Britain: Police State?

[blessmycottonsocks]

Let's keep this abstract please.
It's only inviting a 'Remainer' counter-argument.

We've already lost members from the board over BREXIT.

It wasn't my intention to argue any specific political cause here, but to highlight the importance of voting and to reinforce the point that non-votes aren't worth anything.

 

[Yithian]

It wasn't my intention to argue any specific political cause here, but to highlight the importance of voting and to reinforce the point that non-votes aren't worth anything.

I don't doubt it.

 

[AnonyJ]

You forgot to include the Christian Right/the religious right I think you're being a bit naughty leavening them out.

Oh, I'll criticise any extremist nutbags! (in a reasoned and polite manner, apart from my opinion that I think they're nutbags, I hope)

But my reply was to bob61 who seems to think Britain is turning into a police state and no-one can voice anything about a 'nameless religion' (meaning Islam, maybe) and I invited him to come over and maybe experience Britain for itself, and telling him my opinion/experience.

 

[maximus otter]

Abortion doesn't kill children as to be a child you have to be born.

Please tell us what, exactly, is inside the mother's womb; and what changes in the last 1/32" of her birth canal?

maximus otter

 

[Naughty_Felid]

So what, exactly, is inside the mother's womb; and what changes in the last 1/32" of her birth canal?

maximus otter

Abortion is done up to 19 weeks, (over 90% is done under 13 weeks), birth usually arrives after 38.

I'll tell you about a man's wee-wee needing to go into the woman's foo-foo next if you want.

 

[Frideswide]

My niece has resisted all attempts to move on from "dingaling" and "toot toot".

Nursery has a lot to answer for!

 

[Naughty_Felid]

My niece has resisted all attempts to move on from "dingaling" and "toot toot".

Nursery has a lot to answer for!

I love "foo-foo" as it can also describe women having a meltdown or just angry.

"Did you see Donna? She had a right foo-foo fit"

"Marion was in a right foo-foo the other day".

 

[Yithian]

My niece has resisted all attempts to move on from "dingaling" and "toot toot".

Nursery has a lot to answer for!

I taught my daughter the terms 'boy bits' and 'girl bits'.

The phrases were spontaneous extemporisation, but I keep wondering whether they lodged in my memory from somewhere external.

 

[maximus otter]

Abortion is done up to 19 weeks, (over 90% is done under 13 weeks)...

In the UK 24 weeks. For “socioeconomic reasons”.

After 24 weeks if necessary “for medical reasons”:

“In R v British Broadcasting Corporation, ex parte ProLife Alliance, Lord Justice Laws said:

“There is some evidence that many doctors maintain that the continuance of a pregnancy is always more dangerous to the physical welfare of a woman than having an abortion, a state of affairs which is said to allow a situation of de facto abortion on demand to prevail.”. ”​

l’m an atheist with no axe to grind. However, maintaining that a six-month foetus is anything other than a proto-human being is mere casuistry.

maximus otter

 

[Naughty_Felid]

In the UK 24 weeks. For “socioeconomic reasons”.

After 24 weeks if necessary “for medical reasons”:

“In R v British Broadcasting Corporation, ex parte ProLife Alliance, Lord Justice Laws said:

“There is some evidence that many doctors maintain that the continuance of a pregnancy is always more dangerous to the physical welfare of a woman than having an abortion, a state of affairs which is said to allow a situation of de facto abortion on demand to prevail.”. ”​

l’m an atheist with no axe to grind. However, maintaining that a six-month foetus is anything other than a proto-human being is mere casuistry.

maximus otter

Yes, there are exceptions and this is usually to save a mother's life - is this wrong?

 

[maximus otter]

Yes, there are exceptions and this is usually to save a mother's life - is this wrong?

Your statement here was: “Abortion doesn’t kill children”.

Up until 24 weeks - by which time a foetus is entirely recognizable as human, and can in some instances survive outside the mother - it is legal to destroy it for “socioeconomic reasons”, which l’m sure you’d agree is a very vague term.

My question: What do you call this?:

24 week foetus

maximus otter

 

[AnonyJ]

I feel Britain would be on its way to proto- 'police state' if it didn't have fairly liberal pregnancy termination rules, balanced out and changed as & when medical advances suggest.

