Britain: Police State?

Yithian

Parish Watch
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
26,910
Likes
28,024
Points
309
Location
East of Suez
I voted remain, but am humble enough to accept that I may have been wrong and that we have to go with the decision. There are intelligent and well intentioned people on both sides, and there are stupid and self-interested people on both sides.
Exactly. Whilst a Remainer myself, I cannot abide the anti-Brexit argument that 52% of votes only represents around a third of the electorate.

Those Remainers who try to extrapolate non-votes into some mythical majority (and also those who really want the economy to go titsup just so they can sneer "told you so!" ) are those who give Remain a bad name.
Let's keep this abstract please.
It's only inviting a 'Remainer' counter-argument.

We've already lost members from the board over BREXIT.
 

blessmycottonsocks

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
3,347
Likes
4,935
Points
154
Location
Wessex and Mercia
Let's keep this abstract please.
It's only inviting a 'Remainer' counter-argument.

We've already lost members from the board over BREXIT.
It wasn't my intention to argue any specific political cause here, but to highlight the importance of voting and to reinforce the point that non-votes aren't worth anything.
 

AnonyJoolz

Captainess Sensible
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
811
Likes
2,210
Points
134
Location
Having a nice cup of tea and a sit-down.
You forgot to include the Christian Right/the religious right I think you're being a bit naughty leavening them out.
Oh, I'll criticise any extremist nutbags! (in a reasoned and polite manner, apart from my opinion that I think they're nutbags, I hope)

But my reply was to bob61 who seems to think Britain is turning into a police state and no-one can voice anything about a 'nameless religion' (meaning Islam, maybe) and I invited him to come over and maybe experience Britain for itself, and telling him my opinion/experience.
 

Naughty_Felid

No longer interesting
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
6,171
Likes
6,809
Points
294
So what, exactly, is inside the mother's womb; and what changes in the last 1/32" of her birth canal?

maximus otter
Abortion is done up to 19 weeks, (over 90% is done under 13 weeks), birth usually arrives after 38.

I'll tell you about a man's wee-wee needing to go into the woman's foo-foo next if you want.
 

Naughty_Felid

No longer interesting
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
6,171
Likes
6,809
Points
294
My niece has resisted all attempts to move on from "dingaling" and "toot toot".

Nursery has a lot to answer for!

I love "foo-foo" as it can also describe women having a meltdown or just angry.

"Did you see Donna? She had a right foo-foo fit"

"Marion was in a right foo-foo the other day".
 

Yithian

Parish Watch
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
26,910
Likes
28,024
Points
309
Location
East of Suez
My niece has resisted all attempts to move on from "dingaling" and "toot toot".

Nursery has a lot to answer for!
I taught my daughter the terms 'boy bits' and 'girl bits'.

The phrases were spontaneous extemporisation, but I keep wondering whether they lodged in my memory from somewhere external.
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
4,988
Likes
9,199
Points
234
Abortion is done up to 19 weeks, (over 90% is done under 13 weeks)...
In the UK 24 weeks. For “socioeconomic reasons”.

After 24 weeks if necessary “for medical reasons”:

“In R v British Broadcasting Corporation, ex parte ProLife Alliance, Lord Justice Laws said:
“There is some evidence that many doctors maintain that the continuance of a pregnancy is always more dangerous to the physical welfare of a woman than having an abortion, a state of affairs which is said to allow a situation of de facto abortion on demand to prevail.”. ”​
l’m an atheist with no axe to grind. However, maintaining that a six-month foetus is anything other than a proto-human being is mere casuistry.

maximus otter
 

Naughty_Felid

No longer interesting
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
6,171
Likes
6,809
Points
294
In the UK 24 weeks. For “socioeconomic reasons”.

After 24 weeks if necessary “for medical reasons”:

“In R v British Broadcasting Corporation, ex parte ProLife Alliance, Lord Justice Laws said:
“There is some evidence that many doctors maintain that the continuance of a pregnancy is always more dangerous to the physical welfare of a woman than having an abortion, a state of affairs which is said to allow a situation of de facto abortion on demand to prevail.”. ”​
l’m an atheist with no axe to grind. However, maintaining that a six-month foetus is anything other than a proto-human being is mere casuistry.

maximus otter
Yes, there are exceptions and this is usually to save a mother's life - is this wrong?
 

maximus otter

Recovering policeman
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
4,988
Likes
9,199
Points
234
Yes, there are exceptions and this is usually to save a mother's life - is this wrong?
Your statement here was: “Abortion doesn’t kill children”.

Up until 24 weeks - by which time a foetus is entirely recognizable as human, and can in some instances survive outside the mother - it is legal to destroy it for “socioeconomic reasons”, which l’m sure you’d agree is a very vague term.

My question: What do you call this?:



24 week foetus

maximus otter
 

AnonyJoolz

Captainess Sensible
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Messages
811
Likes
2,210
Points
134
Location
Having a nice cup of tea and a sit-down.
I feel Britain would be on its way to proto- 'police state' if it didn't have fairly liberal pregnancy termination rules, balanced out and changed as & when medical advances suggest.

