Who Believes In Me?

[Anonymous]

We don't need no steenking beliefs!

Here'a a thing. I generally describe myself as pagan, where the word is an adjective not a noun. This is because pagan, as far as I am concerned, retains its dictionary definition of meaning one who does not follow one of the major monotheistic religions of Judaism, Islam or Christianity.

In the poll I answered "agnostic" because I don't have any beliefs. The weird stuff that goes on in my life goes on whether or not I believe in it, just as the table in front of me is there no matter what my particular opinion is.

As for God (as in the God referred to by Christians) I had an experience once in which I met something that was identified to me as an ancient aspect of God. It was like a mathematical equation, very precise, and was a representation of the universe in something approaching mathematical terms. I was told that this was what the Qabballah was all about, and this entity was quite cross, really, at having been turned into a version of Old Father Time who sat in the sky wagging a disapproving finger at people. This God didn't really give a damn in any sense that humans are capable of understanding, because it was a mathematical expression of the universe.

In Saami mythos there is a deity called Vahiyinin, who represents Existence. If the Existence of this universe were able to be described mathematically, that description would be what this other entity I met was. It was omniscient and perfect because it wasn't a person in any sense of the word, because it described everything. It was the answer to life, the universe and everything - put in a question (give the correct values to the representative variables) and out pops the answer. It's a very difficult experience to describe.

Do I believe in God? No. I get followed around supermarkets by a non-consensus big black bird who has occasionally tied people's shoelaces together in public places. Don't believe in him either. That doesn't stop me experiencing these things, though.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm wondering how many people on here think that I'm the satanist. Go on, admit it, some of you do.

i never presume.

I would however like to know who the satanist is but as I said before they may never come out as there was such a reaction agaenst satansim on this thread.

 

[Bannik]

I believe in a pretty literal version of the old testament god. I see him as a kind of giant, mean-spirited, super Santa Claus who lives in the clouds and watches our every move, sees our every thought. If you do something he disapproves of, he doesn't send you coal for X-mas, he sends you to a lake of fire for eternity. I don't choose to believe this, you understand - it's just something that's been ingrained in me.

Still, I don't concern myself much with him anymore. Somebody who's as jealous, violent, and judgemental as he is must have really low self-esteem, so I can't really take him that seriously. Besides, when he sends me to hell I'll be able to hang out with all my friends and loved-ones for eternity. I get the feeling there'll be lots of booze there, too. Nice. 8)

 

[Anonymous]

I tell christians that I'm atheist, and everyone else that I'm agnostic. Tends to minimize the bother.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

I'm wondering how many people on here think that I'm the satanist. Go on, admit it, some of you do.

i never presume.

I would however like to know who the satanist is but as I said before they may never come out as there was such a reaction agaenst satansim on this thread.

In a bizarre twist of fate the one vote came from the FTMB itself. With some nudging by the Trickster it rose to very brief consciousness, voted, had a giggle and slumped back to its (rather limited) machine intelligence again.

I voted agnostic because GOD told me to.

 

[Timble2]

I've started telling people who ask me in the street if 'I've heard the good news from Jesus' and suchlike that actually I'm batting for Lucifer.

(I checked agnostic on the poll.)

BTW: what brought this thread back to life?

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

\/ \/ See below \/ \/

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

BTW: what brought this thread back to life?

Jesus?

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

BTW: what brought this thread back to life?

Jesus?

Bannik

Or is that the same thing?

 

[Timble2]

BTW: what brought this thread back to life?

Jesus?

Bannik

Or is that the same thing?

I was just wondering how Bannik chanced upon it since it's been dormant since 2002.

 

[lopaka]

BTW: what brought this thread back to life?

Jesus?

Bannik

Or is that the same thing?

No wonder Bannik was asking about changing his title the other day: :shock: :shock: :shock:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewt ... 937#480937

 

[Bannik]

BTW: what brought this thread back to life?

Jesus?

Bannik

Or is that the same thing?

Certainly. Can't you see the resemblance?

http://www.aciprensa.com/Banco/images/jesus.jpg

http://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~tales/images/bilibin_bannik.gif

Timble - I was browsing through an IHTM thread where people were discussing God and that got me thinking about God. Rather than doing the expected thing and posting my thoughts on that thread, I decided to resurrect this one because I'm Jesus and resurrecting things is one of my specialties.

 

[giantrobot1]

What happens in other religions?

We have 1 Muslim and 2 Buddhists who cast their votes on the poll. It would be good to hear from them - to have their particular take on these debates.

For example, can you be a non-practising Muslim or a non- practising Buddhist?

Heather

*puts up hand*

I'm one of the Buddhists. I practice with the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, and am also very much influenced by the Gelug school.

