The Thread Of Sherlock Holmes

[Mythopoeika]

It is a radio play with a live reading on stage.

Well, that makes things different.

 

[Stormkhan]

True.

 

[ramonmercado]

Well, that makes things different.

There are certain standards which should be maintained though:

When the BBC first started delivering nightly radio broadcasts to the British public, the radio announcers they hired had to work under a number of stringent conditions. The most curious of which was that they had to wear a dinner jacket to read the news.

http://www.factfiend.com/bbc-used-make-radio-announcers-wear-dinner-jackets/

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Saw a production of Sherlock Holmes: The Valley of Fear at Basingstoke's Haymarket theatre last night.

Because we weren't familiar with that final SH tale, the twist in the denouement came as a brilliant surprise (and judging from a few gasps in the audience, to many others too).
The Blackeyed Theatre group are taking the production around the country until the end of May and I can heartily recommend it.

https://www.anvilarts.org.uk/whats-on/event/sherlock-holmes-the-valley-of-fear

https://blackeyedtheatre.co.uk/shows-2/shows/sherlock-holmes-the-valley-of-fear/

 

[Kondoru]

Would you believe I have never got into SH?

My Conan Doyle guy is Professor Challenger.

 

[ramonmercado]

Would you believe I have never got into SH?

My Conan Doyle guy is Professor Challenger.

Always loved Prof Challenger. it's time for another TV or Film version.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Always loved Prof Challenger. it's time for another TV or Film version.

There was a TV version, which was fun.
But I think they pulled the plug on it eventually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_World_(TV_series)

 

[ramonmercado]

There was a TV version, which was fun.
But I think they pulled the plug on it eventually.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_World_(TV_series)

Yeah, it went way beyond the original concept.

Bob Hoskins was pretty good as Prof Challenger in the BBC 2001 version. Surprisingly this was the first British film adaptation of the books.

Like Sherlock Holmes, Professor Challenger was based on a real person—in this case, an explorer named Percy Fawcett, who was Conan Doyle's friend, and a professor of physiology named William Rutherford, who had lectured at the University of Edinburgh while Conan Doyle studied medicine there.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Challenger

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Yeah, it went way beyond the original concept.

Bob Hoskins was pretty good as Prof Challenger in the BBC 2001 version. Surprisingly this was the first British film adaptation of the books.

Like Sherlock Holmes, Professor Challenger was based on a real person—in this case, an explorer named Percy Fawcett, who was Conan Doyle's friend, and a professor of physiology named William Rutherford, who had lectured at the University of Edinburgh while Conan Doyle studied medicine there.[1][2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Challenger

As a larger-than life, bearded great bull of a man, with a deep booming voice, I'm surprised Brian Blessed was never offered the role.

 

[Mythopoeika]

As a larger-than life, bearded great bull of a man, with a deep booming voice, I'm surprised Brian Blessed was never offered the role.

Plus, he has done a bit of explorer stuff in the past. Even claims to have punched a polar bear on the nose.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

Has anyone read Land of Mists (1926) by Conan Doyle? These were the last of the Professor Challenger stories. They were written when Conan Doyle had become smitten with the Spritualist bug in a big way.
In this, Challenger investgates holders of Seances and, being a pugnacious materialist and general sceptic, he approaches the whole matter with derision - but, of course, he gets won over and becomes completely convinced in the afterlife and outr ability to consort with spirits from it.

It becomes a work of propaganda on behalf of Spiritualism. It's all there : ectoplasm, table tapping and speaking in tongues. Conan Doyle had always been a tale teller and had avoided preaching in his previous works - but he overturned all that here.

It's embarrasing - but, being written by Conan Doyle - still readable.

 

[Stormkhan]

One of my favourite novels by Conan Doyle is The Mystery of Cloomber which, starts out appearing to be a supernatural thriller but gets really quite dark.

