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The Moment An 'Advanced' Alien Race Makes Contact—It's Game Over

OK. I've had a read of Mr. Wheeler's book. I've read one chapter which is 15 minutes of my life I won't get back.

It's really badly written. I'm an average to decent academic writer, generally in post-grad work I get 60-85% for written work. I saw better writing in the 'here are some shite essays you really want avoid' section of the induction lectures.

It's shoddy, dense, verbose and even the experiments are the sort of thing that would loose you marks in A level physics projects, never mind re-writing the laws of physics. There's no control conditions, no peer reviewed write ups, no referenced papers or works. There a continual barrage of unsupported assertions. An example in reference to apparent 'field lines' shown by iron filing on paper over a magnet:

"The reason false-field-lines (iron filings) trace spheres between N to S or S to N in ‘attraction’ rather than perfect parallel lines is because the vacuum seeking equilibrium must trace itself CW to the CCW or CCW to the CW to the Bloch wall (dielectric inertial plane) of the lowest preponderance of Ether pressure," etc etc

The reason 'field lines' appear to be there at all is due to the iron filings being a discontinuous medium arranging themselves in a continuous and smoothly varying magnetic field. There are no magnetic field lines in the first place.
Field lines are drawn in diagrams, in the same way that isobars on a map are artificially drawn, to demonstrate to the reader there is a gradient in the magnetic field strength or pressure as the case may be. One might say the same of contours on a map.

Also the iron filings, magnetise, attract each other, so tend to join up in lines, nice long lines of tiny magnets.

Maxwell's equations perfectly describe the divergence, gradient and curl of magnetic fields in three dimensions and much like QED, work well, have great predictive value and are used daily to design motors, dynamos, you name it, although I'm pleased I probably never have to perform three dimensional matrix maths again.

I cannot afford to waste more time reading this kind of verbiage, it's not science, it's half-informed ramblings with pictures. It's not even a good colouring in book. It's tripe of the worst order.

You really should not read it. It will serve no purpose for you. You're a gate keeper Coal. You've already made your mind up. Your education, whatever it may be, has served it's purpose. Your comments illuminate your mind. It serves no further purpose to engage you. I could just as easily discus this matter with a rock and be equally well informed.

Thank you for validating why, when Aliens Arrive, it's Game Over.
 
Gambeir, you said you'd disengage from this discussion. That is probably a good idea. I've held off responding until now because it isn't my debate, but when you insult a long-term and respected member like Coal, the question has to be asked why you think you have sole right of authority on an issue.

Coal isn't agreeing with you. I can't see anyone else agreeing with you either. Every request for clarification has been met with obfuscation and emotive rebuffs from your end. It all serves to leave me with the impression you've got no real argument and yet for some personal reason are unwilling or unable to concede. If you really believe that everyone who challenges your personal assumptions on a subject like this has been socially and/or educationally co opted, then it follows you will continue to be in conflict on a website where people aim to discuss matters by applying a rational framework.

And to respond to your next post, yes it is part of a rational process to counter OTT blanket claims with requests for proof. If you have to dumb down your theory a bit and lay it out in layman's terms for the sake of we poor saps, then please try. We are open to rational discussion. I think I speak for most by restating that we are interested to learn from you if you have the patience to explain yourself.
 
Just curious about your interest in science and your background in that...no problem. If it bothers you to say...I understand. I'm an Optometrist ...so I do have a science background on multiple levels but never really got interested in physics other than the required classes for my degree.
I didn't really grok a lot of the Wheeler material....as I said not my cuppa. I might try reading it again.
Just curious...are there any 'names' in the science arena who like Wheeler's ideas or is he an outcast to mainstream science?
What levitation are you referring to? Mystical sort or something else..?

I am not a science major Dr Wu, but it is interesting that I now know you're an Optometrist, rays being so interesting and evidently linked to so many things. I am just a normal guy whom with a few others are looking at a technical problem in explaining how to produce a sustained diamagnetic field for practical applications.

