M
 
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