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The Roswell Incident [1947]

Cavynaut said:
Only tangentially linked perhaps, but Stalin did order experimentation on human/ape crossbreeding in a quest to create a 'super-soldier'.
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Wasn't this debunked by Nick Redfern ?
 
Analis said:
Wasn't this debunked by Nick Redfern ?
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I don't know. John Grey mentions it in "Black Mass" but doesn't source it as far I remember.
 
So the premise of this story is that as the cold war began Stalin decided to hand the Americans a huge propaganda victory by giving them concrete evidence that they, the Soviets, were experimenting on children, which the Americans then decided not to capitalise on.

Annie Jacobsen has interviewed former employees at Area 51;
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la ... 4077.story.
Strangely though Dr Mengele and Stalin don’t seem to have featured in their accounts.

This is the same Annie Jacobsen who’s highlighted the danger of transporting Syrian musicians on American domestic flights.

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArt ... RTID=12188

From that article it’s hard to understand why the officials on the plane wondered whether Jacobsen herself was in fact a terrorist diversion. That said they have a slightly different version of what happened.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp
 
Roswell lumbers on:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/roswell-ufo-cover-up_n_904039.html

Roswell UFO Controversy: Former Air Force Officer Says Gen. Ramey Lied To Cover Up Space Ship Crash

First Posted: 7/22/11

The Roswell UFO controversy may be 64 years old, but it shows no sign of heading into retirement.

One thing we know for sure: On July 8, 1947, the front page of the Roswell Daily Record proclaimed that a flying saucer had been captured by the Roswell Army Air Field.

The U.S. Air Force had issued a press release that day stating that a flying saucer had been "captured," and photos were released of soldiers examining metallic-looking objects, presumably pieces of a crashed balloon.

Then the controversy began. At a press conference later that day in Ft. Worth, Texas, Air Force Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey essentially recanted the entire story, announcing instead that the debris was simply pieces of a fallen weather balloon.

Speculation of what really happened has never truly ended. George Filer, a retired Air Force intelligence officer, told The Huffington Post that he believes Ramey was forced to lie about the Roswell incident.

And, in news that will come as a shock even to ardent UFO researches, he told The Huffington Post in an exclusive interview that Ramey's wife told him he was "embarrassed about having to lie about the weather balloon."

Over his 20-year career, Filer regularly briefed generals and congressmen about a wide range of security issues, including UFO sightings, up through the Vietnam War.

"It is my opinion that President Truman was there [at Fort Worth] and that he made the decision that it should be held at the highest levels," Filer said.

"The reason I believe that is that I had talked with Mrs. Ramey. She would never admit that she knew anything about aliens, but she did say that [her husband] was very embarrassed about having to lie about the weather balloon -- he was very upset about that."

YouTube Link. UFO: A Cover Up No:12 (Maj. George A. Filer, III, ret. USAF Intelligence Officer)

"She also admitted that they became good friends with the Trumans," Filer added. "My point is: How does a one-star general become a good friend with the president of the United States?"

None of this comes as a surprise to former nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman. He's the original civilian investigator of the Roswell UFO incident and the most outspoken scientist who believes there is overwhelming evidence that alien spacecrafts are visiting Earth. He, too, has talked with Mrs. Ramey.

"From talking to her, I had no reason to believe A) that she knew intimate details about Roswell or any other such event; or B) that she made up this story because it is consistent with a man of reasonable character who followed orders as one would certainly have expected him to," Friedman said.

Both Filer and Friedman -- the military man and the scientist -- said they believe the Roswell UFO was an alien spacecraft, that Earth is currently visited by extraterrestrials and that only individuals with very specific "need to know" credentials have access to this information. Both are speaking at next week's MUFON Symposium in Irvine, Calif.

"We are being visited on a regular basis -- probably for thousands of years -- by aliens from other planets," Filer said. "Their technology is much more advanced than what we have. Even though we don't like to think of ourselves in this way, in a lot of ways, we're primitive compared to them."

...
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Weather balloon, or alien spacecraft? For some the jury is still out. :confused:
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/roswell-ufo-cover-up_n_904039.html"The reason I believe that is that I had talked with Mrs. Ramey. She would never admit that she knew anything about aliens, but she did say that [her husband] was very embarrassed about having to lie about the weather balloon -- he was very upset about that."
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The lie he may have been embarrased about was referring to the balloon as a weather balloon; in fact, the most likely candidate for the balloon launch was a part of the secret Mogul program, designed to spy on Russia- even though that particular launch apparently was not completely functional, it still seems to have been classified as secret, perhaps even top secret.