This is a technical problem. It isn't an issue of physics. We already know that the information available to explain the effect resorts to quantum physics, and which is then no help at all. We can apply electrical theory to explain the effect by reaching out to such notions as electron clouds moving in shared valence fields as a means to hypothesize that orbital planes traced through the lattices of interconnected atoms formings certain geometric structures could, conceivably, produce a moment of force such that an inertial force of lift may be generated. However, this is stretching it and would require a lot of high power computing to be able to make reasonable projections as to how much energy is needed to produce such effects. Suffice to say that it would be a lot.

Here is a paper which follows this kind of thinking by noted scientists.
Engineering the Zero-Point Field and Polarizable Vacuum for Interstellar Flight H.E. PUTHOFF*, S.R. LITTLE AND M. IBISON http://www.keelynet.com/energy/engzpf.pdf

Such ideas while potentially possible, someday, do not today explain why a substance with no electrical input can produce a diamagnetic effect simply because it's exposed to sufficiently powerful magnetic field. The indication of the interactions seems to indicate that there are crossing lines of force involved, and which have nothing to do with electrical theory or quantum interventons.
 
Gambeir, you said you'd disengage from this discussion. That is probably a good idea. I've held off responding until now because it isn't my debate, but when you insult a long-term and respected member like Coal, the question has to be asked why you think you have sole right of authority on an issue.

Coal isn't agreeing with you. I can't see anyone else agreeing with you either. Every request for clarification has been met with obfuscation and emotive rebuffs from your end. It all serves to leave me with the impression you've got no real argument and yet for some personal reason are unwilling or unable to concede. If you really believe that everyone who challenges your personal assumptions on a subject like this has been socially and/or educationally co opted, then it follows you will continue to be in conflict on a website where people aim to discuss matters by applying a rational framework.

And to respond to your next post, yes it is part of a rational process to counter OTT blanket claims with requests for proof. If you have to dumb down your theory a bit and lay it out in layman's terms for the sake of we poor saps, then please try. We are open to rational discussion. I think I speak for most by restating that we are interested to learn from you if you have the patience to explain yourself.

OK, so now I believe in QED and we are all going to stay retarded and let the aliens win? Is that what you want to hear? Let me know when you conquer gravity using QED because so far I'm not seeing a lot of hope. Coal started this with his nonsense about getting off the forum because QED is the reason computers and cell phones exist.

You people of all people should know that's just not so. You had radar before anyone else had radar. That's microwave technology. You had computers during WWII. There was no QED at that time. All we have today is almost completely due to Telsa. I've told you that there was a break in accepted theories about Universe. Richard Feynman is no idiot, I grant you that, but he is no Telsa either.

Now when you say I haven't given you all the clarification I can, then that's just not so, the fact that Coal is incapable of appreciating what is written is not my fault. I don't disagree that Ken Wheeler's book is a little ruff to read at times, but then I'm not the editor or author, but dismissing it as fictitious pesudoscience is a problem since you yourselves can repeat what he shows in there, and not with a great deal of equipment either. You don't need a hadron collider to validate the things he shows you and that's actually real science; repeatable empricial testing.

You guys don't have to agree with me, just like I don't have to agree with Coal. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just don't like it when someone thinks that something as silly as QED explains an electric motor and then says that I should get off the forum because without QED I wouldn't have a computer. This when Telsa is the reason you've got electricity in your home.

Believe in QED if you want, worship it, whatever. I just thought that maybe you could put yourselves out enough to realize that there's a lot of criticisms about it, and Richard Feynman has about as much to do with modern devices as I do with running the White House.
 
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Such ideas while potentially possible, someday, do not today explain why a substance with no electrical input can produce a diamagnetic effect simply because it's exposed to sufficiently powerful magnetic field. The indication of the interactions seems to indicate that there are crossing lines of force involved, and which have nothing to do with electrical theory or quantum interventons.

Not that this, and other of your theories aren't interesting - they are interesting.

But what might this have to do with the post I started stating:

"The Moment An 'Advanced' Alien Race Makes Contact - It's Game Over"

I would think that this race would be well ahead of your speculations.