Edited to add:

I think Buddhism lies solely in the practicing of it. Beliefs, per se, aren't useful in Buddhist practice, the whole point is to actually walk the walk, not talk the talk.

 

[boynamedsue]

Hi this is my first non facetious post


Giant Robot: Is Buddhism without spirituality not just a meditation regime? (Not being hostile, genuinely want to know)

Always found the idea of Buddhism quite sinister. That a human being can attain a state better than human strikes me as a denial of the value of humanity. And that people who are born with certain advantages deserve them for virtue in a former life can be easily misinterpreted to back up very reactionary world views. Also the legends are annoying (a deer turns up and helps everyone out...who might this mysterious deer be? why it's the future Buddha! again! Just like in the last story)...

I'd properly buy into it if we could be reincarnated anywhere in space and time, and that every living thing was a different incarnation of one soul....eventually we'd all wind up being born as Siddhartra..... That would be an ace religion... be nice to everyone because you ARE them...

:shock:

ok, am wrecking own head. Gonna go think about football somewhere.

 

[giantrobot1]

Giant Robot: Is Buddhism without spirituality not just a meditation regime? (Not being hostile, genuinely want to know)

Depends what you mean by 'spirituality'. And what you mean by 'meditation regime'.

One of THE most important elemnts of Buddhism is the cultivation of compassion. It's seen as a vital element of practice, and gains paramount importance in Mahayana philosophy. So if that's what you would call spirituality, then it's present throughout Buddhist teachings. However, this has to be actually put into practice, not talked about. Words by themselves are useless.

Always found the idea of Buddhism quite sinister. That a human being can attain a state better than human strikes me as a denial of the value of humanity.

It's not a denial of anyhting, in that sense. It simply takes the view that suffering and confusion are not mandatory states, and can be overcome. There's no reason whatsoever to have to put up with them.

And that people who are born with certain advantages deserve them for virtue in a former life can be easily misinterpreted to back up very reactionary world views.

This requires a hell of a lot of deliberate misinterpretation, and any educated Buddhist would recognise this. Of course, this wouldn't stop everyone.

To counteract any notions of superiority, the doctrine of Tagathatagarbha ("buddha-nature", which is a lousy translation) is tought, which demonstrates how the essential nature of ALL sentient beings has the unmanifest characteristics of a Buddha, so all will eventually become perfectly enlightened, and the direct cause of that is already present in the nature of their minds. The obscurations of this buddha-nature are temporary and overcomable. It's the direct opposite of 'original sin'.

Also the legends are annoying (a deer turns up and helps everyone out...who might this mysterious deer be? why it's the future Buddha! again! Just like in the last story)...

I like them.

I'd properly buy into it if we could be reincarnated anywhere in space and time, and that every living thing was a different incarnation of one soul....eventually we'd all wind up being born as Siddhartra..... That would be an ace religion... be nice to everyone because you ARE them...

Well time only flows one way, but ultimately isn't real. As for being reborn anywhere, sentient beings are said to exist as far as space extends. There's no concept of a 'super soul', though. In fact the concept of a 'soul' (pugdala) is explicitly rejected by all Buddhist schools. That's where it gets very interesting.

 

[boynamedsue]

Thanks GR

That's the meditation regime part cleared up anyway.

Still think one of the non-future-buddha deer should get a bit of the glory every now an again tho!

What is the part that is transferred in reincarnation, if not the soul? (question not rhetorical. Am sometimes afflicted with argumentative tone of voice in writing. Articles, prepositions and verbs also missed)

The embryonic enlightenment within us all is nice (not as nice as my supersoul thing, but hey...) is anyone believed to have reached enlightenment already, excepting himself?

 

[CygnusRex]

Would it be possible to add an option for 'None'?

 

[Mythopoeika]

Isn't that covered under 'Atheist'?

 

[giantrobot1]

Thanks GR

That's the meditation regime part cleared up anyway.

Still think one of the non-future-buddha deer should get a bit of the glory every now an again tho!

Well, all deers are future buddhas.

Not all of the Jataka stories (which are the stories of the previous lives of the Buddha) are of the Buddha acting nicely. There are some where he makes a real pig's ear of things and winds up in a hell for ages for acting terribly.

What is the part that is transferred in reincarnation, if not the soul? (question not rhetorical. Am sometimes afflicted with argumentative tone of voice in writing. Articles, prepositions and verbs also missed)

This can get amazingly complex, BTW.

A 'soul' would have to be a something that was unchanging and didn't depend on something else for it's existence. Also, if it could be broken down into sub-parts, then it can't be the kind of 'ultimate' nature of a person, nor their 'true self'. Since the body and the mind both change over time, neither can be said to be ultimate in nature, but dependently originate on the causes and conditions that produce them.

