Peripart
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Yes, but we're not mindless idiots who can't have a discussion without foaming at the mouth, are we? You're right, of course, the sort of stuff that gets posted (and often as not, rapidly pulled) even on the BBC site is appallingly nasty. It doesn't mean we have to sink to that level too, does it?Quake42 said:
As we've seen, the Portuguese word aguido means something quite different to how we think of an official "suspect" in this country. Sure, this is a bizarre case, and one way or another, unlikely to have a happy ending, but at the moment, no-one has been charged with anything, or even arrested, let alone found guilty of anything.
In the absence of any hard evidence to the contrary, I will continue to think of the McCanns as grieving parents who are paying an awful price for leaving their children unattended.
Comments like
are just pointlessly spiteful, and probably libellous to all the people named.
Quake42
Warrior Princess
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Yeah - some of the issues here seem to be down to linguistic and cultural differences as well as a completely different legal system.
That said, one or more members of the Portugese PJ seems to be leaking a lot of material to the media and we have to assume some of it has a basis in fact.
As to some of the comments that have been made - well, I suspect a lot of people, myself included, had doubts about the parents' story from the start - doubts that were difficult to voice until recently. There's a good, and balanced, article here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article ... 02,00.html
well worth a read.
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Quake42 said:
Thanks for that link. One of the best articles on the story I've read.
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It's as if the gods of news media have been reading this thread and laughing at us.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 54,00.html
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 54,00.html
ramonmercado
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Quake42 said:
I feel she was a victim of a miscarriage of justice.
Imho the same is true of louise Woodard, she was railroaded by a power-hungry DA. At least there was a judge with integrity in that case.
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DNA hope offered to the McCanns
The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case.
Sir Alec Jeffreys said DNA matches alone did not establish guilt and all Madeleine's genetic characters would be found in at least one family member.
Gerry and Kate McCann, suspects in their daughter's disappearance, are considering commissioning independent tests on a Portuguese hire car.
But the Madeleine's Fund board will not allow money to go on legal expenses.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a 100% match to Madeleine was found in the car, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
In an exclusive interview with the BBC's Newsnight programme, Sir Alec said there could be a potential problem in assigning a profile to Madeleine given that all other members of her family would have been in the car.
"DNA testing seeks to establish whether DNA sample A from a crime scene, came or did not come from individual B," he said.
"So if you get a match there's very strong evidence that it did come from B.
"It is then up to investigators, the courts and all the rest of it to work out whether that connection is relevant or not.
"DNA doesn't have the words innocence or guilt in it - that is a legal concept. What it seeks to establish is connections and identifications."
'No doubts'
Earlier John McCann said his brother Gerry thought the Portuguese police had "gone up a cul-de-sac".
He told BBC's The One Show that Gerry had said they had "lost track" of what they were doing and urged the police to be straight with them.
"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
He added that had the police done a better job early on in the investigation then Gerry and Kate would not be suspects now.
Asked if he doubted their innocence at all, he said: "If you know the people, and you look at the whole situation, you look at it and think this is ridiculous."
Both parents deny vehemently any involvement in their four-year-old daughter's disappearance.
[...]
It is understood the couple are planning their own forensic tests amid suspicion about claims made by detectives in interviews with Kate McCann.
The McCanns appointed lawyers in Portugal and Britain after being named as formal suspects - but they will not be paid out of money donated by well-wishers.
A statement made by Esther McVey from the board of Madeleine's Fund said payment of legal defence costs would be legally permissible so long as they were repaid in the event of a guilty conviction.
However, she said the fund's directors recognised the spirit in which the generous donations were given and decided not to pay for the McCanns' legal costs.
"We stress that Gerry and Kate have not asked for these costs to be paid," she said.
So far donations totalling £1,036,104.17 have been received for Madeleine's Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned, according to the official campaign website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6992372.stm
The inventor of DNA fingerprinting has offered to act as an expert witness in the Madeleine McCann case.
Sir Alec Jeffreys said DNA matches alone did not establish guilt and all Madeleine's genetic characters would be found in at least one family member.
