The Madeleine McCann Disappearance

[Stormkhan]

If innocent of Madeleins disappearance (or now more likely death), her parents are being punished for their complacency every waking hour. They no doubt would be blaming themselves and each other for the disappearance of their daughter.
There is plenty about this whole sorry saga which seems - to us media-informed public - very odd. The parents felt that the local fuzz were less-than-enthusiastic to investigate the case (perhaps with the tourist industry in mind) and took it upon themselves to publicise. This has coloured most public opinion against them ("How could they approach the press at such a time!") and has been utilised by the British media industry.

Ah ... the British media! They were given a cause ... but suddenly came across a police force which was unable to supply them with details on the investigation. This is utterly contrary to UK media - they demand minute-by-minute information, even if inaccurate. Thus, at a loss to fill the pages/minutes of airtime, they took up the McCanns cause and heaped scorn on the Portugese police and their efforts. Now there are leaks (how convenient) from high-placed sources to the media, the UK press are starting to bite the hand that feeds them, i.e. the McCanns and thier PR efforts. The magic wand of DNA "evidence" has produced no further detail but plenty of so-called experts willing to fill airtime.

This is trial-by-UK-press. There's plenty of questions to be answered ... in court. There's loads of discrepancies on both 'sides'; both the parents and the fuzz.

 

[Analogue Boy]

For anybody who does not understand the meaning of irony yet...

Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty

The public is to blame for the heartless abuse being heaped on Kate McCann. The internet has blurred the lines of news and hearsay and the result is trial by global gossip

India Knight

What do you think? Post your comments in the reader feedback section at the bottom of this article


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 459924.ece

Isn't it interesting to see journalist pointing at the hyperbolic frenzy of ....er...journalism?

 

[rynner2]

This is trial-by-UK-press.

The Portuguese press has possibly been worse...

 

[jefflovestone]

For anybody who does not understand the meaning of irony yet...

Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty

The public is to blame for the heartless abuse being heaped on Kate McCann. The internet has blurred the lines of news and hearsay and the result is trial by global gossip

India Knight

What do you think? Post your comments in the reader feedback section at the bottom of this article

Yeah, I'm personally to blame. I forgot that I should obey the media's portrayals of class and authority and not question or speculate on the possibilty that, like many child abuse and murder cases, the perpetrators are often family or friends. I also forgot that it's only working class people that ever commit murder or abuse and it shouldn't have crossed my mind for even the briefest of instances that the McCanns could be guilty themselves. I also forgot that it's not for the likes of us 'mere mortals' - who don't have an media platform to speak from - to voice opinion on current affairs. Best leave that to the middle-class professionals eh, India?

There's a good reason the public are talking about it - it's because daft cows like yourself are writing about it every fucking day. If the media hadn't have leaped on the story in the first place and differentiated between this case and all the other 'missing child' stories, the story would have disappeared fairly early on, like the majority of them (sadly) do.

Also, if you're so concerned about the blurring between news and gossip, why don't you and your bloody friends all resign from your 'lifestyle' columns and let's just have 'hard news' in print media?

The irony in all this is that this wasn't the only Madeleine-related feature the Times had in this issue.

[/boo fucking hoo]

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

For anybody who does not understand the meaning of irony yet...

Madeleine McCann: You are all guilty

The public is to blame for the heartless abuse being heaped on Kate McCann. The internet has blurred the lines of news and hearsay and the result is trial by global gossip

India Knight

What do you think? Post your comments in the reader feedback section at the bottom of this article


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 459924.ece

Isn't it interesting to see journalist pointing at the hyperbolic frenzy of ....er...journalism?

A bit like when TV news goes on location and the journalist says there's a media circus. It's at that point I'd like to be able to watch two news broadcasts simultaneously to see if on the other channel there's a guy pointing back at the other journalist and talking about a media circus.

 

[JamesWhitehead]

jefflovestone: ". . . it's because daft cows like yourself are writing about it every fucking day."

13th, 14th, 15th, 17th . . . I suppose the odd day off lets you off the hook.

 

[Quake42]

Calm down everyone!

Let's be honest - the story is gripping because it has all the hallmarks of a classic mystery tale. It *feels* like a novel or a film rather than real life. I'm unsurprised the media are fascinated with it and I'm unsurprised that many of us are too.