 

[Tunn11]

Has anyone read Land of Mists (1926) by Conan Doyle? These were the last of the Professor Challenger stories. They were written when Conan Doyle had become smitten with the Spritualist bug in a big way.
In this, Challenger investgates holders of Seances and, being a pugnacious materialist and general sceptic, he approaches the whole matter with derision - but, of course, he gets won over and becomes completely convinced in the afterlife and outr ability to consort with spirits from it.

It becomes a work of propaganda on behalf of Spiritualism. It's all there : ectoplasm, table tapping and speaking in tongues. Conan Doyle had always been a tale teller and had avoided preaching in his previous works - but he overturned all that here.

It's embarrasing - but, being written by Conan Doyle - still readable.

Yes, agree on all counts! I bought a "Challenger stories" some years back; Lost World, The Poison Belt, The Land of Mist, and two short stories; The Disintegration Machine and When the World Screamed.

One of my favourite novels by Conan Doyle is The Mystery of Cloomber which, starts out appearing to be a supernatural thriller but gets really quite dark.

Enjoyed that as well and also The Maracot Deep which is about a deep sea expedition which discovers a sunken Atlantis and also gets into spiritual good vs evil themes.

Christopher Sandford's "Houdini and Conan Doyle" is worth reading as well.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/houdini-and-conan-doyle/christopher-sandford//9780715641460

I hadn't realised quite how fanatical Doyle became in later life

 

[gordonrutter]

Yes, agree on all counts! I bought a "Challenger stories" some years back; Lost World, The Poison Belt, The Land of Mist, and two short stories; The Disintegration Machine and When the World Screamed.

Enjoyed that as well and also The Maracot Deep which is about a deep sea expedition which discovers a sunken Atlantis and also gets into spiritual good vs evil themes.

Christopher Sandford's "Houdini and Conan Doyle" is worth reading as well.
https://www.waterstones.com/book/houdini-and-conan-doyle/christopher-sandford//9780715641460

I hadn't realised quite how fanatical Doyle became in later life

On a word count basis he wrote more on Spiritualism than on Holmes.

 

[Tunn11]

On a word count basis he wrote more on Spiritualism than on Holmes.

I gather that he didn't really like Holmes after the first few stories and would happily have left him dead at the Reichenbach falls, but was persuaded to bring him back.
He always thought his historical novels were his "proper" work. The White Company and Brigadier Gerard, at least before he got enthused by Spritualism.
He wrote a number of historical short stories and also boxing stories.

He seems to have been one of those authors remembered for a character that they created but became less and less than enthusiastic about.
Richmal Crompton regarded her other novels as far more important than the William Brown stories (written, at least initially for adults) but will be forever remembered for "Just William". I'd like to read her Ghost stories "Mists" but I've never found a copy - her other novels are harder to find than William as well.

 

[Min Bannister]

He always thought his historical novels were his "proper" work. The White Company and Brigadier Gerard,

LOVE those. I have raved about them a few times on here before. Just sublime. Gerard is such a brilliant character. He must have had so much fun writing those.

I have read all the Challenger books. They are good but Challenger is a horrible person.

 

[PeteByrdie]

I've only read The Lost World, twice, once when very young and once a few years back. If I can find all the Challenger stories on Kindle I'll buy them, and even reread The Lost World again. I always imagined Brian Blessed as the character, so much so I was surprised to discover he'd never been in the role. Apparently, he lost out to Bob Hoskins in the BBC adaptation a few years back, which I think I caught the end of one evening and decided not to bother tracking down. Of course, Blessed is often too busy being Professor Challenger to play Professor Challenger.

 

[Stormkhan]

I decided to re-watch some of my Hound of the Baskervilles versions - I've a couple, including the Peter Cook/Dudley Moore version .
The oddest one (so far) is the Matt Frewer rendition of Holmes.
It's, I think unintentionally, hilarious! Everyone else is doiong their best to be ultra-serious yet Frewer's Holmes seems to be played for comedy! His rendition of an English accent borders on parody, his 'nervous energy' breaks out into comedy slapstick ... and yet he does manage to suddenly show a chilling serious expression - for about 30 seconds.

