• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Untranslatable & Indefinable Words

Here's another good one, no doubt the part-basis for numerous cultural stereotypes:

Key section from longer article:

When someone from Mexico says ‘ahorita’, they should almost never be taken literally; its definition changes dramatically with context. As Dr Concepción Company, linguist and emeritus researcher at the Autonomous University of Mexico in Mexico City, told me, “When a Mexican says ‘ahorita’, it could mean tomorrow, in an hour, within five years or never.”

Ahorita llego, which directly translates to ‘I am arriving right now’, in fact means ‘I will be there in an indeterminate amount of time’, while ahorita regreso (‘I will be right back’) means ‘I will be back at some point but who knows exactly when’. ‘Ahorita’ is even used as a polite way of saying ‘no, thank you’ when refusing an offer. Even after almost seven years in Mexico, this response can still catch me off guard when I’m hosting friends; I find myself hovering, unsure if I should get my guest what I offered them or not.

Mexicans are famous in the Spanish-speaking world for their extensive use of the diminutive. While in most Spanish-speaking countries the addition of the diminutive ‘ita’ to an adverb like ahora (meaning ‘now’) would strengthen it to indicate immediacy (i.e. ‘right now’), this is not the case in Mexico. Dr Company explained that Mexicans instead use the diminutive form to break down the space between the speaker and the listener and lessen formality. In this case of ‘ahorita’, the addition of the diminutive reduces urgency rather than increasing it – a difference that can be extremely confusing for foreigners.

Subtle adjustments to the pronunciation of the word also affect the way ‘ahorita’ is interpreted. “The stretch in the ‘i’ sound in the word ‘ahorita’ is a demonstration of the stretching of time,” Dr Company informed me, implying that the longer the sound, the longer one can expect to wait. Equally, “if you want to imply that you really mean right now, you would say ‘ahorititita’,” she explained, noting the short, sharp sounds represent the idea that something needs to happen at once.

Difficulty interpreting what I have come to call ‘Ahorita Time’ is a reflection of different cultural understandings of time. Dr Company explained that if she is giving a talk in Mexico and goes over her allotted time, Mexicans “feel like I am giving them a gift”. In the UK or the US, however, “The audience starts to leave, feeling like I am wasting their time.” My Mexican friends plan parties for 7pm knowing that no one will show up until at least 8:30pm. Foreigners who are new to Mexico organise events for 8:30pm not knowing that means that most people will arrive at 10pm.

Full Article:
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170725-the-confusing-way-mexicans-tell-time

Edit: Old thread merged here, thread title generalised.
 
Maybe this will fit here, however it's more about wilful mistranslation/misunderstanding: 'The Chinese word for "crisis"'

The Chinese word for "crisis" (simplified Chinese: 危机; traditional Chinese: 危機; pinyin: wēijī) is frequently invoked in Western motivational speaking as being composed of two Chinese characters respectively signifying "danger" and "opportunity". This is, however, largely incorrect, as the primary meaning of the character pronounced (simplified Chinese: ; traditional Chinese: ) is not "opportunity".[1][2]

The Tl;Dr is that, like words in any language, Chinese words can mean a bunch of different things.
 
A tangent, but an entertaining one:

Prisencolinensinainciusol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia



"Prisencolinensinainciusol" [prizeŋkolinensinainˈtʃuːzol] (referred to on the single cover as "Prisencólinensináinciúsol") is a song composed by Adriano Celentano, and performed by Celentano and his wife, singer/actress-turned-record producer Claudia Mori. It was released as a single in 1972, and a popular performance of the song was broadcast on RAI.

Language
The song is meant to sound to its intended Italian audience like English spoken with an American accent, but the lyrics are actually pure gibberish, with the exception of the words "all right". Celentano's intention with the song was to explore communications barriers. "Ever since I started singing, I was very influenced by American music and everything Americans did. So at a certain point, because I like American slang—which, for a singer, is much easier to sing than Italian—I thought that I would write a song which would only have as its theme the inability to communicate. And to do this, I had to write a song where the lyrics didn't mean anything."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisencolinensinainciusol

And here is is!