With regards to the McCanns - yes their behaviour has been odd since the start and yes they received a very easy ride from the press until recently. I don't think thisis solely down to social class - part of it is the fact that they are doctors - curiously still a much-loved profession even post-Shipman. If they had been lawyers or accountants I suspect the press coverage would have been much more hostile from the beginning. I'm sorry to say that another factor has been their physical attractiveness - if they had been plain or overweight they would never have been treated with such kid gloves.

One thing that I found strange was that the Foreign Office apparently sent a senior diplomat to Portugal to act as a liaision to the family - surely this isn't common practice when someone gets into difficulties abroad? It does make one pause for thought at some of the conspiracy theories around them and the British elite.

 

[jefflovestone]

jefflovestone: ". . . it's because daft cows like yourself are writing about it every fucking day."

13th, 14th, 15th, 17th . . . I suppose the odd day off lets you off the hook.

The difference is my own opinions are based largely on the fact that this has been treated differently from other 'abducted toddler' news stories right from the start. If it hadn't been for the media's hysteria and differentiation in the first place, frankly, I wouldn't give a shit about the story. It's a tragedy that this girl is more than likely dead but it's no more a tragedy than all the other kids that go missing every year and therefore no more newsworthy. It's the media that are deciding this is more 'newsworthy'.

Also, surely the fact I'm posting on a message board* in my own time is slightly different from someone devoting a column/article/feature and to the same topic, making money in the process, and then having the fucking gall to tell others not to opine or speculate? Let's not forget that it was also a journalist that actually triggered off the whole Murat speculation too.

 

[Stormkhan]

Calm down everyone!
ne thing that I found strange was that the Foreign Office apparently sent a senior diplomat to Portugal to act as a liaision to the family - surely this isn't common practice when someone gets into difficulties abroad?

Whenever a Brit is sent to trial/found guilty abroad, it's fairly standard proceedure for the family and freinds to whine to the FO and demand The Prime Minister intervenes and take them away from the nasty, foreign people and their heartless, harsh laws. This is especially apparent when caught smuggling drugs in a country which has harsh punishment for drug offenses.

In this case, the senior diplomat is in a sticky situation - it's a European country with a legal system that is considered fair.

Latest media gossip is the senior judge has refused to recall the McCanns. Why? Perhaps there is sod all evidence? Perhaps the authorities just want them to bugger off and let the fuss die down? This last point should be considered with the fact that by being made suspects, they've been effectively gagged from speaking about the investigation - not the missing child, mind.

While it's true that generally the nearest relatives are the most suspect in a murder/disappearance, this can only act as a guide to investigation and not as a solution. As soon as the "McCann as suspects" was leaked, it was also leaked that the local fuzz had stiopped looking elsewhere ... something which is considered utterly counterproductive in investigation circles.

 

[Analogue Boy]

With the impressive legal team and backing they have, if taken to court and found innocent, could the McCanns claim for damages as this is now a case of the highest profile? I would imagine the length of the trial would be lengthy and pretty costly too.

 

[Quake42]

With the impressive legal team and backing they have, if taken to court and found innocent, could the McCanns claim for damages as this is now a case of the highest profile? I would imagine the length of the trial would be lengthy and pretty costly too.

Well... it would be a high risk strategy. Remember that defendants are not "found innocent". They are found not guilty, which means that the evidence produced by the prosecution is not enough to convict them "beyond reasonable doubt".

A jury might well decide that they are 80%, 90% certain that a defendant is guilty, but that still leaves ample room for a "reasonable doubt" and the defendant is, quite rightly, acquitted.

A civil case - libel etc - is decided on the balance of probabilities. The jury or judge considering the matter need only decide whether, on balance, one side's version of what happened is more convincing than the other. Evidence which would be inadmissible for whatever reason in the criminal trial might well be allowed in the civil case.

An alleged criminal could be cleared of any criminal wrongdoing but still find themselves losing any future libel action and find their reputation - not to mention their finances - in ruins.

If even a small part of what we have heard over the last couple of weeks about the supposed evidence against the McCanns can be substantiated, I suspect they would be advised strongly against pursuing any civil action.

 

[Quake42]

Whenever a Brit is sent to trial/found guilty abroad, it's fairly standard proceedure for the family and freinds to whine to the FO and demand The Prime Minister intervenes and take them away from the nasty, foreign people and their heartless, harsh laws. This is especially apparent when caught smuggling drugs in a country which has harsh punishment for drug offenses.

In this case, the senior diplomat is in a sticky situation - it's a European country with a legal system that is considered fair.

That doesn't really address my point, which is exactly that people in sticky situations elsewhere may even struggle to get through to the embassy during opening hours... yet this family have a senior diplomat assigned to assist them, despite being in a democratic, safe Western European country.