 

[Zeke Newbold]

I decided to re-watch some of my Hound of the Baskervilles versions - I've a couple, including the Peter Cook/Dudley Moore version .
The oddest one (so far) is the Matt Frewer rendition of Holmes.
It's, I think unintentionally, hilarious! Everyone else is doiong their best to be ultra-serious yet Frewer's Holmes seems to be played for comedy! His rendition of an English accent borders on parody, his 'nervous energy' breaks out into comedy slapstick ... and yet he does manage to suddenly show a chilling serious expression - for about 30 seconds.

Yes there is a lot of fun to be had in comparing and contrasting the different renditions of Baskerville's. The worst I have seen is an (I think) early eighties American made for TV version which has William Shatner in it as Baskerville - fittingly enough (I can't even recall who Sherlocjk was). It featured obviously painted backdrops and lots of hammy acting.But Baskerville's a very difficult tale to completely cock up as it is gifted with an excellent location as well as a Gothic premise rendered credible - pure escapism without having to switch your brain off.

For me the definitive version must be the television serial version from, I think, 1968 starring Peter Cushing. This is not to be confused with the Hammer Horror attempt from a decade earlier (also with Cushing) which is way too glitzily Blood and Thunder for it's own good. Another contender is the Soviet version from the Eighties - with Vasily Ivanov (acknowledged as one of the best by Sherlockians). This treated Watson with a bit of due dignity for once, and managed to mine some unexpected humour from the story, yet failed to bring out the horror story element enough.

Also I rather enjoyed the Matt Frewer variation! I just didn't find it funny - except when it was meant to be. I agree that his character acting seemed a little out of sync with the other players, but I took this as a conscious indication that Holmes is somewhat detached from the rest of humanity (as indeed he comes across in ConanDoyle's stories too).

I liked the way Frewer's Holmes was rather iconoclastic in showing him as quite maladroit when not being a detective - for example, playing the violin appallingly.

In fact Fewer's Holmes is a bit like Colin Baker's Sixth Doctor - a bit fallible and a little irritating, but a shot in the arm for the overplayed character.

But I'm perverse in that way: I'm a Timothy Dalton man when it comes to Bond, and I can't stand David Suchet's portrayal of Hercule Poirot..

I've only read The Lost World, twice, once when very young and once a few years back. If I can find all the Challenger stories on Kindle I'll buy them, and even reread The Lost World again. I always imagined Brian Blessed as the character, so much so I was surprised to discover he'd never been in the role. Apparently, he lost out to Bob Hoskins in the BBC adaptation a few years back, which I think I caught the end of one evening and decided not to bother tracking down. Of course, Blessed is often too busy being Professor Challenger to play Professor Challenger.

I don't think I've ever read Doyle's Lost World, but I do well recall my joy on getting a cheap paperback version of Edgar Rice Burroughs's The Land That Time Forgot and all but ravishing it on my bed as a twelve year old.

Colin Baker is another actor who could make a good go of Professor Challenger too. (His Sixth Doctor was more or less that after all).

 

[Stormkhan]

For me the definitive version must be the television serial version from, I think, 1968 starring Peter Cushing.

The TV series with Cushing is available on You Tube, including Baskervilles. It was when I re-watched the Ian Richardson version (1983) I spotted Denholm Elliot ... who was also in the Cook/Moore comedy one.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

We all know how the long-suffering Watson is terminally obsequious and stands in awe of Holmes.
Well wouldn't it be great if, in one production, after patiently listening to Holmes making one of his famously left field and convoluted deductions, Watson quipped "No shit, Sherlock"?

 

[Xanatic*]

No, that would be crude and childish.

 

[Tunn11]

There are many parodies but one of my favourites was The Strange Case of the End of Civilisation As We Know It.

I haven't watched it for years but just found the above link so will make time to see if it is as I remembered. (Watson and the dagger and Holmes smoking on the bus were two things that stuck in my memory) Quite a cast list though.