 
A tangent, but an entertaining one:

Prisencolinensinainciusol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia



"Prisencolinensinainciusol" [prizeŋkolinensinainˈtʃuːzol] (referred to on the single cover as "Prisencólinensináinciúsol") is a song composed by Adriano Celentano, and performed by Celentano and his wife, singer/actress-turned-record producer Claudia Mori. It was released as a single in 1972, and a popular performance of the song was broadcast on RAI.

Language
The song is meant to sound to its intended Italian audience like English spoken with an American accent, but the lyrics are actually pure gibberish, with the exception of the words "all right". Celentano's intention with the song was to explore communications barriers. "Ever since I started singing, I was very influenced by American music and everything Americans did. So at a certain point, because I like American slang—which, for a singer, is much easier to sing than Italian—I thought that I would write a song which would only have as its theme the inability to communicate. And to do this, I had to write a song where the lyrics didn't mean anything."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisencolinensinainciusol

And here is is!


I'm converted .. he has James Brown moves :smoke:..

Your link's directed me to more of this gentleman ..

 
I posted the Celentano vid on What Music weeks ago, and now I'll be darned if I can remember why...
 
A tangent, but an entertaining one:

Prisencolinensinainciusol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopaedia



"Prisencolinensinainciusol" [prizeŋkolinensinainˈtʃuːzol] (referred to on the single cover as "Prisencólinensináinciúsol") is a song composed by Adriano Celentano, and performed by Celentano and his wife, singer/actress-turned-record producer Claudia Mori. It was released as a single in 1972, and a popular performance of the song was broadcast on RAI.

Language
The song is meant to sound to its intended Italian audience like English spoken with an American accent, but the lyrics are actually pure gibberish, with the exception of the words "all right". Celentano's intention with the song was to explore communications barriers. "Ever since I started singing, I was very influenced by American music and everything Americans did. So at a certain point, because I like American slang—which, for a singer, is much easier to sing than Italian—I thought that I would write a song which would only have as its theme the inability to communicate. And to do this, I had to write a song where the lyrics didn't mean anything."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisencolinensinainciusol

And here is is!


Reminds me of the book English As She Is Spoke by a Portuguese writer that was intended as a phrase book between those languages, but ended up with mis-translated sayings such as "after the paunch comes the dance" and "to craunch the marmoset".
 
Reminds me of the book English As She Is Spoke by a Portuguese writer that was intended as a phrase book between those languages, but ended up with mis-translated sayings such as "after the paunch comes the dance" and "to craunch the marmoset".
The great Pedro Caralino! I actually had a copy of this for a while. Happily it's available online, with an extensive introduction here.
Very dissatisfied customer (brandishing pistol): Here is a horse who have a bad looks. Give me another; I will not that. He not sall know to march, he is pursy, he is foundered. Don't you are ashamed to give me a jade as like? he is undshoed, he is with nails up; it want to lead to the farrier.
Terrified horse dealer: Your pistols are its loads?
Sublime.
 
This is the key part of an interesting longer piece. If you have time, begin at the beginning.

Mamihlapinatapai comes from the near-extinct Yaghan language. According to Vargas’ own interpretation, “It is the moment of meditation around the pusakí [fire in Yaghan] when the grandparents transmit their stories to the young people. It’s that instant in which everyone is quiet.”

But since the 19th Century, the word has held a different meaning – one to which people all over the world relate.

Magellan’s discovery of a ‘land of fire’ prompted more long-distance voyages to the region. In the 1860s, British missionary and linguist Thomas Bridges set up a mission in Ushuaia. He spent the next 20 years living among the Yaghans and compiled around 32,000 of their words and inflections in a Yaghan-English dictionary. The English translation of mamihlapinatapai, which differs from Vargas’ interpretation, debuted in an essay by Bridges: “To look at each other, hoping that either will offer to do something, which both parties much desire done but are unwilling to do."

