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The Vegetarian & Vegan Thread

Floyd said:
Heaven knows how much animal product she's unknowingly eaten there (and other places) over the years.
I did try to tell her - but people never listen!
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Yup, it's hard to be sure you haven't been slyly fed animal.

Floyd said:
It's called Reubens;

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Reubens/@52.9693605,-2.6847085,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNu9NMKfiKhjMEpOwKe10c4BRbq698NSRa9W6VA!2e10!3e12!6shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipNu9NMKfiKhjMEpOwKe10c4BRbq698NSRa9W6VA=w107-h86-k-no!7i2258!8i1806!4m19!1m8!3m7!1s0x25a3b1142c791a9:0xc4f8a0433288257a!2sUnited+Kingdom!3b1!8m2!3d55.378051!4d-3.435973!16zL20vMDdzc2M!3m9!1s0x487a93710d41731d:0x3abfc89d4d1c40b5!5m2!4m1!1i2!8m2!3d52.9693238!4d-2.6846689!10e5!16s/g/11g0khcl1s?entry=ttu
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Got it. :bthumbup:

Edit - pfft, veggie/vegan my arse.
 

Lab-grown meat is proving to be a grotesque misadventure​


Your tasty, wholesome steak is safe for now: the lab-grown meat revolution looks like it’s over.

“It’s going to go down as one of the biggest failures in food history. Business schools will be presenting lessons on lab-grown meat,” says Julian Mellentin, a food consultant whose company has advised alternative protein companies – and told them not to do it.

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But in what may be the most shameless pivot that a startup sector has ever made, it now wants you and me, the taxpayers, to bail them out of their folly. And guess what: the Government is sympathetic.

Since the first lab-grown burger was demonstrated more than a decade ago, billions of pounds have been thrown at the technology. It involves extracting cells derived from animal fetuses and cultivating the cells in sterile bioreactors, a process that takes a lot of energy and expense. The resulting slurry is then stretched and shaped to resemble animal tissue, although the backers – who include Bill Gates and Richard Branson – understandably prefer the euphemism “cultivated meat”.

We were told that this innovation would transform how we eat and farm – but this month, leading industry figures admitted the game was all but up. Which is where you come in.

The chief executive of Impossible Foods, which only creates plant-based ersatz meat products, acknowledged that the political mood has changed for everyone. Food security and competitiveness are now back on the agenda, he said. The alternative proteins bubble has burst.

In reality, it never stood a chance. The economics were always stacked against meat bioreactors. The process requires pharmaceutical industry-level lab conditions, very expensive nutrients – which amount to about two thirds of the cost – specialised labour and long timescales. Optimistically, producers would be doing well to hit $63 (£48) per kilo wholesale as a break-even price, one study found. That made the output not remotely competitive with premium meat products.

SCiFi Foods, backed by the band Coldplay and Andreessen Horowitz, closed down this year. Israel’s Aleph Farms has laid off 30pc of its staff. Upside Foods cancelled its plans for its first production bioreactor.

But the real reason is not so much economics as it is lack of demand, expressed in the form of public disgust.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/smallbusiness/ar-AA1semlV

maximus otter
 
I'm surprised, I don't understand the disgust for lab-grown meat, at all.
Meat grown in a sterile lab with no suffering = :puke2:
Meat from a sentient being dying in convulsions in pools of its own urine and faeces = :bthumbup:

:dunno:
 
I am not a vegan or a vegetarian, but the only 'meat' I have eaten for twenty-five years has been fish or seafood.

I am not against the idea of trying lab-grown artificial meat, although I have no particular need or craving for a meat substitute, yet I've never bought any simply because no shop or restaurant I've ever walked into has offered it.

I presume that I am firmly within the target demographic for these products, but despite constant mention in the media, they've never crossed my path.

Actual marketing seems lamentable.

See also: insects. I don't want to try them, but I have seen scores of articles covering every possible angle on how it will help the whole world when we give into the inevitable and enjoy their fine taste, but without ever having gone out of my way to find them, they've never been presented to me for sale.
 
Fluttermoth said:
I'm surprised, I don't understand the disgust for lab-grown meat, at all.
Meat grown in a sterile lab with no suffering = :puke2:
Meat from a sentient being dying in convulsions in pools of its own urine and faeces = :bthumbup:

:dunno:
Click to expand...
We don't need lab grown though, there are many plant-based options now.
 
Yithian said:
I am not a vegan or a vegetarian, but the only 'meat' I have eaten for twenty-five years has been fish or seafood.