Edited to provide correct link; and again for spelling

 

[Squail]

Like Sherlock Holmes, Professor Challenger was based on a real person—in this case, an explorer named Percy Fawcett, who was Conan Doyle's friend...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Challenger

That's interesting -- Percy Fawcett has featured in various sub-forums / threads / posts on this site, over the years: as well as an explorer, he was something of a mystic -- fascinated by perceived-by-him lost civilisations of the distant past, in South America (the last that was heard of him, was a quest after same, from which he never returned). (I read in late childhood, Fawcett's book, Exploration Fawcett, on his South American doings: found it utterly fascinating.) I'd been aware that Doyle drew on findings by Fawcett, for his first Challenger novel, The Lost World; but didn't know that they were actually personally acquainted.

Has anyone read Land of Mists (1926) by Conan Doyle? These were the last of the Professor Challenger stories. They were written when Conan Doyle had become smitten with the Spritualist bug in a big way.
In this, Challenger investgates holders of Seances and, being a pugnacious materialist and general sceptic, he approaches the whole matter with derision - but, of course, he gets won over and becomes completely convinced in the afterlife and outr ability to consort with spirits from it.

It becomes a work of propaganda on behalf of Spiritualism. It's all there : ectoplasm, table tapping and speaking in tongues. Conan Doyle had always been a tale teller and had avoided preaching in his previous works - but he overturned all that here.

It's embarrasing - but, being written by Conan Doyle - still readable.

Yes, agree on all counts! I bought a "Challenger stories" some years back; Lost World, The Poison Belt, The Land of Mist, and two short stories; The Disintegration Machine and When the World Screamed.

I read all the Challenger books, many decades ago -- found them un-put-down-able. Recall having no problem with Land of Mists -- accepted that Doyle was extremely pro-spiritualism (plenty to suggest the reality of same, over and above the enormous amount of fakery), whereby that was the way which the book would most probably go.

I have read all the Challenger books. They are good but Challenger is a horrible person.

Indeed -- Challenger is that often-met-with type: genius in his field, but obnoxious as regards relations with his fellow-humans. Re, as above, Challenger being modelled by Doyle on Percy Fawcett, via first-hand acquaintance -- from what I've read by and about Fawcett, feeling got that while doubt can be entertained as to whether Fawcett was altogether sane, or truthful: he doesn't seem in the main to have been vile in dealings with other people. Soldiering was his original profession; and he served throughout World War I, in which, it appears, he consistently and tirelessly fought like a fiend -- but that's a different issue.

 

[ramonmercado]

That's interesting -- Percy Fawcett has featured in various sub-forums / threads / posts on this site, over the years: as well as an explorer, he was something of a mystic -- fascinated by perceived-by-him lost civilisations of the distant past, in South America (the last that was heard of him, was a quest after same, from which he never returned). (I read in late childhood, Fawcett's book, Exploration Fawcett, on his South American doings: found it utterly fascinating.) I'd been aware that Doyle drew on findings by Fawcett, for his first Challenger novel, The Lost World; but didn't know that they were actually personally acquainted.




I read all the Challenger books, many decades ago -- found them un-put-down-able. Recall having no problem with Land of Mists -- accepted that Doyle was extremely pro-spiritualism (plenty to suggest the reality of same, over and above the enormous amount of fakery), whereby that was the way which the book would most probably go.



Indeed -- Challenger is that often-met-with type: genius in his field, but obnoxious as regards relations with his fellow-humans. Re, as above, Challenger being modelled by Doyle on Percy Fawcett, via first-hand acquaintance -- from what I've read by and about Fawcett, feeling got that while doubt can be entertained as to whether Fawcett was altogether sane, or truthful: he doesn't seem in the main to have been vile in dealings with other people. Soldiering was his original profession; and he served throughout World War I, in which, it appears, he consistently and tirelessly fought like a fiend -- but that's a different issue.

Have you seen The Lost City of Z? My review:

The Lost City of Z: So they do make films like that anymore. Plenty of derring-do and stiff upper lips but Colonel Percival Fawcett was no imperialist or racist and admired the Amazon natives and publicised how they were exploited. The film covers his life from 1905 in Ireland to his disappearance in the Amazon Jungle in 1925.