“Bridges’ dictionary records ihlapi, ‘awkward’, from which one could derive ihlapi-na, ‘to feel awkward’; ihlapi-na-ta, ‘to cause to feel awkward’; and mam-ihlapi-na-ta-pai, something like ‘to make each other feel awkward’ in a literal translation,” said Yoram Meroz, one of the few linguists who have studied the Yaghan language. “[Bridges’ translation] is more of an idiomatic or free translation.”

However, the word does not appear in Bridges’ dictionary – perhaps because it was seldom used, or possibly because he planned to include the word in the third edition of the dictionary, which he was working on before he died in 1898.

“It could be that he heard the word once or twice in that particular context, and that’s how he wrote it, because he wasn’t aware of its more general meaning. Or that it was only used in this more specific meaning that he quotes,” Meroz explained. “Bridges knew Yahgan better than any European before or since. However, he was sometimes prone to exoticising the language, and to being very verbose in his translations.”

Accurate or not, Bridges’ translation of mamihlapinatapai sparked a widespread fascination with the word that continues to this day. “The word got popularised by Bridges and was quoted and re-quoted in English-language materials,” Meroz said.

In many interpretations, the word came to signify a look between would-be lovers. On the internet, its definition is worded slightly differently as ‘a look shared by two people, each wishing that the other would initiate something that they both desire but which neither wants to begin’. Films, music, art, literature and poetry have all conjured its seemingly implicit romance and marvelled at its supposed ability to concisely capture a complex human interaction. The 1994 Guinness Book of World Records even listed mamihlapinatapai as the world’s most succinct word.

“The meaning is quite beautiful,” says a girl in the 2011 crowdsourced documentary Life in a Day, which portrays a single day on Earth. “It can be perhaps two tribal leaders both wanting to make peace, but neither wanting to be the one to begin it. Or it could be two people at a party wanting to approach each other, and neither are quite brave enough to make the first move.”

But what mamihlapinatapai actually meant to the Yaghans will likely remain a mystery. Now 89 years old, Calderon is the last fluent speaker of Yaghan, a language isolate whose origins remain unknown. Born on Isla Navarino, Chile, across the Beagle Channel from Ushuaia, she didn’t learn Spanish until she was nine years old. Meroz has visited Calderon several times to translate Yaghan recordings and texts. But when he asked her about mamihlapinatapai, she did not recognise the word.
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180402-mamihlapinatapai-a-lost-languages-untranslatable-legacy
 
Desire, I think, more than nostalgia. "Longing" would be the best English equivalent, but the German word has more sweetness to it. It gets into a lot of lieder! :)
 
As do weltschmerz and weltanschauung (which are both useful deutscheloanwürden that can velcommenly-surface im englischsprache after a few beers usw)
I love weltanschauung, it just rolls off the tongue.
 
Most chat programs seem to lack the right emoticons for germans. Where is the smiley for fernweh or weltschmertz?
 
but I was guessing for most of them.
Ditto-snap...however....I was 'guessing' in a way that I can often do. Probably applying a slant similar to @Mythopoeika 's above

I'm often more right than I should be, generally, through chance, when I'm forced to make what are slightly (or totally un-)informed decisions. I avoid doing this, unless I've absolutely no other option, and ideally under circumstances where the stakes are not too high.
2018-05-13 10.54.43.png
 
This extended essay is a fascinating examination of the problems encountered when speakers of certain languages have no words for common scientific words or concepts. Much of the discussion addresses Zulu, but examples are drawn from other languages, too.
What happens when 12m people have no word for 'dinosaur'

English is the world’s dominant scientific language, yet it has no word for the distinctive smell of cockroaches. What happens though, if you have no words for basic scientific terms? ...
FULL STORY: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200116-what-happens-when-you-have-no-word-for-dinosaur
 
Back
Top