I cannot imagine for a moment that this is standard practice. Why was it done for them? Why did the British ambassador to the Vatican pull strings to have them meet the Pope?

What on earth is going on?

 

[Analogue Boy]

With the impressive legal team and backing they have, if taken to court and found innocent, could the McCanns claim for damages as this is now a case of the highest profile? I would imagine the length of the trial would be lengthy and pretty costly too.

Well... it would be a high risk strategy. Remember that defendants are not "found innocent". They are found not guilty, which means that the evidence produced by the prosecution is not enough to convict them "beyond reasonable doubt".

A jury might well decide that they are 80%, 90% certain that a defendant is guilty, but that still leaves ample room for a "reasonable doubt" and the defendant is, quite rightly, acquitted.

A civil case - libel etc - is decided on the balance of probabilities. The jury or judge considering the matter need only decide whether, on balance, one side's version of what happened is more convincing than the other. Evidence which would be inadmissible for whatever reason in the criminal trial might well be allowed in the civil case.

An alleged criminal could be cleared of any criminal wrongdoing but still find themselves losing any future libel action and find their reputation - not to mention their finances - in ruins.

If even a small part of what we have heard over the last couple of weeks about the supposed evidence against the McCanns can be substantiated, I suspect they would be advised strongly against pursuing any civil action.

What has been thrown into the equation tonight is that the Twin's DNA could duplicate Madeleine's...hence the traces in the hire car after the disappearance.
Reasonable doubt is a tricky thing. It may be proved in court but could the tabloids be willing to come back from their 'Suspect' stance?

 

[Quake42]

Reasonable doubt is a tricky thing. It may be proved in court but could the tabloids be willing to come back from their 'Suspect' stance?

Well they are suspects, and to be honest should have been so from the start.

My point is that them being found not guilty in a court of law will not necessarily prevent mutterings about their actual guilt and attempting to sue for libel might make things worse. Imagine if they were found not guilty but a libel court subsequently decided that, on the balance of probabilities, the tabloids were probably telling the truth. So, unless all of the mud currently being slung at them is false, I doubt we will see a libel action.

What has been thrown into the equation tonight is that the Twin's DNA could duplicate Madeleine's...hence the traces in the hire car after the disappearance.

So the twins were in the boot? Hmm, interesting. Not sure that I buy it, but we'll see.

 

[Xanatico]

Keep in mind only 13 DNA markers matched, where you usually need 20. Also DNA might be useful when dealing with two people who are strangers to each other, but Madelines family will have such a large percentage of her DNA themselves.

 

[rynner2]

McCann home 'may hold vital information'
By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 4:40pm BST 19/09/2007

Portuguese police believe Kate and Gerry McCann’s house in Britain could hold important information about Madeleine's disappearance, according to press reports.

The couple returned to the family home 10 days ago in Rothley, Leicestershire, just 48 hours after being named formal suspects in their daughter’s disappearance.

Detectives are reported to be preparing to fly to the UK to continue their investigations after the police files outlining their case against Mr and Mrs McCann were passed to investigating judge Pedro Daniel dos Anjos Frias.

He has until tomorrow to approve a number of police requests in relation to the investigation, which according to reports may include new searches and permission to put the McCanns under closer surveillance.

Portuguese newspaper Correio de Manha claimed a request to search the couple’s Leicestershire property had already been approved by Mr Frias.

It claimed requests to re-interview Mr and Mrs McCann, as well as the friends dining with them on the night Madeleine disappeared, had also been granted.

Police are said to be concerned about alleged discrepancies in their stories, with differing time scales and versions of events.

Detectives are also understood to want to take away a number of personal items belonging to the McCanns.

They have already taken a copy of Mrs McCann’s diary, leaving her with the original.

They had to seek formal permission for the diary to be taken because of its personal nature, which was duly approved.

Portuguese newspaper Diario de Noticias claimed three chief inspectors flew to the UK yesterday with an official letter for the Leicestershire police.

But a spokesman for the British force said they had received no formal notification of any Portuguese police visit.

(etc)

http://tinyurl.com/3yc9v6

More smoke and mirrors.

If the McCann home did contain critical evidence, this story will no doubt have caused it to disappear.....

 

[McAvennie]

Their claims today that the bodily fluids found in the boot of the car came from the twins dirty nappies is bizarre. The claim is that they were in such a rush to move from one apartment to another that they just threw everything in the boot of the car.