I might not agree with the procedure and the reasons for it but not allowing some autonomy in reproductive rights in either direction leads to situations of state-sponsored serial pregnancy (eg Romania in the Ceacescu era) and state-enfored abortions (China).
 

Cochise

Antediluvian
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
5,142
Likes
5,017
Points
284
I feel Britain would be on its way to proto- 'police state' if it didn't have fairly liberal pregnancy termination rules, balanced out and changed as & when medical advances suggest.

I might not agree with the procedure and the reasons for it but not allowing some autonomy in reproductive rights in either direction leads to situations of state-sponsored serial pregnancy (eg Romania in the Ceacescu era) and state-enfored abortions (China).
As long as the advances in medical science are recognised and acted on. And that the possible risks of both courses of action are clearly understood.

I speak from experience having no particular axe to grind before discovering the permanent mental damage my wife had suffered as a result of being 'persuaded' into an abortion by a previous boyfriend. All circumstances considered it was probably the right thing to do but she never got over the guilt.

Whether that had anything to do with us being unable to conceive I have no idea, I had a child from a previous marriage so there was no obvious reason why we should have been unable to do so.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
48,816
Likes
20,884
Points
284
Location
Eblana
As long as the advances in medical science are recognised and acted on. And that the possible risks of both courses of action are clearly understood.

I speak from experience having no particular axe to grind before discovering the permanent mental damage my wife had suffered as a result of being 'persuaded' into an abortion by a previous boyfriend. All circumstances considered it was probably the right thing to do but she never got over the guilt.

Whether that had anything to do with us being unable to conceive I have no idea, I had a child from a previous marriage so there was no obvious reason why we should have been unable to do so.
It's so sad that your wife suffered from being forced into an abortion, it obviously wasn't her choice.

But where women do have a choice they are much less likely to regret it if they do have an abortion.

I know that you are genuine and have no axe to grind but anti-abortion groups pretend that most women who choose abortion, suffer from regret and guilt.

Abortion: 95% of women do not regret procedure
Published Tuesday 14 July 2015
By David McNamee
"Postabortion trauma syndrome" is described by anti-abortion campaigners as a common mental health problem experienced by women who choose to terminate their pregnancies. However, the results of a new study published in PLOS ONE suggest there is no evidence for this syndrome. In the study, 95% of women who had abortions said that it had been the right decision for them.
Among women who had abortions, relief outweighed any negative emotions, even after 3 years.
Image credit: ANSIRH


The results of the new study are part of the large, ongoing Turnaway study, conducted by a research group and think tank at the University of California, San Francisco, known as Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH).

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/296756.php
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2015
Messages
8,865
Likes
10,786
Points
279
It's so sad that your wife suffered from being forced into an abortion, it obviously wasn't her choice.

But where women do have a choice they are much less likely to regret it if they do have an abortion.

I know that you are genuine and have no axe to grind but anti-abortion groups pretend that most women who choose abortion, suffer from regret and guilt.

Abortion: 95% of women do not regret procedure
Published Tuesday 14 July 2015
By David McNamee
"Postabortion trauma syndrome" is described by anti-abortion campaigners as a common mental health problem experienced by women who choose to terminate their pregnancies. However, the results of a new study published in PLOS ONE suggest there is no evidence for this syndrome. In the study, 95% of women who had abortions said that it had been the right decision for them.
Among women who had abortions, relief outweighed any negative emotions, even after 3 years.
Image credit: ANSIRH


The results of the new study are part of the large, ongoing Turnaway study, conducted by a research group and think tank at the University of California, San Francisco, known as Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH).

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/296756.php
Interesting, thank you.
 

Floyd1

Ephemeral Spectre
Joined
Apr 2, 2019
Messages
433
Likes
708
Points
93
Ok, I wasn't going to use this. But I feel it may bring it home to those who use your above arguments.

A few years ago, in the early evening, there was a knock on the door. And it was the police.
'Do you own a Citroen XX XX XXX ?

Yes, I do.

Do you know where it is at the moment ?

Yes, it's outside my gate; let's go look'

And, of course, it wasn't there.

The police had been driving through our estate and recognised a local scumbag sat in a car (mine) and they arrested him as he tried to escape. He threw away the keys as he ran.

Now, what had happened is that this scumbag had walked down the path to my house, opened the door and taken two coats from a rack in the hallway. And in one of the pockets were my car keys. So he took the car.

At the time there was a group of relations in various parts of the house. I was watching tv in a room with a glass door that the person had passed to get to the coats. Never saw anything.

I never got the keys back and as the house keys were on the same bunch I had to do a frantic lock change to protect the home. Also had to change the padlocks on my sheds, and the steering and door locks on the car.

The police recovered the coats from a co-thief of this scumbag. but I couldn't have them back just yet as they were wanted for evidence. And as I was going on holiday the following week I had to buy a new coat.

This person was a very well known criminal. and had been up before the beak on a few occasions. But never locked up.