I am not against the idea of trying lab-grown artificial meat, although I have no particular need or craving for a meat substitute, yet I've never bought any simply because no shop or restaurant I've ever walked into has offered it.

I presume that I am firmly within the target demographic for these products, but despite constant mention in the media, they've never crossed my path.

Actual marketing seems lamentable.

See also: insects. I don't want to try them, but I have seen scores of articles covering every possible angle on how it will help the whole world when we give into the inevitable and enjoy their fine taste, but without ever having gone out of my way to find them, they've never been presented to me for sale.
Click to expand...
When you consider that supermarkets even have to make a point of saying 'wonky carrots' (or whatever) just to let the customers know that it's ok to eat un-perfectly shaped veg, I doubt very much that insects will ever catch on.

Not here anyway.
 
My Landlords a sheep farmer.

They live on land unsuitable for arable farming.

They reproduce, and grow themselves.

Sheep also produce wool!

And leather!

Can we better that? I think not. Its sheer arrogance that we think we can better nature. (And sheep, and indeed other animals, are a long way away from sentiency)

Lab grown meat is only really suited to long term space travel.


(Is it just me but is `Impossible Foods` just a totally poor name for a company?)
 
Fluttermoth said:
I'm surprised, I don't understand the disgust for lab-grown meat, at all.
Meat grown in a sterile lab with no suffering = :puke2:
Meat from a sentient being dying in convulsions in pools of its own urine and faeces = :bthumbup:

:dunno:
Click to expand...
Very emotive language and I genuinely respect anyone who is vegetarian but if an animal is properly stunned then it is unconscious and those are just muscle spasms, rather like the rabbit that was chopped in half by the combine harvester that produces vegan foods or the squirrel squashed by the lorry leaving the Impossible Meats factory.

Also trying to set ourselves apart from nature and all its inherent cruelty isn't going so well...
 
You've all made fair points; I'm not talking about anything other than the disgust for lab grown meat, I genuinely find it very strange.
 
Fluttermoth said:
You've all made fair points; I'm not talking about anything other than the disgust for lab grown meat, I genuinely find it very strange.
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I'd consider it only if it did not seem so much like eating a lab-grown cancer (like the Henrietta Lacks culture, which has persisted beyond her death). Also, there is the issue of nutrient/mineral/fibre content not being the same as with 'natural' meat. It could actually be unhealthy to eat.
 

Harvard doctor says animal products are essential for mental health - in blow to veganism: 'The brain needs meat'​

Dr. Georgia Ede is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist specializing in nutritional and metabolic psychiatry. She has spent 25 years researching the role of diet, particularly ketogenic and carnivore diets, in mental health and brain function, making her an expert on the subject.

According to her research and findings, “the brain needs meat.”

LI-70-Grilling-Steak.png


…[D]espite the health halo that vegan diets have been given over the last few years, she claims that giving up meat could be detrimental for mental health.

‘The brain needs meat,’ she [said].

‘We’re used to hearing that meat is dangerous for our total health, including our brain health, and plants are really the best way to nourish and protect our brains.’

‘But the truth of the matter is that it’s actually — that’s upside down and backward.’

Apparently, meat is the only good that contains “every nutrient we need.”

While animal products like eggs, meat, cheese, and Greek yogurt are high in protein, it can also be found in vegan options like lentils and broccoli.

‘But many of the other essential nutrients are much more difficult if not in some cases impossible to obtain from plants,’ Dr Ede said.

She noted that meat is ‘the only food that contains every nutrient we need in its proper form and is also the safest food for our blood sugar and insulin levels.’

A systematic review of 18 studies in 2021 compared meat-eaters with non-meat-eaters. The study involved 160,257 participants aged 11 to 96 (53% of whom were female), including 149,559 meat-eaters and 8,584 meat-avoiders.

Of these, 11 studies showed that meatless diets were associated with worsened mental health. One of these studies found that vegetarians had a 35.2% chance of developing major depression compared to 19.1% in meat-eaters.

Additionally, the likelihood of developing an anxiety disorder in vegetarians was 31.5% compared to 18.4% in meat-eaters.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13197267/americans-mental-health-eat-meat-veganism.html

- and:

https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/living-without-meat-and-staying-healthy-harvard-1710512787.html

maximus otter
 
From the 'Full English Breakfast' thread;

@hunck
I tried some Heck sausages recently & didn’t like them all that much - a sort of dense rubbery texture. Of course I still ate them. I wouldn’t rush to buy them again though.