But go ahead - have fun while you can - Maybe there is no advanced alien race - Scary thought isn't it?

Or maybe they are so far advanced so as to render your speculations meaningless?

Man being so meaningless that they let the planet and species stew in its own juice - Only appear occasionally as was pointed out a few posts back, where definitive UFO craft were seen around nuclear missile bases and on several occasions literally shut down the missiles - On the other hand there was a case where 'they' almost created a launch.........Would have started WWIII - Maybe they will leave that up to North Korea.

Try speculating on that.
 
Not that this, and other of your theories aren't interesting - they are interesting.

But what might this have to do with the post I started stating:

"The Moment An 'Advanced' Alien Race Makes Contact - It's Game Over"

I would think that this race would be well ahead of your speculations.

But go ahead - have fun while you can - Maybe there is no advanced alien race - Scary thought isn't it?

Or maybe they are so far advanced so are to render your speculations meaningless?

Man being so meaningless that they let the planet and species stew in its own juice - Only appear occasionally as was pointed out a few posts back, where definitive UFO craft were seen around nuclear missile bases and on several occasions literally shut down the missiles - On the other hand there was a case where 'they' almost created a launch.........Would have started WWIII - Maybe they will leave that up to North Korea.

Try speculating on that.

First of all they aren't my theories. Second, yes..lets do get back to the crux of the thread. Thirdly, I'm sorry for this idiocy which has overtaken myself and others by diverting this otherwise great thread idea.
 
OK ... In the spirit of returning to the original theme(s) of this thread ...

The famous scientist Stephen Hawking has warned us not to be too eager to try to make contact with hypothetical aliens - He has aptly pointed out the American Indians making contact with Columbus and the ensuing tragedy befalling them afterwards.

I agree with the sentiment and warnings Hawking expressed, but I can't say I agree with the way he framed it ...

IMHO the biggest issue relating to alien contact is whether or not we (humans) would recognize it as a contact in the first place. The reason this is an issue is the same reason why the notion of any presumptive scenario (and response on our part) has to be qualified with respect to a major bias.

We humans, generation after generation, have considered ourselves the 'crown of creation' - i.e., the superlative end product of earth's history. The fact that prior generations have consistently demonstrated they didn't deserve such a self-attribution is a heavy clue that we've been deluding ourselves as to how great we are.

I mention this because the 'crown of creation' conceit is but one facet of a deeper bias - i.e., the notion that all things everywhere correlate with what we (think we ... ) know and how we see ourselves. Early cultures tended to project human-like qualities onto inanimate objects (animism) as our earliest form of explaining nature. Later cultures abstracted things, but remained firmly rooted in the homo-centric bias, by shifting to human-like gods and / or other folkloric and mythic beings that always seemed to resemble ourselves. Sure, we abstracted even farther to a single omnipotent super-figure, but we still claimed we reflected its / His form.

We can't help but project our peculiar nature, history, and experiences onto all notions of what it's like to be an apex entity - whether it's in the context of a single society, an individual planet, or the entire universe.

The two things we congratulate ourselves for (and which are cited by the OP) are:

- Advanced status - most typically with regard to technical prowess and products, but also secondarily with regard to 'maturity' or elevated outlook.

- Intelligence - almost always encrusted with the same loosely defined connotations and misleading spins we attribute to that quality in humans - i.e., a capacity for rational / logical thought and accumulation of technical / scientific knowledge.

... both of which are framed in familiar human terms that we project onto the notion of 'aliens' just as we've always consistently projected our contemporary self-constructed vision of ourselves onto most everything else.

My point is that we assume any alien species that is capable of interstellar travel must be 'advanced' and 'intelligent' on our own terms. Granted, this is the only basis we have for speculating about such things. However, we've proven ourselves wrong repeatedly over the centuries, and there's no particular reason to assume we're any less self-deluded now than at any time in the past.

Whether you're talking about medical experimentation, kidnapping, slavery, or armed conflict, the dangers we see in alien contact are unavoidably of the same nature as what we humans have done to each other for millennia.