Gerry and Kate McCann, suspects in their daughter's disappearance, are considering commissioning independent tests on a Portuguese hire car.
But the Madeleine's Fund board will not allow money to go on legal expenses.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a 100% match to Madeleine was found in the car, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
In an exclusive interview with the BBC's Newsnight programme, Sir Alec said there could be a potential problem in assigning a profile to Madeleine given that all other members of her family would have been in the car.
"DNA testing seeks to establish whether DNA sample A from a crime scene, came or did not come from individual B," he said.
"So if you get a match there's very strong evidence that it did come from B.
"It is then up to investigators, the courts and all the rest of it to work out whether that connection is relevant or not.
"DNA doesn't have the words innocence or guilt in it - that is a legal concept. What it seeks to establish is connections and identifications."
'No doubts'
Earlier John McCann said his brother Gerry thought the Portuguese police had "gone up a cul-de-sac".
He told BBC's The One Show that Gerry had said they had "lost track" of what they were doing and urged the police to be straight with them.
"If they have got something that suggests Madeleine really is dead then for goodness sake tell the family who have the strongest feeling for this."
He added that had the police done a better job early on in the investigation then Gerry and Kate would not be suspects now.
Asked if he doubted their innocence at all, he said: "If you know the people, and you look at the whole situation, you look at it and think this is ridiculous."
Both parents deny vehemently any involvement in their four-year-old daughter's disappearance.
[...]
It is understood the couple are planning their own forensic tests amid suspicion about claims made by detectives in interviews with Kate McCann.
The McCanns appointed lawyers in Portugal and Britain after being named as formal suspects - but they will not be paid out of money donated by well-wishers.
A statement made by Esther McVey from the board of Madeleine's Fund said payment of legal defence costs would be legally permissible so long as they were repaid in the event of a guilty conviction.
However, she said the fund's directors recognised the spirit in which the generous donations were given and decided not to pay for the McCanns' legal costs.
"We stress that Gerry and Kate have not asked for these costs to be paid," she said.
So far donations totalling £1,036,104.17 have been received for Madeleine's Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned, according to the official campaign website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6992372.stm
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rynner said:
Wouldn't this set a precedent of sorts? I've always understood that most murders are actually committed by people known to the victim and very often family. Now if Jeffreys is actually saying that DNA aren't the 'be all and end all' isn't this opening a legal door that might be difficult to shut again.
Also, on another topic, what the buggery are the government pissing about at regarding DNA collection then?
To me, this gets weirder every day. When are they going to see the Queen and get the thumbs-up from Liz? Perhaps the McCanns should run a competition to see whether they can get yet another well-known name to endorse them? Maybe see if Sony or Microsoft will do a sponsorship deal on matching family tracksuits.
Timble2
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Actually he didn't say all of Madeleine's genetic characteristics would be found in at least one family member (yes, I saw the interview). What he was saying was between the members of a normal family you'd find all her genetic characteristics,
It's the combination of those characteristics that is unique to an individual (except in the cases of identical twins), so you've got to find enough points that match in the genetic profile so that it could only belong to the individual rather than being a fragement that could come from one or more other members of the family.
What he was saying that DNA alone couldn't prove guilt or innocence, it's to do with context and with the sensitivity of the tests now available, whether the amount of DNA found at the site could have come from accidental contact via a intermediate carrier.
In the current case, if there's only a tiny amount of DNA from a single spot in the car boot, it could be argued it's accidental transfer from a toy, or piece of clothing. If there's traces from lots of sites in the boot, or a large concentration, or as has been alleged hairs or body fluids, the story looks rather different.
It's the combination of those characteristics that is unique to an individual (except in the cases of identical twins), so you've got to find enough points that match in the genetic profile so that it could only belong to the individual rather than being a fragement that could come from one or more other members of the family.
What he was saying that DNA alone couldn't prove guilt or innocence, it's to do with context and with the sensitivity of the tests now available, whether the amount of DNA found at the site could have come from accidental contact via a intermediate carrier.