If Mrs Ramey did not mention aliens, there is no good reason to suspect that they were involved.
 
Not just one but three bare naked URLs!

On a hoary old subject like Roswell I can't be bothered with stuff that I've probably seen before unless I'm given a clue as to the content and how new it is. :evil:
 
Fair point - please, if you're going to post links, give them some form of context with at least a comment. Just posting URLs isn't really cricket.
 
rynner2 said:
Not just one but three bare naked URLs!

On a hoary old subject like Roswell I can't be bothered with stuff that I've probably seen before unless I'm given a clue as to the content and how new it is. :evil:
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They are supposedly new videos, I haven't seen them before.

Well made.
 
So let me get this right. After WW2, Nazimaniac Dr. Mengele and Stalin joined forces with The Red Skull to create a bunch of SuperApe Soldiers (that would be guaranteed not to turn on their Masters) as well as a range of Muto-orphans designed to look like aliens that looked unlike the fishy, robotoid, winged lizard creatures seen every month in the sci-fi fiction periodicals of the time.

Given that there had to be a choice of which of these Top Secret projects should be rolled out onto an international stage, and assuming that like an Olympic sports project, they had to be achievable in the same time frame...they chose the Mutant Children and flew them in a remote-controlled UFO and crashed it into the States.


Is this what's replacing history now?
 
jimv1 said:
So let me get this right. After WW2, Nazimaniac Dr. Mengele and Stalin joined forces with The Red Skull to create a bunch of SuperApe Soldiers (that would be guaranteed not to turn on their Masters) as well as a range of Muto-orphans designed to look like aliens that looked unlike the fishy, robotoid, winged lizard creatures seen every month in the sci-fi fiction periodicals of the time.

Given that there had to be a choice of which of these Top Secret projects should be rolled out onto an international stage, and assuming that like an Olympic sports project, they had to be achievable in the same time frame...they chose the Mutant Children and flew them in a remote-controlled UFO and crashed it into the States.


Is this what's replacing history now?
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No. not at all.
 
eburacum said:
The lie he may have been embarrased about was referring to the balloon as a weather balloon; in fact, the most likely candidate for the balloon launch was a part of the secret Mogul program, designed to spy on Russia- even though that particular launch apparently was not completely functional, it still seems to have been classified as secret, perhaps even top secret.
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For that, project Mogul would have had to be classified. But it is now well established that it was not secret nor were its devices (only the data collected was), and that the military took no precautions in their handling and retrieval.
 
Perhaps if they had taken more care they wouldn't have lost so many balloons.

The highly sensitive microphone included in most such flights was a vital part of the operation, and I can imagine them going into a panic when they failed to find one - it might have been stolen by enemy agents, perhaps. But in all probability that particular balloon didn't have one. The launch was abandoned half-way through , but the balloons were still released to test the tracking systems. I can imagine the powers-that-be getting into a tizzy over the possible theft of sensitive equipment belonging to what was certainly a secret project.
 
But had the equipment really been sensitive, they would have taken more care...
What we know, is that they didn't care for the Mogul trains. It is widely demonstrated by their handling of the wreckage from all known Mogul flights. Like Flight 6, Flight 7 (contemporary of Roswell), despite that some of the material was stolen, the Danforth incident on 23 September, when they believed that it could be a part of a Mogul Flight, and all later flights that were retrieved. Plus the fact that they didn't care to look after the flights after they had crashed to retrieve the material, despite that they had tracked them by radar. They just waited for somebody to find and report them, as was the case in all previous examples.
They just used to put sticks on the material with a return adress ! Definitely not a way to handle highly classified, sensitive projects ! Their behaviour was inconsistent with the Roswell event.

The only kind of microphone used by project Mogul was the same unclassified sonobuoy. The possibility that a different, secret type of microphone could have been used in some Mogul flights has been searched, to no avail (this was discussed in some of the Kevin Randle blog threads). Nothing of the sort appears in the Mogul archives, all declassified. In fact, there was indeed a classified project to develop a new microphon, but its whereabouts are known because its archives are now declassified too. They were built and tested only years later.