It's important to look back at Hawking's standard illustration for the dangers - the arrival of Europeans in the New World (Americas). Yes, the arrogant Euros eventually overwhelmed and subjugated the native populations through deliberate actions and technological advantage. However, the single most important factor in achieving this subjugation were the diseases introduced by the newcomers - diseases their own best 'science' couldn't explain or reliably treat, and whose causes were microscopic life forms they didn't even know existed. Wells' War of the Worlds wasn't 'won' because of human bravery or military prowess - it was 'won' by bacteria.

There's no solid reason for assuming aliens would be anything like us - either biologically, technologically, psychologically, or culturally - except for our own arrogance. As a result, the more pressing problems to consider aren't what human-like atrocities the presumptively human-like aliens would perpetrate, but rather:

- whether we'd recognize any arrival / presence / 'contact' in the first place;

- whether any such contact would necessarily induce any sort of conflict of the sort we perpetually undertake in such situations;

- whether any conflict or power struggle would necessarily be decided by the same means as we humans consistently employ to resolve our own differences; and ...

- how much more 'advanced' and 'intelligent' must we become before we can reasonably envision what the possibilities may be once we can shake off our self-reflecting biases?


Imagine, if you will, species of beings making Humans seem dumb - Not too hard to imagine if you think about it.

Not hard at all ... We humans are the original, most effective, and most masterful antagonists to have done it to date, and I predict no other species will ever surpass us in this regard!

:evillaugh:
 
Speculation:

No direct disclosure will occur - Any advanced race of intelligences will see a species {Human} full of conflict and disunity - Why would they attempt contact with such beings?

The tendency and anecdotal evidence indicates 'watch, observe, and collect data'.

After a certain amount of observation the species {Alien} will decide on how to proceed - this will strongly depend on what agendas the alien species have for themselves - Conquest and control or intellectual understanding of the existent state.

The probability is if the aliens think Man is dangerous and yet may proceed out into the deep fathoms of space, they will eliminate the species Man - Say by using a psychotic dictator from North Korea to launch WWIII.

But if they are benign and can see some empathy to the Human race - They, may rather, take control of the species Man - Say by infiltrating his AI and the internet.



"THE PHILOSOPHY OF ALIENS"
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassociation.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-philosophy-of-aliens_8.html
 
All your listed speculations are conceivably 'in play'. However ...

All are framed within the homo-centric biases I cited.

Of these, I would say the first two you mention:

- whether contact would even be attempted
- the likelihood of observation being the first - and perhaps sole - activity

... are general enough to probably apply, though we cannot make assumptions about the rationale(s) or motivation(s) that might actually underlie these actions.

The remainder are burdened with homo-centric bias, and the bias is (IMHO) our biggest impediment and vulnerability in dealing with any truly alien contact that may occur.
 
Coal, it's not that you don't fit into my world view.

I cannot afford to waste time exchanging meaningless tit for tat.



You're hopeless Coal...you don't know what science is obviously.

Don't feel obligated to reply to any poster. It would be better not to do so if you only wish only to tell them that a discussion with then is a waste of time and that they don't understand science.

If anybody were posting that about you, I would now be writing to chastise them.
 
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The remainder are burdened with homo-centric bias, and the bias is (IMHO) our biggest impediment and vulnerability in dealing with any truly alien contact that may occur.
I agree - there is some weight to the idea that intelligence (as we define it) is something that evolves in creatures that exhibit a level of social activity in groups, so intelligent life elsewhere must have evolved in a similar way (whether squids or sentient lichens).

The universe is a big place and all the other possible ways that life/intelligent life can evolve, but for the odds stacked against those processes here, could have happened somewhere.

We, for the most part, probably don't even know or conceive of many other ways intelligent life could evolve. So we've no idea what forms they might take or how they might view us.
 