In the current case, if there's only a tiny amount of DNA from a single spot in the car boot, it could be argued it's accidental transfer from a toy, or piece of clothing. If there's traces from lots of sites in the boot, or a large concentration, or as has been alleged hairs or body fluids, the story looks rather different.
Peripart
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I presume the fund was set up to help with the costs of searching for their daughter (employing detectives to follow leads and sightings etc), and I believe it was also to be used so that the McCanns could continue their stay in Portugal as long as possible and keep their case in the news, and in the minds of the Portuguese police.Kondoru said:
When the fund was set up, it was, I guess, not in the forefront of the McCanns' minds that they would need to employ lawyers to defend themselves. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these "celebrity" lawyers mentioned are working for the McCanns for nothing, in order to keep their own profiles high. Whatever the ultimate outcome of any court case, I'm sure that the lawyers would be working on the basis that there's no such thing as bad publicity.
On that note, where's Max Clifford in all this? He usually pops up if a soap star twists their ankle, but I've seen nothing of him in ages...
Peripart said:
I had to deal with Max Clifford last year in a professional capacity. I would not recommend it, I found myself with an urge to wash my hands after every telephone conversation.
Hopefully the McCanns will have more integrity than to turn to him.
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Timble2 said:
That's the part I was going on, perhaps a wrong assumption admittedly, but that samples were quite significant (body fluids and hairs &c.).
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Clifford is representing the bloke who was the first suspect.
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Another new aspect....
McCann police 'have diary copy'
Portuguese police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have obtained a copy of her mother Kate's diary, the BBC has learned.
A laptop belonging to Madeleine's father Gerry has also been looked at.
The couple have been named as suspects in the disappearance of their four-year-old daughter from their apartment in Praia da Luz, the Algarve.
They have waged a high-profile campaign to find their daughter, and deny any involvement.
Mrs McCann was frequently seen writing her diary in private moments after Madeleine went missing from the family's holiday apartment more than four months ago.
Admissible evidence
Portuguese newspapers have printed what they claim are extracts from Mrs McCann's diary, written both before and after Madeleine went missing.
The BBC's Jane Hill said police have a photocopy of the diary, which would not be admissible in court.
Mrs McCann's sister-in-law, Philomena McCann, told the Sun newspaper that moves by the Portuguese police to examine the diary were "just another way to stick the knife in".
She said: "I asked Kate to keep this journal because at first the Portuguese police were doing very little.
"So I said to Kate that it would be a good idea if someone wrote down, for Madeleine, notes on everything that was happening, because we have to prove to Madeleine how much we looked for her and how much we love her."
DNA 'match'
Mr and Mrs McCann were made formal suspects - "arguidos" - by the Portuguese police last week.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a match to Madeleine was found in a car hired by the McCanns 25 days after their daughter vanished, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
The McCann family were on holiday at a resort in Praia da Luz in the Algarve when they reported Madeleine missing from their apartment on 3 May.
They returned to their home in Rothley in Leicestershire at the weekend and are currently waiting for a judge to decide if they face charges.
It is understood the couple are planning their own tests on the car.
Meanwhile, the McCanns have met social services representatives to discuss their case.
It is standard procedure for a mother or father named as a suspect overseas to have their case considered by the authorities in their home county on child protection grounds.
Mr and Mrs McCann, who have two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie, met officials from Leicestershire County Council at their home.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6993407.stm
McCann police 'have diary copy'
Portuguese police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have obtained a copy of her mother Kate's diary, the BBC has learned.
A laptop belonging to Madeleine's father Gerry has also been looked at.
The couple have been named as suspects in the disappearance of their four-year-old daughter from their apartment in Praia da Luz, the Algarve.
They have waged a high-profile campaign to find their daughter, and deny any involvement.
Mrs McCann was frequently seen writing her diary in private moments after Madeleine went missing from the family's holiday apartment more than four months ago.
Admissible evidence
Portuguese newspapers have printed what they claim are extracts from Mrs McCann's diary, written both before and after Madeleine went missing.