@Mythopoeika
Same experience here. While I was eating them, 'Heck' and 'Feck' were featured words in my vocabulary.

I actually liked these ones the best of any I've had (I think).

The chipolata ones especially.

I understand that they have stopped making vegan produce now though.
 
maximus otter said:

Harvard doctor says animal products are essential for mental health - in blow to veganism: 'The brain needs meat'​

Dr. Georgia Ede is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist specializing in nutritional and metabolic psychiatry. She has spent 25 years researching the role of diet, particularly ketogenic and carnivore diets, in mental health and brain function, making her an expert on the subject.

According to her research and findings, “the brain needs meat.”

LI-70-Grilling-Steak.png


…[D]espite the health halo that vegan diets have been given over the last few years, she claims that giving up meat could be detrimental for mental health.

‘The brain needs meat,’ she [said].

‘We’re used to hearing that meat is dangerous for our total health, including our brain health, and plants are really the best way to nourish and protect our brains.’

‘But the truth of the matter is that it’s actually — that’s upside down and backward.’

Apparently, meat is the only good that contains “every nutrient we need.”

While animal products like eggs, meat, cheese, and Greek yogurt are high in protein, it can also be found in vegan options like lentils and broccoli.

‘But many of the other essential nutrients are much more difficult if not in some cases impossible to obtain from plants,’ Dr Ede said.

She noted that meat is ‘the only food that contains every nutrient we need in its proper form and is also the safest food for our blood sugar and insulin levels.’

A systematic review of 18 studies in 2021 compared meat-eaters with non-meat-eaters. The study involved 160,257 participants aged 11 to 96 (53% of whom were female), including 149,559 meat-eaters and 8,584 meat-avoiders.

Of these, 11 studies showed that meatless diets were associated with worsened mental health. One of these studies found that vegetarians had a 35.2% chance of developing major depression compared to 19.1% in meat-eaters.

Additionally, the likelihood of developing an anxiety disorder in vegetarians was 31.5% compared to 18.4% in meat-eaters.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13197267/americans-mental-health-eat-meat-veganism.html

- and:

https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/living-without-meat-and-staying-healthy-harvard-1710512787.html

maximus otter
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What about people, like me, who dont eat any meat because they hate the taste? I suppose there are supplements, but which are the best to replace what is being lost so this doesnt happen?
Edit: ummm could be why my doctor put me on B12 lol
Floyd said:
From the 'Full English Breakfast' thread;

@hunck
I tried some Heck sausages recently & didn’t like them all that much - a sort of dense rubbery texture. Of course I still ate them. I wouldn’t rush to buy them again though.

@Mythopoeika
Same experience here. While I was eating them, 'Heck' and 'Feck' were featured words in my vocabulary.

I actually liked these ones the best of any I've had (I think).

The chipolata ones especially.

I understand that they have stopped making vegan produce now though.
Click to expand...
Richmond veggie sausages are my favourite.
I also love ASDAs, OMV No steak and gravy slices, delicious, i never heat them up just have them as is, they do a christmas one as well, they are ok but nothing near the no steak ones.
 
Shady said:
What about people, like me, who dont eat any meat because they hate the taste? I suppose there are supplements, but which are the best to replace what is being lost so this doesnt happen?
Edit: ummm could be why my doctor put me on B12 lol

Richmond veggie sausages are my favourite.
I also love ASDAs, OMV No steak and gravy slices, delicious, i never heat them up just have them as is, they do a christmas one as well, they are ok but nothing near the no steak ones.
Click to expand...
I haven't been in ASDA for years unfortunately and the two supermarkets we have are very poor when it comes to vegan/vegetarian products.

I used to like the Richmonds, but I don't have them much now - I find them a bit stodgy.

I don't know if you eat fish, but if you do, get some Tuna steaks (Iceland is probably your best bet), de-frost (marinate if you wish) and fry them gently.
They can (with a bit of soy sauce I find) taste remarkably like steak and are good the next day as well, say cold with a salad.

I have even diced them up for a stew and they really are similar to beef.

Once they're de-frosted I sometimes rinse them, but you don't usually get a 'fishy' taste anyway.
 
I used to love ASDAs tuna salad but i have gone off it recently, dont really like any of the other fish, and i dont like real milk, i have the plant ones, or soya etc, they are ok they are supposed to have B12 in them and the plant yogurts as well, cant see it written on the labels tho.
The doc told me to take 50 mcg a day of B12
 
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The man who busted the myth of fake meat​

“Plant-based diets are in a tough moment,” says Dr Marco Springmann. “Ten years ago there was a lot of excitement about them. But I think during the cost of living crisis many of the start-up companies struggled, because of their high prices.