I might not agree with the procedure and the reasons for it but not allowing some autonomy in reproductive rights in either direction leads to situations of state-sponsored serial pregnancy (eg Romania in the Ceacescu era) and state-enfored abortions (China).

 

[Cochise]

I feel Britain would be on its way to proto- 'police state' if it didn't have fairly liberal pregnancy termination rules, balanced out and changed as & when medical advances suggest.

I might not agree with the procedure and the reasons for it but not allowing some autonomy in reproductive rights in either direction leads to situations of state-sponsored serial pregnancy (eg Romania in the Ceacescu era) and state-enfored abortions (China).

As long as the advances in medical science are recognised and acted on. And that the possible risks of both courses of action are clearly understood.

I speak from experience having no particular axe to grind before discovering the permanent mental damage my wife had suffered as a result of being 'persuaded' into an abortion by a previous boyfriend. All circumstances considered it was probably the right thing to do but she never got over the guilt.

Whether that had anything to do with us being unable to conceive I have no idea, I had a child from a previous marriage so there was no obvious reason why we should have been unable to do so.

 

[Coal]

All circumstances considered it was probably the right thing to do but she never got over the guilt.

This issue is not often overtly discussed, perhaps it should be.

 

[ramonmercado]

As long as the advances in medical science are recognised and acted on. And that the possible risks of both courses of action are clearly understood.

I speak from experience having no particular axe to grind before discovering the permanent mental damage my wife had suffered as a result of being 'persuaded' into an abortion by a previous boyfriend. All circumstances considered it was probably the right thing to do but she never got over the guilt.

Whether that had anything to do with us being unable to conceive I have no idea, I had a child from a previous marriage so there was no obvious reason why we should have been unable to do so.

It's so sad that your wife suffered from being forced into an abortion, it obviously wasn't her choice.

But where women do have a choice they are much less likely to regret it if they do have an abortion.

I know that you are genuine and have no axe to grind but anti-abortion groups pretend that most women who choose abortion, suffer from regret and guilt.

Abortion: 95% of women do not regret procedure
Published Tuesday 14 July 2015
By David McNamee
"Postabortion trauma syndrome" is described by anti-abortion campaigners as a common mental health problem experienced by women who choose to terminate their pregnancies. However, the results of a new study published in PLOS ONE suggest there is no evidence for this syndrome. In the study, 95% of women who had abortions said that it had been the right decision for them.

Among women who had abortions, relief outweighed any negative emotions, even after 3 years.
Image credit: ANSIRH

The results of the new study are part of the large, ongoing Turnaway study, conducted by a research group and think tank at the University of California, San Francisco, known as Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH).

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/296756.php

 

[Coal]

It's so sad that your wife suffered from being forced into an abortion, it obviously wasn't her choice.

But where women do have a choice they are much less likely to regret it if they do have an abortion.

I know that you are genuine and have no axe to grind but anti-abortion groups pretend that most women who choose abortion, suffer from regret and guilt.

Abortion: 95% of women do not regret procedure
Published Tuesday 14 July 2015
By David McNamee
"Postabortion trauma syndrome" is described by anti-abortion campaigners as a common mental health problem experienced by women who choose to terminate their pregnancies. However, the results of a new study published in PLOS ONE suggest there is no evidence for this syndrome. In the study, 95% of women who had abortions said that it had been the right decision for them.

Among women who had abortions, relief outweighed any negative emotions, even after 3 years.
Image credit: ANSIRH

The results of the new study are part of the large, ongoing Turnaway study, conducted by a research group and think tank at the University of California, San Francisco, known as Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH).

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/296756.php

Interesting, thank you.

 

[Floyd]

Ok, I wasn't going to use this. But I feel it may bring it home to those who use your above arguments.

A few years ago, in the early evening, there was a knock on the door. And it was the police.
'Do you own a Citroen XX XX XXX ?

Yes, I do.

Do you know where it is at the moment ?

Yes, it's outside my gate; let's go look'

And, of course, it wasn't there.

The police had been driving through our estate and recognised a local scumbag sat in a car (mine) and they arrested him as he tried to escape. He threw away the keys as he ran.

