The Thread Of Sherlock Holmes

[maximus otter]

There is one Sidney Paget illustration of Holmes wearing a deerstalker, I think from the Baskerville story.

There could, of course, be a reason why Sidney Paget chose a deerstalker:

Sidney Paget

maximus otter

 

[ramonmercado]

The Irregulars: A revisionist retelling of the Holmes and Watson tales. Watson hires the teen Irregulars to solve cases for him and Holmes. This is an alternate London, there is no racism, there are black members of the aristocracy, Watson is black. The miseries of Victorian Britain remain, workhouses, poverty. Two episodes in and we have seen dark magic at work, powers gained through using Ouija Boards, control of corvids, a "Tooth Fairy" who rips teeth from peoples mouths, "pod people". One of the Irregulars is a psychic who can enter peoples minds. This really moves into horror territory and is very much an adult series. Created by Tom Bidwell. Eight episodes, on Netflix. 8/10.

 

[PeteByrdie]

I've just watched the first episode of The Irregulars. There's plenty here to annoy both Holmes purists and history buffs, but hell, I enjoyed it. On its own, it's not so much a 'fresh take' or 'updating' of Holmes, but just a cracking, fun story. Not a classic, but a fun watch.

 

[Frideswide]

a cracking, fun story. Not a classic, but a fun watch.

this, THIS is just what I need!

 

[charliebrown]

My wife and I by accident saw the first irregulars episode, and I am sorry it did not set well with us.

We did not like the fact that Watson was so mean to the girl.

When Watson threw the owed money at the feet of the girl, that was a turn off because the girl fulfilled her end of the deal and I felt Watson was not wanting to pay.

 

[PeteByrdie]

My wife and I by accident saw the first irregulars episode, and I am sorry it did not set well with us.

We did not like the fact that Watson was so mean to the girl.

When Watson threw the owed money at the feet of the girl, that was a turn off because the girl fulfilled her end

of the deal and I felt Watson was not wanting to pay.

Understandable, the series is unkind to Holmes and Watson. However, I kind of like the idea that our only real knowledge of those characters is (mostly) from Watson's own words, and that could be extremely misleading. They may, indeed, have been extremely unpleasant characters in real life (had they existed).

 

[charliebrown]

It seems writers like Charles Dickens who wrote David Copperfield described the poor in London as being really trampled on.

True in reality, Watson and Holmes if they were real people in those times , would have been unkind people.

 

[GNC]

Dickens wasn't unkind. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wasn't unkind. Plenty of people in Victorian times were keen to help the poor. Don't like the sound of this! In fact - was this filmed after the Doyle estate sued Netflix? Might explain the negativity!

 

[Nosmo King]

Dickens wasn't unkind. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wasn't unkind. Plenty of people in Victorian times were keen to help the poor. Don't like the sound of this! In fact - was this filmed after the Doyle estate sued Netflix? Might explain the negativity!

I was always sure that Holmes was quite kind to his 'irregulars' from what i can remember of the tv shows ive seen, i was an avid watcher of Jeremy Bretts Holmes. On a side note i remember visiting the set of Baker st at the Granada studios tour when i was a kid, it was great.

 

[GNC]

I was always sure that Holmes was quite kind to his 'irregulars' from what i can remember of the tv shows ive seen, i was an avid watcher of Jeremy Bretts Holmes. On a side note i remember visiting the set of Baker st at the Granada studios tour when i was a kid, it was great.

When I was little there was a TV programme called The Baker Street Irregulars, I really liked it and Holmes was their hero in it - I don't think we ever saw him, though, just heard his voice.

 

[PeteByrdie]

When I was little there was a TV programme called The Baker Street Irregulars, I really liked it and Holmes was their hero in it - I don't think we ever saw him, though, just heard his voice.

This rings a bell, so I started googling. I haven't found an old programme that I may have seen as a kid yet, but I was surprised to find this from just a few years ago (relatively), with the excellent Jonathan Pryce as Holmes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes_and_the_Baker_Street_Irregulars

 

[maximus otter]

True in reality, Watson and Holmes if they were real people in those times , would have been unkind people.

l’ve actually read all of the original Holmes books and stories. l don’t recall any instances where either of the main protagonists are cruel or unkind. Indeed, display of such behaviour by other characters is, in the stories, used as an indication that the offender is contemptible and richly deserves what’s coming to him.

maximus otter

 

[PeteByrdie]

And then there's this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baker_Street_Boys

I believe this is the TV programme I'm recalling.

 

[Analogue Boy]

I’ve read the Complete Sherlock Holmes too. I don’t recall him being cruel to his Irregulars. If he was, I doubt they would have been so keen to work for him and would have just scarpered when they saw him walking up the street.

 

[PeteByrdie]

Understandable, the series is unkind to Holmes and Watson. However, I kind of like the idea that our only real knowledge of those characters is (mostly) from Watson's own words, and that could be extremely misleading. They may, indeed, have been extremely unpleasant characters in real life (had they existed).