Relating to the degree and the nature of the classification of the Mogul Project, I will refer to the links I had posted. A number of other facts confirm this interpretation. Notably that, as was discussed on another thread, the name Mogul was mentionned by the press during the debunking demonstrations held by the military around 10 July. Or that during the Danforth incident, this was a mere Army engineer who suggested that the material found could come from a Mogul equipment. Evidencing that the name was already well-known at the time.
 
eburacum said:
The launch was abandoned half-way through , but the balloons were still released to test the tracking systems.
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Maybe there is a confusion with Flight 9 ? If the nature of what was called 'Flight 4' can't be known with certainty, an answer can be given with a high probability. The take-off of the complete Mogul train was delayed because of cloud cover on early 4 July, but it was sent one day later, and then called Flight 5.
In-between, another cluster was launched. There is now a wide agreement that it was not the same train, notwithstanding the confusing interpretation of the late Charles Moore. Otherwise, Crary would have written something like "could at last launch the train later when conditions were good". It was, from Crary's own description, probably a test of the sonobuoy.

Brad Sparks gave a good summary of these finds here :

http://www.ufoupdateslist.com/2007/apr/m23-013.shtml

[......]
But we have a contemporary record that tells us the answer. It's
in Moore's NYU final report of 1948 which tabulates the flights
but skips Flight 4 (and a few others). The Table VII Summary of
NYU Constant-Level Balloon Flights states for the next day's
Flight 5 on June 5, 1947:

(Mogul) Flight 5: "First successful flight carrying a heavy
load."

If Flight 5 was the "first successful flight" then Flight 4 must
not have occurred because if it had been tracked by the B-17
chase plane for 75 miles and stayed aloft for almost 8 hours as
Moore claims, and did so by duplicating the Flight 5's
successful constant-altitude profile almost exactly, as Moore
also claims, and was constructed the same as Flight 5 with the
same "heavy load" of constant- altitude ballast equipment and
CRT-1A sonobuoy as Moore claims, then Flight 4 would have been
the "first successful flight" and it would have been listed that
way, instead of Flight 5.

[......]

Indeed it looks like Flight 5 itself WAS the postponed Flight 4,
the exact same balloons and equipment but delayed one more day
in launch (in fact the same launch had been delayed 3 days in a
row). If you study the Crary diary entries and the 1948
tabulation it is evident that it took 1-2 days of work to
construct the large Mogul balloon trains. If Flight 4 had been
launched later on June 4 then the NYU team would not have had
enough time to build an entirely new 600-foot Mogul balloon
array, to be called Flight 5, in time for the preferred early
morning 5 AM launch time, the very next day on June 5.

The NYU group was busy on most of June 4 and could not spend the
day on building a new Mogul balloon train so soon. Yet they had
a 600-foot balloon train all ready to go at 5 AM on June 5. It
must have been the already-built but delayed Flight 4 now
renamed "Flight 5." The small "cluster of balloons" launched
later on June 4 must have been given the name "Flight 4," and
was not officially logged in the NYU final report because it did
not involve the constant-level balloon devices which were the
main focus of their AF contract work. It ended up just being a
makeshift last-minute test of the sonobuoy device which was
partially a failure.
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So, what we can say with certainty is that Flight 5 was the first 'true', complete Mogul balloon train. And that it was in fact originally intended to be Flight 4, but delayed. So this number was probably given to the test flight of the sonobuoy mentionned in Crary's diaries.
And the mystery of why the base of Roswell and the military hierarchy was involved in such a stir remains complete... The debunking demonstrations of the following days may offer a partial answer, although I doubt this context could account for all.
 
65 years later, Roswell rumbles on. This episode: the cardboard box of the mysteries in the CIA filing cupboard of doom.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...brandon_n_1657077.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Roswell UFO Was Not Of This Earth And There Were ET Cadavers: Ex-CIA Agent Says

Huffington Post. Lee Speigel. 07/08/2012

Happy anniversary, Roswell, N.M. It was 65 years ago today that the Roswell Daily Record blasted an infamous headline claiming local military officials had captured a flying saucer on a nearby ranch. And now, a former CIA agent says it really happened.

"It was not a damn weather balloon -- it was what it was billed when people first reported it," said Chase Brandon, a 35-year CIA veteran. "It was a craft that clearly did not come from this planet, it crashed and I don't doubt for a second that the use of the word 'remains' and 'cadavers' was exactly what people were talking about."

Brandon served as an undercover, covert operations officer in the agency's Clandestine Service for 25 years, where he was assigned missions in international terrorism, counterinsurgency, global narcotics trafficking and weapons smuggling. He spent his final 10 years of CIA service on the director's staff as the agency's first official liaison to the entertainment and publication industries. It was during this time, in the mid-1990s, that he walked into a special section of CIA headquarters in Langley, Va., called the Historical Intelligence Collection.

"It was a vaulted area and not everybody could get in it," Brandon told The Huffington Post. "One day, I was looking around in there and reading some of the titles that were mostly hand-scribbled summations of what was in the boxes. And there was one box that really caught my eye. It had one word on it: Roswell.