Excuse me, an earlier poster in this thread drew a similarity between the Borg and Space Gypsies..., As a card carrying member of the space gypsies I really must point out that there is no connection -real or implied- between space gypsies and the Borg. We space gypsies don't really want to assimilate anything and much prefer to read tea leaves, move around a bit on planet and inter-galactically. and generally keep to ourselves. It's a lifestyle choice and you can resist all you want.

Frankly, my fellow space gypsies thought about taking over planet Earth some time ago. Gave it a miss really, I mean why go to all that bother over a tiny blue-green full of uppity bi-peds? Who can't even get the science right?
 
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... We, for the most part, probably don't even know or conceive of many other ways intelligent life could evolve. So we've no idea what forms they might take or how they might view us.

We also have no solid basis for assuming:

- whether they have invested as much dependence in technology as we have;
- whether they've been motivated to apply technologies to transport themselves long distances; or
- whether they've elected to explore what lies beyond their atmosphere, much less their solar system.
 
We also have no solid basis for assuming:

- whether they have invested as much dependence in technology as we have;
- whether they've been motivated to apply technologies to transport themselves long distances; or
- whether they've elected to explore what lies beyond their atmosphere, much less their solar system.
Exactly. human motivation to explore might be said to be motivated by the Jungian idea that some of us need to conquer the chaos beyond the pale or the light-circle of the campfire, as part of personal exploration as much as geographical.

This might be coupled with the restless need to climb the social dominance hierarchy, which if stifled by local conditions, might best be done by going somewhere new and setting up a new hierarchy with you further up...

As that's all down to the proto-human tree-dwelling, snake-bashing residual instinct, anything that evolved in wildly different conditions would be motivated (or not) entirely differently.
 
I am not a science major Dr Wu, but it is interesting that I now know you're an Optometrist, rays being so interesting and evidently linked to so many things. I am just a normal guy whom with a few others are looking at a technical problem in explaining how to produce a sustained diamagnetic field for practical applications.

This is a technical problem. It isn't an issue of physics. We already know that the information available to explain the effect resorts to quantum physics, and which is then no help at all. We can apply electrical theory to explain the effect by reaching out to such notions as electron clouds moving in shared valence fields as a means to hypothesize that orbital planes traced through the lattices of interconnected atoms formings certain geometric structures could, conceivably, produce a moment of force such that an inertial force of lift may be generated. However, this is stretching it and would require a lot of high power computing to be able to make reasonable projections as to how much energy is needed to produce such effects. Suffice to say that it would be a lot.

Here is a paper which follows this kind of thinking by noted scientists.
Engineering the Zero-Point Field and Polarizable Vacuum for Interstellar Flight H.E. PUTHOFF*, S.R. LITTLE AND M. IBISON http://www.keelynet.com/energy/engzpf.pdf

Such ideas while potentially possible, someday, do not today explain why a substance with no electrical input can produce a diamagnetic effect simply because it's exposed to sufficiently powerful magnetic field. The indication of the interactions seems to indicate that there are crossing lines of force involved, and which have nothing to do with electrical theory or quantum interventons.
Thanks for the reply...but as I said electrical and magnetic theory as it relates to physics is not my bag....and I'm not sure what it has to do with 'aliens and the game over' themes presented by the OP. I always keep an open mind about science so perhaps some of these things you embrace regarding the problems with science will become clear one day...if not , so be it.
 
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As several here have already mentioned we have no idea what might motivate an alien race (alien being the key word here..) so any speculation about what they might or might not do when encountering a less advanced species is just that...speculation. For all we know they might be intergalactic altruistic peace keepers and provide us all with a life of luxury from now until eternity. (see The Culture series by Iaan Banks for a similar frame of reference)
 
- whether they have invested as much dependence in technology as we have;
- whether they've been motivated to apply technologies to transport themselves long distances; or
- whether they've elected to explore what lies beyond their atmosphere, much less their solar system.
To add to this, and referencing the mention of the Borg (for example), we also tend to project human morality onto other species, let alone aliens. Things like compassion and empathy, or territorialism and tribalism may not even feature in their psyche. We expect first contact to be either (thanks as usual to sci-fi, Star Trek especially) peaceable, inquisitive Vulcan types or ruthless conquerors, or occasionally the first type but with an awesome force behind them (Klaatu). What we don't consider is what if we don't actually matter one iota to them. They're not out to conquer us, enslave us, destroy us or even talk to us. We're no different from a dairy herd or an ant's nest.