So, what exactly was the reason for this insane rush to move flats that they were so stressed and deluded that they decided they simply must keep those soiled nappies. I dont know, Im not a parent, maybe carrying used nappies around for several days while on holiday is common practice.

The whole thing is laughable and the worrying thing is that the more this is played out in the media the more likely the 'we cant get a fair trial' card will be played if we ever get a trial at the end of it all. I fear with no body and no confession from the parents we will be stuck with a constant situation where every few months G & K will crop up with a 'find our child, those rotten Portuguese are useless, we are innocent' PR assaults while everyone grows sick of them and secretly assumes they did it.

It actually makes me pray for a day of seeing Diana back on the cover of the Express.

 

[Stormkhan]

That doesn't really address my point, which is exactly that people in sticky situations elsewhere may even struggle to get through to the embassy during opening hours... yet this family have a senior diplomat assigned to assist them, despite being in a democratic, safe Western European country.

I cannot imagine for a moment that this is standard practice. Why was it done for them? Why did the British ambassador to the Vatican pull strings to have them meet the Pope?

What on earth is going on?

In this case, right from the start the McCanns have involved the media into looking for their daughter and - as a result - highlighted the police investigation methods. They have actively questioned the disappearance of their daughter ... in the UK media. This is unusual enough for the FO to take a more active stance. After all, if the government was less-than-prominent in their interest, it would look like (to the media and the general public) that the authorities were careless of the case; nay, even complicit. And this would open the floodgates for UK media for criticism of the European legal system.

This whole sorry case highlights how the British public are so influenced by the British media and, in turn, the British media is influenced by the amount of information - true, false, partial and complete - it can repeat. What it can't supply, it will construct. And the more construction, the more opportunity for error and outright opinionated rubbish.

 

[rynner2]

Another odd angle (and this man's story is almost worth a thread of its own):

Pet cremator is asked: Did you burn Madeleine McCann's body
By Caroline Gammell
Last Updated: 3:55am BST 21/09/2007

A convicted Dutch terrorist who runs a business cremating dead family pets was asked by Portuguese police last night if he had burned the body of Madeleine McCann.

Eef Hoos, 61, uses a site 20 miles from where the four-year-old disappeared. Officers believe Madeleine is dead and that her body has been destroyed.

Two detectives visited Mr Hoos at his run-down farm near Monchique. The property, which has a roundabout and swings in the garden, is marked by a turreted portcullis entrance and guarded by three Alsatians.

From there Mr Hoos operates Creon Starlight, which disposes of animals in huge outdoor ovens built in converted freight containers behind his red-roofed villa.

He said he was asked if a body could have been hidden in one of the dead animal carcasses, but said he told police that he checked everything that was burned.

"I have the names of the people and I see what's in the bags. The police want to see my list of clients," he said.

Mr Hoos said the police asked him if he had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

"They asked if I had spoken with the parents of Madeleine McCann," he said. "They claimed they knew I had spoken to the parents, but it's not true.

"I know there are lots of paedophiles in the area where Madeleine went missing."

He said he told the police he was having an eye operation on May 3, the day Madeleine disappeared.

Two weeks ago, he said, helicopters had hovered above his house for two hours.

Mr Hoos, white-haired and bespectacled, said the police had told him to report to Portimao police station on Monday morning because of his notorious reputation.

He spent seven years in jail in Holland after a series of bomb attacks in 1988, in which one person was seriously injured.

"I blew up a police office, it was political," he said.

Mr Hoos's furnace was shut down in February after neighbours complained about the smell. He still carries out incinerations at a site in Lisbon.

http://tinyurl.com/3cv4ft

 

[escargot]

A convicted Dutch terrorist who runs a business cremating dead family pets

A fine, upstanding citizen.

 

[Anonymous]

"I blew up a police office, it was political," he said.

Mr Hoos's furnace was shut down in February after neighbours complained about the smell.

Fantastic! How on Earth did 'they' find him?

 

[Stormkhan]

Crematoria do not burn 100% of a body - see many articles concerning the 'efficiency' of SHC. Thus, if a child was burned in the furnaces then the bones would be found, after some painstaking investigation. Such as used in 'cleaning' the McCanns hired car to find DNA traces.

Perhaps the Portugese police are going to 'suspect' every person in a fifty mile radius of the resort until someone actually confesses.

 

[Anonymous]

Well maybe they chucked everything in the boot 'cos they knew some sad newspaper fool would be scavenging through their bins if they left anything behind!