"I took the box down, lifted the lid up, rummaged around inside it, put the box back on the shelf and said, 'My god, it really happened!'"

What exactly did the box contain that had such a powerful impact on Brandon?

"Some written material and some photographs, and that's all I will ever say to anybody about the contents of that box," he said. "But it absolutely, for me, was the single validating moment that everything I had believed, and knew that so many other people believed had happened, truly was what occurred,"

None of this comes as a surprise to Stanton T. Friedman, a nuclear-physicist-turned-UFOlogist, who was the original civilian investigator of the Roswell UFO incident.

In the late 1970s, Friedman began to uncover former military eyewitnesses who had been involved with the original events that took place at Roswell in 1947.

Despite the fact that the military changed its story overnight, saying on July 8, 1947 that a flying disk had been captured but claiming on July 9 that a weather balloon had been recovered, Friedman's early investigative efforts prompted many Roswell witnesses to come forward and tell their stories. Numerous researchers have dug up more facts in the years since.

"It's been 65 years since things took place at Roswell," Friedman told HuffPost. "How much more widely known could it be -- everywhere I've spoken in the world, they ask about Roswell."

"What we really need now is the Woodward-Bernstein of the UFO world to bring out the disclosure," said Friedman. "Maybe Chase Brandon is a foresight of something going on.

"It's time for the retirement of the mythical part -- where we don't have all the pieces -- to be replaced by the true story of what happened, all the details, and we certainly don't have them."

Brandon is currently promoting his book, "The Cryptos Conundrum," a science fiction story about the history of Earth, contact with extraterrestrials and imagined cataclysmic events on our planet.

He remains steadfast about the pieces of the Roswell puzzle he's willing to share, and he emphasizes there's no internal CIA policy that prevents him from revealing any details of what he saw in that box at the agency headquarters.

"Nobody tells any of us that we can't say anything about sources, methods, classified information having to do with working for the Central Intelligence Agency," Brandon said. "We all sign a secrecy agreement that says we understand we are forbidden to do that by law, and that is an inherent part of keeping and safeguarding what we do, how we do it, why we do it, out of national security concerns.

"I'm not reluctant to talk about it -- I won't talk about it. I'm telling you there was a box that had stuff in there having to do with Roswell, and I looked through it, and it validated everything I believed in, and that's all I have to say about it. I will go to my grave being mindful of the two hats that I wear: My personal one and the one that will forever reside on my head as a former CIA officer."
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Would anything to do with Roswell, aliens or no, have fallen under the auspices of the CIA? Who could fit everything they had on it, all those photos of the first ever alien spaceship and occupants discovered, into one box which was then left in some general archive without intensely restrictive classification?
how does Brandon manage to reveal that it was a spaceship and they were aliens then go all coy about the specifics ?
Bet he had to stand on a box labelled 'Ark Of The Covenant' to reach it down.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
Would anything to do with Roswell, aliens or no, have fallen under the auspices of the CIA? Who could fit everything they had on it, all those photos of the first ever alien spaceship and occupants discovered, into one box which was then left in some general archive without intensely restrictive classification?
how does Brandon manage to reveal that it was a spaceship and they were aliens then go all coy about the specifics ?
Bet he had to stand on a box labelled 'Ark Of The Covenant' to reach it down.
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I think you have a point there. It really wouldn't fit into just one box.
 
I bet he was looking in the wrong box. He probably found a box with 'written material and photographs' from the Aztec hoax, and didn't know the difference, or possibly forgot it afterwards. Lots of other people have made the same mistake.
 
eburacum said:
I bet he was looking in the wrong box. He probably found a box with 'written material and photographs' from the Aztec hoax, and didn't know the difference, or possibly forgot it afterwards. Lots of other people have made the same mistake.
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Could be!
 
I look back with real nostalgia to a time when the paragraph that impressed me most would not have been:

"Brandon is currently promoting his book, "The Cryptos Conundrum," a science fiction story about the history of Earth, contact with extraterrestrials and imagined cataclysmic events on our planet." :(

edit: missed e in impressed corrected
 
I don't think we can hazard to guess the size of the box that holds records and data about the Roswell incident - especially since we don't know how many boxes there are, and in what way the CIA might file it's records on an incident like this, or even if the CIA would at all.

Anyone know if he has been verified as a real ex-CIA agent, and if the story is even legit?

If yes to both, what would the Roswell skeptics say about his intent? Misinformation, red herring, etc? If so, it seems ridiculously unlikely that the government would use a former employee to move the Roswell information campaign in the WRONG direction on purpose, just to throw us off.
 