No giant snakes but Fortean touches include Fawcett and his sidekicks encountering an Opera production on a rubber plantation and a fortune teller predicting Fawcett's future at the Somme Front in 1916. His obsession was The Lost City of Z and it cost him and his eldest son their lives in 1925. The film suggests a possible, even likely explanation for their disappearance.

Fawcett's defence of the theory of Ancient Civilisations in the Amazon led to mockery at the Royal Geographical Society but Fawcett had the last laugh when ruins and geoglyphs were found in the Amazon Rainforest over the last ten years. Some archaeological finds were in the area suggested by Fawcett as the location for the City of Z. 8/10.

 

[Squail]

I gather that he didn't really like Holmes after the first few stories and would happily have left him dead at the Reichenbach falls, but was persuaded to bring him back.
He always thought his historical novels were his "proper" work. The White Company and Brigadier Gerard, at least before he got enthused by Spritualism.
He wrote a number of historical short stories and also boxing stories.

I have for sure, thus had the picture that historical fiction was what Doyle felt that he had been put on Earth to do. I've read, I think, the majority of the historical novels. Many readers are hugely enthusiastic for, certainly, the medieval ones -- The White Company, and Sir Nigel. I'm not so much of a fan of those: find them a bit simplistic and kids'-comic-ish. I loved the Brigadier Gerard stories, though. In my view, a different kettle of fish from the pure historicals: those struck me, as meant as solemnly deadly-serious -- and the worse for that. The "Gerard" material is different, in being nicely tongue-in-cheek: Gerard is a most excellent, honourable, chivalrous and virtuous guy, a highly doughty and resourceful fighter; but, to put it mildly, not the sharpest knife in the drawer. This factor surfaces often: including mention being made, of its being commented on by Gerard's adored master Napoleon (though the Emperor also pays due tribute to the Brigadier's positive qualities).

He seems to have been one of those authors remembered for a character that they created but became less and less than enthusiastic about.
Richmal Crompton regarded her other novels as far more important than the William Brown stories (written, at least initially for adults) but will be forever remembered for "Just William". I'd like to read her Ghost stories "Mists" but I've never found a copy - her other novels are harder to find than William as well.

Have read only Crompton's "William" stories -- IMO great fun to a large extent, but one occasionally feels, "enough already !". Have heard elsewhere, of people who encountered her "adult" novels; and found them dismal in all senses, and greatly preferred "William". It would be interesting to investigate her novels -- and the ghost stories (never heard of by me before this), to make one's own judgement.

It does indeed seem to be a not uncommon thing: author's material which the reading public most enjoys and acclaims, being bored-ly churned out by author who regards it as pot-boiling rubbish; and considers their worthwhile stuff to be, material for which the readership has little or no use. Have been trying to recall other instances of this, which I'm sure I've heard of; but memory has not obliged. There is -- a rather different situation -- Dorothy L. Sayers and Lord Peter Wimsey: have read a suggestion that DLS was getting tired of Wimsey, but was too tender-hearted to set up a Reichenbach Falls situation for him -- decided that instead, she'd marry him off. This took, however, a good half-dozen novels to achieve: involving bloody whiny Harriet, whom I personally detest -- in my view, the series "bombed" when she showed up (am aware that for many, said books are treasured as being among the greatest love stories ever written).

LOVE those. I have raved about them a few times on here before. Just sublime. Gerard is such a brilliant character. He must have had so much fun writing those.

As mentioned by me above -- I love the Gerard stories. I do feel, though, that Doyle's sense of humour was maybe a little "out of whack": perhaps the humorous side of "Gerard", pee'd him off and had him feeling (as opposed to your seeing it being fun for him) that in those stories, he was delivering pot-boiling worthless stuff; so that he might be able to produce the highly-solemn historical material which he was really "about". All total speculation, of course -- we'll never know.

 

[Tunn11]

Have read only Crompton's "William" stories -- IMO great fun to a large extent, but one occasionally feels, "enough already !". Have heard elsewhere, of people who encountered her "adult" novels; and found them dismal in all senses, and greatly preferred "William". It would be interesting to investigate her novels -- and the ghost stories (never heard of by me before this), to make one's own judgement.