Now, what had happened is that this scumbag had walked down the path to my house, opened the door and taken two coats from a rack in the hallway. And in one of the pockets were my car keys. So he took the car.

At the time there was a group of relations in various parts of the house. I was watching tv in a room with a glass door that the person had passed to get to the coats. Never saw anything.

I never got the keys back and as the house keys were on the same bunch I had to do a frantic lock change to protect the home. Also had to change the padlocks on my sheds, and the steering and door locks on the car.

The police recovered the coats from a co-thief of this scumbag. but I couldn't have them back just yet as they were wanted for evidence. And as I was going on holiday the following week I had to buy a new coat.

This person was a very well known criminal. and had been up before the beak on a few occasions. But never locked up.

So, what justice was heaped on his head ? Remember, habitual thug and criminal, caught by the police in a stolen car, sat in the driver seat with the keys from a stolen coat obtained by illegal entry to a house.

He got nothing.

I got a letter from the CPS saying that he wasn't going to be prosecuted. And that they couldn't reveal his name as he was under age. That is bollocks, he was eighteen at the time. And his name had already been posted in the local paper.

And there was a sequel.

A few month later this person got into an argument with someone and, using a piece of timber, smashed this person up so badly that he had to be formally identified by his teeth.

This time he was sent down.

Proper justice would have seen him taken down into the cellar and strangled before his vile corpus was thrown into a furnace.

And these people breed; man do they breed. We have whole estates that are crawling with similar people who the law know it is wasting it's time rounding up as the judiciary will probably let them go. Free to wander off smirking into the sunset, already planning their next crime.

INT21

I sympathize with you. As you say, after such an experience it then puts you on edge for probably the rest of your life. Certainly while you live in the same place/area at least. I also have had to put up with a low-life. Just one on/in your street/neighbourhood is all that's needed to ruin decent people's lives. - One does have to wonder about the justice system in Britain; There was a horrific murder in Worcester in 1973. The guy David McGreavy, killed three children- 8 months, 2 years and four years old. Then after attacking them with a pickaxe, he impaled them on the iron railings in the garden of the house. In 2006 the Sun newspaper published a photo of him walking around Liverpool (on his own) on day release from an open prison. There was (naturally) public uproar about this so they moved him back to a 'proper' prison. However, in December 2018 he was 'cleared for release' and as far as I'm aware is now living as free as you or I am. (Probably even more free as no doubt he'll be on some kind of benefits and won't have to work). The Mother of the three children is still alive- imagine how she feels.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't want to wade too far into the abortion debate, but would say that I know women for whom their abortion was absolutely the right decision, but still felt a great deal of remorse, guilt, and suffered a significant period of depression after the fact.

I say this not to present it as an argument against abortion, but as an argument against many anti-abortion types who seem to think that it's a decision made frivolously, that abortion is just being used as a type of birth control. No one is pro abortion, no one's out there having them just because they can, it is never a decision taken likely, but it's a choice everyone should have the right to make.

Ultimately, making abortions illegal doesn't make abortions stop happening, it just means the abortions that do happen aren't safe or regulated, and that's by far the worse option.

 

[Lizard King]

I think the Police are so stretched with so little resources {certainly in a lot of areas, particularly rural}, for Britain to be a Police state.

 

[LordRsmacker]

My question: What do you call this?:

William Hague.

 

[Shady]

A biological entity

 

[maximus otter]

A biological entity

Again, casuistry.

maximus otter

 

[Cochise]

Yes, there are exceptions and this is usually to save a mother's life - is this wrong?

Well, taken to the extreme no woman should ever get pregnant because it might kill them. If it is being done after say 20 weeks for genuine health reasons I'm fine with that, but as Maximus was saying, in the UK the law as at stands at minimum provides a loophole for a late term abortion to be carried out when the situation is not life threatening.

 

[Cochise]

It's so sad that your wife suffered from being forced into an abortion, it obviously wasn't her choice.

But where women do have a choice they are much less likely to regret it if they do have an abortion.

I know that you are genuine and have no axe to grind but anti-abortion groups pretend that most women who choose abortion, suffer from regret and guilt.