Since this seems to have spun a little off into its own discussion, I just want to clarify the point I was making. I don't think everyone of any position in Victorian London would have been cruel, condescending to lower classes and uncharitable. I don't think Conan Doyle portrayed Holmes and Watson that way, although I think they described the Baker Street Irregulars in quite disparaging terms if memory serves, but only with regards to their appearance and manner. However, in a world in which Conan Doyle's works are being constantly adapted, I think there's room for the idea, in at least one adaptation, that Watson, who supposedly wrote the published accounts, may have portrayed himself and Holmes in a very sanitised and positive way. People are multilayered, and often tailor their accounts of themselves to appeal to those to whom they're speaking, or portray themselves how they'd like to be, or how they'd like to be seen, not necessarily how they act in desperation or confrontation. For what it's worth, the Watson I've seen so far in The Irregulars seems to be in a state of desperation. I'm four episodes in. In the end, this is one of many adaptations, and it contains a few fortean staples (especially the third episode), so might be worth a watch for those not too precious about the source material.

 

[Stormkhan]

What must be remembered is ... cruelty is from our perspective and morality and not from those at the time.
Treating servants as, well, bits of furniture may seem to be cruel or at least heartless but, in the day, that was perfectly acceptable.

As far as Holmes being cruel his investigation on the Adler Case was pretty calculating (as expected); checking with the Prince that he'd tried muggings, burglary etc. before hiring him. Thing is, when it came to his work, he was utterly ruthless, doing what needs doing. Being cruel implies an emotional investment.

 

[PeteByrdie]

I've just finished The Irregulars. I enjoyed it, but it's walked a fine line between entertaining and, well, a bit naff. I don't have much enthusiasm for a second series, although I'd probably watch one. There were some original elements here, but also a lot that was hackneyed. I'm at an age where I could go without ever seeing another rip in the veil between this world and the next, or another tear in the fabric of spacetime for that matter. In fact, any hole between dimensions that needs closing, plugging, sewing up or polyfilling. For what it's worth, the young cast of this show were excellent. The rest did a reasonable job.

 

[BlackPeter]

(This line of discussion transplanted from the Minor Strangeness thread.)

There is a long tradition of 'rich beggars' in folklore and literature.

The subtext is that wicked layabouts are sponging off well-meaning strangers, when it's actually about social exclusion.

Yes this even appears in a Sherlock Holmes story (can't remember title and my copy of 'complete stories' seems to have disappeared!)

 

[maximus otter]

Yes this even appears in a Sherlock Holmes story (can't remember title and my copy of 'complete stories' seems to have disappeared!)

The Amateur Mendicant Society is mentioned in The Five Orange Pips. Is that what you're thinking of?

maximus otter

PS: No: It's The Man with the Twisted Lip.

m.o.

 

[gordonrutter]

The Amateur Mendicant Society is mentioned in The Five Orange Pips. Is that what you're thinking of?

maximus otter

​

There is a story where Holmes disguises himself as a beggar as people talk as if the beggar is not there, he comments to Watson about the amount of money he made. Of course I can’t recall which story.

 

[gordonrutter]

There is a story where Holmes disguises himself as a beggar as people talk as if the beggar is not there, he comments to Watson about the amount of money he made. Of course I can’t recall which story.

The Man With the Twisted Lip features someone disguising himself as a professional beggar, but this is not the one I am thinking of.

 

[Sid]

The Man With the Twisted Lip features someone disguising himself as a professional beggar, but this is not the one I am thinking of.

I believe this is the one you mean. . .
https://blogs.qub.ac.uk/belfastpovhist/2014/03/21/sherlock-holmes-and-the-story-of-the-rich-beggar/

 

[gordonrutter]

I believe this is the one you mean. . .
https://blogs.qub.ac.uk/belfastpovhist/2014/03/21/sherlock-holmes-and-the-story-of-the-rich-beggar/

No that is The Man With the Twisted Lip. I’m sure there is another one where Holmes himself is disguised as a beggar to listen to unguarded talk.

 

[EnolaGaia]

There is a story where Holmes disguises himself as a beggar as people talk as if the beggar is not there, he comments to Watson about the amount of money he made. Of course I can’t recall which story.

If it was Holmes as a beggar, you're probably thinking of a movie or TV dramatization rather than the canonical Conan Doyle stories.

Here's a listing of Holmes' disguises from the original canon:

https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php/Sherlock_Holmes#Disguises

... and here's a key to the story title codes used within the listing:

http://www.bestofsherlock.com/ref/rfab.htm

 

[Nosmo King]

If it was Holmes as a beggar, you're probably thinking of a movie or TV dramatization rather than the canonical Conan Doyle stories.

Here's a listing of Holmes' disguises from the original canon:

https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php/Sherlock_Holmes#Disguises

... and here's a key to the story title codes used within the listing:

http://www.bestofsherlock.com/ref/rfab.htm

I know he disguised himself as a beggar in 'The Hound of the Baskervilles'

 

[EnolaGaia]

I know he disguised himself as a beggar in 'The Hound of the Baskervilles'

There's no mention of Holmes using a beggar disguise in the original / canonical text.

 

[Nosmo King]

There's no mention of Holmes using a beggar disguise in the original / canonical text.

I just remember the Jeremy Brett series

 

[Lb8535]

There's no mention of Holmes using a beggar disguise in the original / canonical text.

Yes I think there is. Willing to re-read Hound if we think it's there.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I seem to recall Holmes dressing in a beggar disguise in one of the Robert Downey films.

 

[Nosmo King]

Yes I think there is. Willing to re-read Hound if we think it's there.

In the Jeremy Brett TV series, there is a section were Holmes disappears for a time then reappears to Watson, on the moor dressed as a beggar.