So, what justice was heaped on his head ? Remember, habitual thug and criminal, caught by the police in a stolen car, sat in the driver seat with the keys from a stolen coat obtained by illegal entry to a house.

He got nothing.

I got a letter from the CPS saying that he wasn't going to be prosecuted. And that they couldn't reveal his name as he was under age. That is bollocks, he was eighteen at the time. And his name had already been posted in the local paper.

And there was a sequel.

A few month later this person got into an argument with someone and, using a piece of timber, smashed this person up so badly that he had to be formally identified by his teeth.

This time he was sent down.

Proper justice would have seen him taken down into the cellar and strangled before his vile corpus was thrown into a furnace.

And these people breed; man do they breed. We have whole estates that are crawling with similar people who the law know it is wasting it's time rounding up as the judiciary will probably let them go. Free to wander off smirking into the sunset, already planning their next crime.

INT21
I sympathize with you. As you say, after such an experience it then puts you on edge for probably the rest of your life. Certainly while you live in the same place/area at least. I also have had to put up with a low-life. Just one on/in your street/neighbourhood is all that's needed to ruin decent people's lives. - One does have to wonder about the justice system in Britain; There was a horrific murder in Worcester in 1973. The guy David McGreavy, killed three children- 8 months, 2 years and four years old. Then after attacking them with a pickaxe, he impaled them on the iron railings in the garden of the house. In 2006 the Sun newspaper published a photo of him walking around Liverpool (on his own) on day release from an open prison. There was (naturally) public uproar about this so they moved him back to a 'proper' prison. However, in December 2018 he was 'cleared for release' and as far as I'm aware is now living as free as you or I am. (Probably even more free as no doubt he'll be on some kind of benefits and won't have to work). The Mother of the three children is still alive- imagine how she feels.
 

Yossarian

Junior Acolyte
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
95
Likes
208
Points
39
I don't want to wade too far into the abortion debate, but would say that I know women for whom their abortion was absolutely the right decision, but still felt a great deal of remorse, guilt, and suffered a significant period of depression after the fact.

I say this not to present it as an argument against abortion, but as an argument against many anti-abortion types who seem to think that it's a decision made frivolously, that abortion is just being used as a type of birth control. No one is pro abortion, no one's out there having them just because they can, it is never a decision taken likely, but it's a choice everyone should have the right to make.

Ultimately, making abortions illegal doesn't make abortions stop happening, it just means the abortions that do happen aren't safe or regulated, and that's by far the worse option.
 

Cochise

Antediluvian
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
5,142
Likes
5,017
Points
284
Yes, there are exceptions and this is usually to save a mother's life - is this wrong?
Well, taken to the extreme no woman should ever get pregnant because it might kill them. If it is being done after say 20 weeks for genuine health reasons I'm fine with that, but as Maximus was saying, in the UK the law as at stands at minimum provides a loophole for a late term abortion to be carried out when the situation is not life threatening.
 

Cochise

Antediluvian
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
5,142
Likes
5,017
Points
284
It's so sad that your wife suffered from being forced into an abortion, it obviously wasn't her choice.

But where women do have a choice they are much less likely to regret it if they do have an abortion.

I know that you are genuine and have no axe to grind but anti-abortion groups pretend that most women who choose abortion, suffer from regret and guilt.

Abortion: 95% of women do not regret procedure
Published Tuesday 14 July 2015
By David McNamee
"Postabortion trauma syndrome" is described by anti-abortion campaigners as a common mental health problem experienced by women who choose to terminate their pregnancies. However, the results of a new study published in PLOS ONE suggest there is no evidence for this syndrome. In the study, 95% of women who had abortions said that it had been the right decision for them.
Among women who had abortions, relief outweighed any negative emotions, even after 3 years.
Image credit: ANSIRH


The results of the new study are part of the large, ongoing Turnaway study, conducted by a research group and think tank at the University of California, San Francisco, known as Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH).

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/296756.php
Entirely fair - my wife was one of the 5% and the fact that she felt she was talked in to an abortion by a partner who turned out to be physically abusive is probably as much to blame as the abortion itself.

Nevertheless, one is advised of possible side effects of treatment when the risk is much less than 1 in 20. All I'm saying is that the debate over abortion should not prevent those considering an abortion from being given the full facts, both positive and negative.
 

Yithian

Parish Watch
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
26,910
Likes
28,024
Points
309
Location
East of Suez
In the case of rape, if the woman wants an abortion she should get it, of that, I agree with it 100%
Yes and no.

I, too, agree that she should be permitted to abort the pregnancy, but I don't think the procedure should be permitted at a later than usual stage.

The vital question is where to draw the line.

I have a long post on the subject of abortion gestating, but I'm going to wait until I have my thoughts completely clear.
 

Shady

Mary Queen of Scots...temping as DEATHS Kitty
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
8,039
Likes
9,702
Points
284
Well, I expect if she has been raped then she will have kept an eye on the fact that she may be pregnant and deal with it as soon as she can
 
Top