 

[Anonymous]

Body Language

Anyone study this type of thing?

No comment. Who's a big bad boy!

 

[escargot]

A body could certainly be illegally disposed of in a crematorium, even a 'pet' one, with little trace remaining. After cremation the ashes/bone fragments are ground up into coarse powder which could easily be disposed of, possibly in the sea. So it's not impossible that this happened.

Of course, depending on how big the animal cremator is, bearing in mind that cats, budgies and dogs are generally smaller than humans, even young ones, there may have been a need for certain adjustments in size of a corpse.

Let's not go there.

 

[escargot]

Latest I've heard, on Sky News, is that Gerry McCann believes that an abductor was already in the apartment when he went back to check an hour before she was found missing.

A door was ajar, which at the time he thought had been opened by Madeleine herself, but which he now thinks may have had someone hiding behind.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Crematoria do not burn 100% of a body - see many articles concerning the 'efficiency' of SHC.

But doesn't this depend upon the method of burning?

Commercial crematoria in North America, at least, regularly advertize that "no actual flames ever touch your beloved one's body." In other words, the process is one of heat-dessication, which can't be all that efficient and which will obviously leave a lot of bones or bone fragments behind.

[Larger bone fragments are broken up in a whirling chamber that works almost exactly like a gem polisher.]

That's one of the (many) reasons I don't trust the Holocaust Deniers when they attempt to demonstrate that mass cremations at Auschwitz were logistically impossible....by using statistics from these ethically-operated commercial crematoria. The Nazis had NO interest in "decently" cremating people.

Question: does the "no flames directly touch the body" dictum apply to PET crematoria? My gut feeling is "No," but I'm more than willing to stand corrected.

 

[Quake42]

Latest I've heard, on Sky News, is that Gerry McCann believes that an abductor was already in the apartment when he went back to check an hour before she was found missing.

A door was ajar, which at the time he thought had been opened by Madeleine herself, but which he now thinks may have had someone hiding behind.

I read that too. Amazing, that such a crucial piece of information occurs to him only four months after his daughter disappears.

One might think that, if you were checking on a small child who had been left alone in an unlocked apartment and found a door open which was previously closed, you might investigate to make sure all is well.

The story about Madeleine being in a creche until 6pm now is also being challenged, with the suggestion that in fact she was last seen by someone other than her parents at 2.30 in the afternoon.

I have to say that the parents' claims become less credible by the hour.

 

[Ravenstone]

I have to say that the parents' claims become less credible by the hour.

Absolutely. For one thing, wasn't Madeleine supposed to be checked on every half hour?

Then we hear that the 'checking on' didn't involve actually going in to the (unlocked, apparently) apartment, but listening at the door. And no-one in the restaurant actually remembers anyone leaving frequently, for short intervals; and the McCanns apparently dined out pretty much every evening, leaving three children under the age of 4 unsupervised and apparently undisturbed.

Whether the McCann's are actualy solely responsible for their daughter's death or not is for the police and any Court to decide, but I'd say they've certainly not told the whole truth regarding their movements on that evening, and that is what would appear to be behind the investigations.

 

[jefflovestone]

I read that too. Amazing, that such a crucial piece of information occurs to him only four months after his daughter disappears.

One might think that, if you were checking on a small child who had been left alone in an unlocked apartment and found a door open which was previously closed, you might investigate to make sure all is well.

The story about Madeleine being in a creche until 6pm now is also being challenged, with the suggestion that in fact she was last seen by someone other than her parents at 2.30 in the afternoon.

I have to say that the parents' claims become less credible by the hour.

I'm sure the police in both countries aren't particularly impressed with this 'new' revelation. Months ago, particularly during the first few days of all this, I could sympathise with and accept suggestions that the McCann's heads would have been completely mashed-in and they weren't acting as you'd expect due to the trauma of what they claim has happened.

However, months down the line, something so fundamental and relevant only just springs to mind? That just seems so weird and unlikely to me. Surely people in that situation would have replayed and relived every second of that day? Mentally going over everything, turning over each and every metaphorical stone?

With regards to cremation, my first job when I left school was an apprenticeship to a family undertakers (now owned by the Co-Op like most of them) and I was always told that a lot of different factors play a part in the reducing the body down. I saw hundreds boxes of collected ashes during that time - it's fucking worrying how often the ashes of deceased with relatives aren't collected - and the contents vary dramatically. Some are a very fine ash whilst others are very 'bitty' to say the least - with some bits larger than you'd hope.