Roswell UFO Crash: There Were 2 Crashes, Not 1, Says Ex-Air Force Official

The 1947 UFO controversy of Roswell, N.M. is like a bad penny: It keeps turning up.

The legend, rehashed by conspiracy theorists in countless documentaries, revolves around allegations that an unusual object fell from the sky -- an object so bizarre that the U.S. Air Force issued a press release that a flying saucer had crashed.

That story was quickly recanted, creating what would become one of the greatest urban legends in American history.

Until now, most debunkers doubted that there was even one crash. Now, in an exclusive interview, retired Air Force Lt. Col. Richard French told The Huffington Post that there were actually two crashes.

This revelation is especially remarkable considering that French was known in the past to debunk UFO stories.

"There were actually two crashes at Roswell, which most people don't know," French told HuffPost. "The first one was shot down by an experimental U.S. airplane that was flying out of White Sands, N.M., and it shot what was effectively an electronic pulse-type weapon that disabled and took away all the controls of the UFO, and that's why it crashed."

French -- an Air Force pilot who was in Alamagordo, N.M., in 1947, being tested in an altitude chamber, an annual requirement for rated officers -- was very specific in how the military allegedly brought down what he believes was a spacecraft from another world.

"When they hit it with that electromagnetic pulse -- bingo! -- there goes all their electronics and, consequently, the UFO was uncontrollable," said French, who flew hundreds of combat missions in Korea and Southeast Asia, and who held several positions working for Military Intelligence.

Another retired officer doubts French's story.

"No chance! Zero chance!" said Army Col. John Alexander, whose own top-secret clearance gave him access in the 1980s to official documents and UFO accounts. He created a top-level group of government officials and scientists who determined that, while UFOs are real, they couldn't find evidence of an official cover-up.

"In the 1980s, I was the guy developing all of the pulse-power weapons systems. We couldn't have done it then. In the 60s, they had a laser system, but your range was extremely limited, and we didn't have operational laser weapons in that time frame," said Alexander, who is working to get amnesty for military personnel who wish to talk about their UFO experiences.

Except for the initial newspaper headline declaring the military had captured a flying saucer outside of Roswell, the Air Force closed the books on Roswell, claiming that the true identity of the object was a high-altitude surveillance balloon, code-named "Mogul."

But after eyewitnesses -- including numerous military personnel -- began to tell stories of their participation in an alleged cover-up of the Roswell incident, some researchers insisted that it was, in fact, an alien ship that crashed at Roswell.
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More & video at:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/0 ... ide=283375
 
This one really does sound like unmitigated BS. If the USAF had some fancy pulse weapon in 1947 where is it now or indeed any time in between? They should have won the Cold War and be well on the way to seeing off the Zeta Reticulans with it.
Fighters didn't even have radar in 1947: WW2 night fighters had primitive radar but it was big and needed a lot of aerials and they were twin engined turbo-props not small sleek single engine jets.
So he saw photos of UFO parts with the oft-quoted inscriptions on them - never mind the inscriptions, what did the parts look like for pity's sake?
 
Probably a mistake : seems to be lieutnant colonel Robert Friend, former head of Blue Book.

What a pity that Hector Quintanilla Jr is not alive anymore. He would probably confirm that Roswell was the crash of a flying saucer ! And who knows ? Maybe Donald Menzel would...

And the mainstream media again reports the most unmistakable Roswell BS as 'worthy of interest'.
 
The officer named here is Richard French, where does Robert Friend come into this ?
Quintanilla was head of Blue Book and so could confirm all sorts of incidents but for the fact that he was head of Blue Book and so would confirm nothing.
Menzel was not far short of a swamp gas believer who thought his own UFO sighting was a mirage of Saturn : Venus maybe, but Saturn?
There has been a steady stream of ex air force/Area 51/ Nellis AFB employees, usually sergeants, who have made such claims : personally I suspect they are all having a laugh or being offered enhanced pensions for helping the Pentagon 'poison the well'.
Many years ago FT mag published a letter of mine asking why nobody reported finding propulsion system, instruments or even the toilet. I'm still waiting for an answer.
 
Bigfoot73 said:
Many years ago FT mag published a letter of mine asking why nobody reported finding propulsion system, instruments or even the toilet. I'm still waiting for an answer.
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Would we necessarily recognize those if we found them? After all, who knows, they made not need a loo but use a transporter Star Trek style to beam the the contents of their bladders out. Instruments could be a VR system wired into them Matrix style. And would we recognize as a propulsion system some form of space/time bending device?
 
Pity they weren't smart enough to build a spaceship that didn't crash. Twice.
 
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