The William stories went on far too long, he was a child of the '20s to the early '50s and the later stories generally don't work (there are exceptions, of course) After all they spanned from 1922 to 1970 by which time William would have been in his sixties! There were also the Jimmy stories about a younger child which also don't work IMO.

The only other novels of hers I've read were "of their time".

William has attracted some controversy https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/may/04/rorycarroll although this article doesn't mention the generally moral ending to the stories. William and the Nasties being Crompton's swipe at the Nazis (The Outlaws decide to take what they want from a Jewish sweet shop owner as it's what happens in Germany, despite many misgivings they go ahead but end up saving the owner from a burglar. The owner befriends them and they renounce any fascist ideas) Also Jumble's ratting abilities don't fit contempory sensibilities. The two stories were omitted from later editions of William the Detective.

Interestingly I once asked a successful young Black British author what books inspired him as a young Black guy growing up in England. I thought he would bemoan the lack of Black characters to identify with as there can't have been many; but he answered; "William Brown, what young boy wouldn't identify with a naughty schoolboy?"

But, back to Holmes and Doyle!

 

[Min Bannister]

I do feel, though, that Doyle's sense of humour was maybe a little "out of whack": perhaps the humorous side of "Gerard", pee'd him off and had him feeling (as opposed to your seeing it being fun for him) that in those stories, he was delivering pot-boiling worthless stuff; so that he might be able to produce the highly-solemn historical material which he was really "about"

Ah, well each to their own but the subtle humour in the historical novels is what makes them great IMHO. The description of Sir Nigel's head in The White Company is just beautiful.

"It is of import", said he, "for I love to keep my hair well ordered, seeing that the weight of my helmet for thirty years hath in some degree frayed it upon the top". He pulled off his velvet cap of maintenance as he spoke, and displayed a pate which was as bald as an egg and shone bravely in the firelight. "You see" said he, whisking round and showing one little strip where a line of scattered hairs, like the last survivors in some fatal field, still barely held their own against the fate which had fallen upon their comrades; "these locks need some little oiling and curling, for I doubt not that if you look slantwise at my head, when the light is good, you will yourself perceive that their are places where the hair is sparse".

Sigh.

I feel sure he loved writing about Gerard as he was a great fan of Napoleonic history and it must have been great fun keeping it historically accurate while also being funny. But like you said, we will never know.

 

[Squail]

Have you seen The Lost City of Z? My review:

The Lost City of Z: So they do make films like that anymore. Plenty of derring-do and stiff upper lips but Colonel Percival Fawcett was no imperialist or racist and admired the Amazon natives and publicised how they were exploited. The film covers his life from 1905 in Ireland to his disappearance in the Amazon Jungle in 1925.

No giant snakes but Fortean touches include Fawcett and his sidekicks encountering an Opera production on a rubber plantation and a fortune teller predicting Fawcett's future at the Somme Front in 1916. His obsession was The Lost City of Z and it cost him and his eldest son their lives in 1925. The film suggests a possible, even likely explanation for their disappearance.

Fawcett's defence of the theory of Ancient Civilisations in the Amazon led to mockery at the Royal Geographical Society but Fawcett had the last laugh when ruins and geoglyphs were found in the Amazon Rainforest over the last ten years. Some archaeological finds were in the area suggested by Fawcett as the location for the City of Z. 8/10.

For more than one reason, essentially I "don't do films". However -- this one sounds potentially interesting: could investigate ways-and-means.

The picture I have from Fawcett's writings is that he was essentially a humane and benign guy -- saw the raw deal that the Amerindians were getting, and sympathised with them (and had on the whole, a liking for the "white" South Americans, while often deploring their behaviour). I recall a section of his book, involving the reputedly horrifically-cannibal Maricoxi tribe; but this was in 1914, and if I remember rightly -- before it was possible to decide whether or not to try to visit this crowd: word came, of war having broken out in Europe, whereby PF saw it as imperative to head immediately for civilisation and depart homeward. This particular part of the book particularly struck me as arousing suspicion that here, Fawcett was doing some "drawing of the long-bow".