The mind, however, is basically beginingless and endless. It is a constant sequence of individual moments, like a film strip. Not some immortal 'thing'. Big difference! It's is the very basic form of the mind that endlessly produces the perception of a body and mind in an endless sequence, until the causes of this process are destroyed. The reason you might want to do this is that the process only produces flawed experiences that are essentially marred with suffering. What happens after the process is destroyed, ie what you experience after enlightenment, depends on various factors.

The embryonic enlightenment within us all is nice (not as nice as my supersoul thing, but hey...) is anyone believed to have reached enlightenment already, excepting himself?

Yes. Plenty of people. There are various levels of 'enlightenment', and people have attained all different levels since the historical Buddha taught. One such important figure is Padmasambhava who is jointly responsible for bringin Buddhism in its Tantric form to Tibet. He is classified as a Buddha. In the present day, there are a few fairly well known people who are considered close. The late Kalu Rinpoche (http://www.kagyu.org/karmapa/tea/tea11.html) was apparently a high level bodhisattva (buddha in the making). The 17th Karmapa is also someone who is a VERY advanced practitioner, even though he's in his early twenties.

 

[boynamedsue]

Thanx for all the info... really appreciated.

Just one last thing....

Who decided Kalu Rinpoche was a bodhisattva?

I mean, if someone says "I am a bodhisattva" what can be done to verify this? In fact, how did Kalu Rinpoche know this? I dont picture Buddhism as a religion which has a final arbiter in place to dispense judgments on this.

 

[CygnusRex]

Isn't that covered under 'Atheist'?

Should have been clearer, I don't deny the possible existence of a God/Gods/spirits, but have never found a compelling reason to believe in any of them.
Hence no belief system, rather than outright and structured disbelief

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Isn't that covered under 'Atheist'?

Should have been clearer, I don't deny the possible existence of a God/Gods/spirits, but have never found a compelling reason to believe in any of them.
Hence no belief system, rather than outright and structured disbelief

Then you are an agnostic

 

[giantrobot1]

Thanx for all the info... really appreciated.

Just one last thing....

Who decided Kalu Rinpoche was a bodhisattva?

I mean, if someone says "I am a bodhisattva" what can be done to verify this? In fact, how did Kalu Rinpoche know this? I dont picture Buddhism as a religion which has a final arbiter in place to dispense judgments on this.

It would normally be decided by the person's teacher. Lineage is very important in this respect. You relay your experiences and insight to them, and they will know how well you're doing. If you get to a certain level of attainment, then you too can become a recognised teacher.

Although to be honest, when you meet a person that's actually achieved anything, it's pretty obvious. There's a ridiculous degree of self awareness and openness. Kalu Rinpoche was apparently one such person.

People have, of course, set themselves up as gurus in the past, and will continue to do so. Of course, there are plenty of followers wanting gurus too.

Blind faith, importantly, is not something that is very useful. It can do more harm than good. The Buddhist advice is that the key is to never stop questioning until you're satisfied with the answer.

 

[CygnusRex]

Isn't that covered under 'Atheist'?

Should have been clearer, I don't deny the possible existence of a God/Gods/spirits, but have never found a compelling reason to believe in any of them.
Hence no belief system, rather than outright and structured disbelief

Then you are an agnostic

No, I'm not sure I believe in agnosticism

 

[giantrobot1]

Add nihilist! Add nihilist!

"We believe in nothing, Lebowski, NOTHING!"

 

[Melf]

A 'soul' would have to be a something that was unchanging and didn't depend on something else for it's existence.

iirc the celts also belevied in reincarnation

[quote="giantrobot] The mind, however, is basically beginingless and endless. It is a constant sequence of individual moments, [/quote]

just like forts dictum(?) " you measure a circle from anywhere"

 

[escargot]

Get yer Exorcistate-baiting here!



Though it looks like the only posters still standing are me, @stu neville, @Timble2 and @Mythopoeika. So it goes.

 

[Swifty]

Get yer Exorcistate-baiting here!



Though it looks like the only posters still standing are me, @stu neville, @Timble2 and @Mythopoeika. So it goes.

Wrong. .. big man with a beard sitting in a cloud? .. not likely .. some other deity waiting to see how this all pans out? .. I reckon so.

 

[escargot]

Wrong. .. big man with a beard sitting in a cloud? .. not likely .. some other deity waiting to see how this all pans out? .. I reckon so.

He'll appreciate that mention.

 

[Ogdred Weary]

I am disgusted that Cthulhu Cultist is not an option.