TELEMMGLPICT000405231932_17341064941110_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqNJjoeBT78QIaYdkJdEY4CnGTJFJS74MYhNY6w3GNbO8.jpeg


“Recently it has been framed as a culture issue, associated with wokeness, which is a shame,” he adds.

As senior researcher at the University of Oxford’s Environmental Change Institute, Springmann is tackling one of the most contentious food issues of our time: what alternatives should we embrace to replace meat and dairy sustainably and healthily?

His latest research, a comprehensive study of 24 milk and meat alternatives, found that legumes, such as peas, were a better alternative on cost, emissions and health, than veggie burgers and other highly processed vegetarian and vegan options, although they were better than meat and animal milk.

Worst of all were the much-vaunted lab-grown meats. His study found that at current costs they were 40,000 per cent more expensive than real meat, with similar emissions and probably similar health impacts.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/15/the-man-who-busted-the-myth-of-fake-meat/

maximus otter
 

LA vegan chain, blasted for adding meat to menu, abruptly closes all locations​

A storied Los Angeles vegan restaurant is set to close all of its remaining locations after more than a decade, quietly announcing its impending goodbye via an Instagram post at the start of the new year. But unlike its subtle, reflective farewell, the comments on Sage Regenerative Kitchen’s post have been rather vocal — and in some cases, pretty mean.

ratio1x1_960.webp


An interior view of Sage Regenerative Kitchen in Los Angeles. Image via Yelp user Isaac L.

“The planet, and kind customers … weren’t duped by your cruel choices,” reads the most prominent comment, left by animal rights organization PETA; it has more than 200 likes. “I am saddened that you chose to gaslight your former customers and spread misinformation,” reads another.

So what has Sage’s comments section so up in arms? Veganism — and chef/owner Mollie Engelhart’s turn away from the strict practice.

...in the spring of 2024, Engelhart announced a shift in direction for the brand, with plans to “focus on sourcing and proselytizing regenerative farming practices.”

That meant many things, Engelhart promised, including the addition of animal proteins to the restaurant’s menus. Longtime and avowed-vegan customers were not happy.

Sage’s mindset shift was jarring to longtime customers but not totally unexpected. The Los Angeles vegan food scene had been rocked already as prominent plant-based operators such as Hot Tongue Pizza and Burgerlords shifted toward meat for a variety of reasons — often financial.

Sage Regenerative Kitchen’s Culver City location has already disappeared, and its Pasadena and Echo Park outlets will close for good on Jan. 5. “Thank you for 14 incredible years of support,” the company’s closing post reads.

And just below that, another comment: “This is a great day for animals. One less butcher shop posing as a restaurant in town.”

https://www.sfgate.com/la/article/sage-vegan-closing-over-meat-la-20013880.php

maximus otter
 
Kondoru said:
But, notice, this thread is almost all about fake meat rather than veganism as a whole.

I love nuts and beans and any vegan is going to have to fight me for them.
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The Egyptian Ful medames is one of my favourites (although I do have boiled egg with it, so it's only vegetarian);

Picture from Wikipedia.
 

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So has this latest Wellness fad of eating 30 different plants a week - but also incorporating meat, fish and dairy - now replaced veganism as the latest food trend of the chattering classes?

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Hugh's book looks like a vegan cookbook but contains recipes that include dairy, fish, chicken and red meat, ditto the Waitrose magazine.

Veganuary has been an non-event in the mainstream media this year, following on from declining interest and with barely even a mention in the Guardian:

Online searches for Veganuary hit all-time low: Hunts for the annual 'meat-free' month have slumped 62 per cent as shoppers shun products, say experts​

https://www.farmersguardian.com/news/4162330/online-searches-veganuary-hit-low
In 2022, research from the University of Surrey found that while Veganuary successfully boosted the sale of plant-based food, it didn't impact the sales of meat at all.
veganuary meat sales up

So is the whole vegan frenzy that seems to have originated during the pandemic lockdowns now over and the true number of actual, full-time vegans - as opposed to 'vegan tourists' - back to an insignificant proportion of the population but who make a lot of noise?
 
Paul_Exeter said:
So is the whole vegan frenzy that seems to have originated during the pandemic lockdowns now over and the true number of actual, full-time vegans - as opposed to 'vegan tourists' - back to an insignificant proportion of the population but who make a lot of noise?
Click to expand...
Who cares? :dunno:

It's all marketing. :nods:
 
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