Abortion: 95% of women do not regret procedure
Published Tuesday 14 July 2015
By David McNamee
"Postabortion trauma syndrome" is described by anti-abortion campaigners as a common mental health problem experienced by women who choose to terminate their pregnancies. However, the results of a new study published in PLOS ONE suggest there is no evidence for this syndrome. In the study, 95% of women who had abortions said that it had been the right decision for them.

Among women who had abortions, relief outweighed any negative emotions, even after 3 years.
Image credit: ANSIRH

The results of the new study are part of the large, ongoing Turnaway study, conducted by a research group and think tank at the University of California, San Francisco, known as Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH).

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/296756.php

Entirely fair - my wife was one of the 5% and the fact that she felt she was talked in to an abortion by a partner who turned out to be physically abusive is probably as much to blame as the abortion itself.

Nevertheless, one is advised of possible side effects of treatment when the risk is much less than 1 in 20. All I'm saying is that the debate over abortion should not prevent those considering an abortion from being given the full facts, both positive and negative.

 

[Shady]

In the case of rape, if the woman wants an abortion she should get it, of that, I agree with it 100%

 

[Yithian]

In the case of rape, if the woman wants an abortion she should get it, of that, I agree with it 100%

Yes and no.

I, too, agree that she should be permitted to abort the pregnancy, but I don't think the procedure should be permitted at a later than usual stage.

The vital question is where to draw the line.

I have a long post on the subject of abortion gestating, but I'm going to wait until I have my thoughts completely clear.

 

[Shady]

Well, I expect if she has been raped then she will have kept an eye on the fact that she may be pregnant and deal with it as soon as she can

 

[Frideswide]

Rohypnol...

 

[Shady]

No thanks, i'd sooner have tea :O

 

[Mikefule]

The particular difficulty with the abortion debate is that the two opposing sides are not for and against the same thing.

Anti abortion lobby campaigners against abortion. They consider it to be always the worst option. They choose to prioritise the sanctity of the life of the unborn child over all other considerations. Like all "absolute" positions (including the one I'm expressing about absolutist positions) it has inherent inconsistencies the deeper you look into it. Nevertheless, being anti abortion is a valid and honourable position — as long as you campaign for your beliefs in a legal, non violent and non-threatening way.

The opposite side is not pro-abortion. No one thinks that abortion is a good thing. So we have a dispute that could be characterised as Against X -v- Not pro X. There is bound to be misunderstanding when the subject is so emotive, and the two supposedly opposiing positions are not directly opposed.

The "pro" side is "pro choice". They do not argue that abortion is inherently a good thing to be encouraged, but only that it should be an available option, to be balanced against other conflicting priorities, such as the woman's right to choose, or the health consequences for the mother, or the likely quality of life of the child.

Even these three examples I have given are radically different, and someone who agrees with one or even two of them may not agree with the other(s). For example:

The mother's right to choose. Some people might argue that there are other ways that a woman can avoid pregnancy, and that her "lifestyle preference" does not outweigh the "rights" of the unborn child. I do not believe that (m)any women use abortion frivolously as a back up means of contraception. My personal view is that this is one of those cases where the genuine and sincere diversity of moral views should be recognised, and that one group should not be constrained by the opinions of the other group.

Health consequences for the mother might range from fairly mild through to life changing or even potentially lethal. There is a continuum, and my view is that somewhere along this continuum there comes a point where the rights of the living person outweigh the rights of the potential but as yet unborn person. Rights are given by society, not inherent.

The quality of life of the child is a very difficult one. There are countless of examples of people born with tremendous disabilities, or who have suffered disability later in life, who have been happy and productive members of society. The desire to abort a child because it may be unhealthy or unhappy is questionable. It has a slight tinge of eugenics to it, and I suspect that at least in some cases, it is a fig leaf for the parents' preference not to have a disabled child. Thankfully, I've never been in this position, and I do not feel qualified to judge.

Getting back to the subject line of the thread: "Britain: police state?" the fact that all sides feel able to express their opinions and arguments freely in a forum like this on such a controversial and divisive subject is evidence that Britain is not a police state. It is imperfect, but we have tremendous freedoms.