I think that's what we find frightening. We might be meaningless beyond our own collective ego.
 
Thanks for the reply...but as I said electrical and magnetic theory as it relates to physics is not my bag....and I'm not sure what it has to do with 'aliens and the game over' themes presented by the OP. I always keep an open mind about science so perhaps some of these things you embrace regarding the problems with science will become clear one day...if not , so be it.

Probably not one dang thing Dr. Wu, other than possibly assuaging our own fears about technological inferiority.
 
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Not necessarily. I will settle for a semiclassical explanation lol.

That's awfully generous of you.

How about you just play the card you are itching to play with a flourish and we forget the rhetorical gambit?

lol.
 
That's awfully generous of you.

How about you just play the card you are itching to play with a flourish and we forget the rhetorical gambit?

lol.
I will as soon as Gambier answers ;)
 
AlienView,

Yes, there is a lot of this kind of thing about. And some of it really seems to be actual fact.

But proof positive is never there. And this is the problem.

We can never tell what is real, what is deception or even what is outright lying.

The real stopper is...

When these objects apparently disappear, where do they go ?

Until one can show that there even is another 'realm' that they may originate from, it is all speculation.

For someone like myself who treats everything logically, it really is frustrating.

The words of ex-astronauts or retired generals, CIA, FBI, NSA officials doesn't mean a thing without some solid object on the table or an explanation from accredited scientists that there actually is 'somewhere else'.

INT21
 
The words of ex-astronauts or retired generals, CIA, FBI, NSA officials doesn't mean a thing without some solid object on the table or an explanation from accredited scientists that there actually is 'somewhere else'.
It's annoying isn't it? We have a lot of evidence that a lot of people think they saw something. But no 'thing'.
 
Leta,

..Logic does not a reality make...

But it goes a long way towards separating the wheat from the chaff.

INT21
 
Coal,

Yes, very annoying.

Makes one wonder if there is any real 'thing' there at all.

Perhaps it is all in the eye of the beholder.


I don't think that is so. In fact I feel as sure as I can that there is something 'to it'. But also feel we are missing some vital part of physics that would allow us to unravel the mystery.

Maybe one day......

INT21
 
Statistically there is probably intelligent life out there but also there are an incredible amount of variables involved in them creating a technology capable of communicating or travelling across space.
Here's a few thoughts. Sci-fi, but the possibilities are plausible I think.

Opposable thumbs. The manual dexterity we've used to create complex fighter aircraft.
The glass tubes needed in chemistry. Televisions. Down to dexterity.

Longevity. It has to be long enough to pass on information. Mayflies aren't gonna invent bugger all. What if an alien society is cannabalistic, or in Logan's Run style executes teens?

Environment. Combustion got us into space. So what about aquatic species? Ever see a dolphin driving a bus?


This why these species are typically described a being humanoid. But out there what are the chances?

A DNA imperative. Man has got where he has through competition and cooperation. A lot of which involves impressing a mate. What about a reproductive system like parthenogenesis where life just goes on without a need for competitive reproduction?

Eyes and the spectrum. What if the litmus paper only turns grey? We take our range of vision for granted but what if it had less range... or for that matter, more? We detect elements and environments of planets on a spectral scale.

Play. Equals creativity and learning. What if there's no time in a day for that? What if each minute is a battle for survival?

Cilmate. A planet of howling gales. How much progress in flight experiments could be made? Ice making fabrications brittle and unusable? A window of opportunity one week in their solar year?

Desire. The will to reach beyond the limitations. Do we think it would be an ambition of all species? Certainly doesn't apply to crocodiles.

You see what I'm getting at. Even though there may be intelligent species out there, the physiology, environment, culture and an almost infinite number of other variables lessens the odds of them hopping here every other tuesday dramatically.
 
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