Not to suggest ideas concerned, of South American bygone cultures being, necessarily, nonsense; just, picture rather got of Fawcett having been something of an "odd duck".

 

[Squail]

The William stories went on far too long, he was a child of the '20s to the early '50s and the later stories generally don't work (there are exceptions, of course) After all they spanned from 1922 to 1970 by which time William would have been in his sixties! There were also the Jimmy stories about a younger child which also don't work IMO.

I've always found the timelessness of "William", delightfully mad. There aren't many families who manage to do as the Browns, and remain at the same age from 1922 to 1970 ! "Jimmy" never came my way.

William has attracted some controversy https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/may/04/rorycarroll although this article doesn't mention the generally moral ending to the stories. William and the Nasties being Crompton's swipe at the Nazis (The Outlaws decide to take what they want from a Jewish sweet shop owner as it's what happens in Germany, despite many misgivings they go ahead but end up saving the owner from a burglar. The owner befriends them and they renounce any fascist ideas) Also Jumble's ratting abilities don't fit contempory sensibilities. The two stories were omitted from later editions of William the Detective.

I came across the "Nasties" story long ago, in an un-expurgated edition -- for sure, "as per", it would be very ineffective as Nazi propaganda. I've posted before, elsewhere on these Forums, about a 1930s strain in the William stories -- various of them, as well as the "Nasties" one, revolving around William and his Outlaws feeling right-wing dictatorships of that era to be cool, and doing stuff to emulate them (William and his Blue-Shirts and the rival kid-gang-leader, the obnoxious Hubert Lane's, Green-Shirts, or was it the other way around?) Those antics always struck me as not about politics; more, the author's recurring theme of the kids' latching onto and aping, all manner of things from the adult world which they heard about; but amusingly getting the wrong end of the stick and missing the intended message. (I loved the one about the Outlaws hearing about St. Francis of Assisi and his followers, and attempting to do likewise).

At all events: even if Crompton had genuinely seen good in the regimes of Hitler, Mussolini et al, and written accordingly: she would have been very far from alone among essentially decent folk of a conservative bent, in 1930s Britain -- such set-ups seen as, if nothing else, a counter to the menacing and worse equivalent which obtained in Russia. King Edward VIII tends to get lambasted for his sympathies with Nazi Germany: while he was in a number of ways, something of an "unsatisfactory person" -- in that one, he was no different from many of the British upper-crust at the time: when push came to shove, minds were changed on that issue.

I must live under a rock -- didn't realise that using dogs to kill rats, was no longer acceptable (it's not as though it weren't still seen as necessary to kill the critters !).

Interestingly I once asked a successful young Black British author what books inspired him as a young Black guy growing up in England. I thought he would bemoan the lack of Black characters to identify with as there can't have been many; but he answered; "William Brown, what young boy wouldn't identify with a naughty schoolboy?"

Good old William -- he "makes the whole world kin".

Ah, well each to their own but the subtle humour in the historical novels is what makes them great IMHO. The description of Sir Nigel's head in The White Company is just beautiful.


Sigh.

I feel sure he loved writing about Gerard as he was a great fan of Napoleonic history and it must have been great fun keeping it historically accurate while also being funny. But like you said, we will never know.

Sir N.'s head -- for you, delightful; for me, I'm afraid, weak and laboured. As you say, "each to their own" -- and I feel that I'm in a minority in disliking most of Doyle's historical output.

The Napoleonic Wars have been, for certain, great inspiration for literary tale-tellers. I have a great weakness for Dennis Wheatley's Roger Brook novels -- Roger being a sort of Napoleonic James Bond figure (including a high degree of "scoring" with the opposite sex); his career spans that whole generation's-worth of history, including his featuring first-hand (in a way which realistically, is preposterous) on absolutely every theatre of conflict in those wars, which took place on land (he hates the sea and ships, and has as little as possible to do with them). Hokum; but for me, very enjoyable such !