The BBC's Jane Hill said police have a photocopy of the diary, which would not be admissible in court.
Mrs McCann's sister-in-law, Philomena McCann, told the Sun newspaper that moves by the Portuguese police to examine the diary were "just another way to stick the knife in".
She said: "I asked Kate to keep this journal because at first the Portuguese police were doing very little.
"So I said to Kate that it would be a good idea if someone wrote down, for Madeleine, notes on everything that was happening, because we have to prove to Madeleine how much we looked for her and how much we love her."
DNA 'match'
Mr and Mrs McCann were made formal suspects - "arguidos" - by the Portuguese police last week.
It has been reported that DNA evidence with a match to Madeleine was found in a car hired by the McCanns 25 days after their daughter vanished, but this has been played down by Portuguese police.
The McCann family were on holiday at a resort in Praia da Luz in the Algarve when they reported Madeleine missing from their apartment on 3 May.
They returned to their home in Rothley in Leicestershire at the weekend and are currently waiting for a judge to decide if they face charges.
It is understood the couple are planning their own tests on the car.
Meanwhile, the McCanns have met social services representatives to discuss their case.
It is standard procedure for a mother or father named as a suspect overseas to have their case considered by the authorities in their home county on child protection grounds.
Mr and Mrs McCann, who have two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie, met officials from Leicestershire County Council at their home.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6993407.stm
Analogue Boy
Bar 6
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This is a very strange case.
Even before the recent allegations, I thought it was inevitable the British press (love 'em) would turn on the family. Only a matter of time.
Even before the recent allegations, I thought it was inevitable the British press (love 'em) would turn on the family. Only a matter of time.
Timble2
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I notice that a couple of the papers today are claiming that Madeleine's body has been dumped at sea. I'm surprised that the possiblity of her having been taken by someone aboard a boat, wasn't considered earlier. Or perhaps it has and the story simply hasn't leaked before.
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Timble2 said:
That and the theory that Madeleine had been subject to an overdose seems to have really come to the fore this week too.
OneWingedBird
Beloved of Ra
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one of the tabloids earlier theories involved some middle eastern people abducting her onto their yatch... think 2 or 3 weeks in...
ramonmercado
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ted_bloody_maul said:
I still reckon Louise is innocent. I fell for Louise but never thought she was a femme fatale.
Quake42
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According to this news report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6997429.stm
Richard Branson will now be funding the McCanns' defence!
Seems a slightly odd thing to do... it could end up damaging his reputation and the Virgin brand in a major way...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6997429.stm
Richard Branson will now be funding the McCanns' defence!
Seems a slightly odd thing to do... it could end up damaging his reputation and the Virgin brand in a major way...
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For anybody who does not understand the meaning of irony yet...
Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty
The public is to blame for the heartless abuse being heaped on Kate McCann. The internet has blurred the lines of news and hearsay and the result is trial by global gossip
India Knight
What do you think? Post your comments in the reader feedback section at the bottom of this article
...............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 459924.ece
Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty
The public is to blame for the heartless abuse being heaped on Kate McCann. The internet has blurred the lines of news and hearsay and the result is trial by global gossip
India Knight
What do you think? Post your comments in the reader feedback section at the bottom of this article
...............
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 459924.ece
spiritdoctor
Away with the fairies
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Maybe there's something wrong with me but I think the media should never have lauded these people the way they did and turned them into celebrities. They left their kids to go drinking in a bar and did this regularly. Doesn't the media have some sort of responsibility to promote good parenting and child saftey? Instead we get lots of articles on why it is probably okay to leave your child why the mccanns ar blameless and loving parents. Obviously it can't be okay to leave your children like this because if a serious problem happens, which it did, no one is there. The media could have taken a more half way house attitude, that the mccanns made a mistake they will pay for all their lives but still deserve support, that type of attitude. But they didn't. Obviously the mccanns are going to fall off their pedastal because they didn't belong on it, they are just not particularly good parents.