Dangerous Dogs

[GNC]

You might have heard of a dangerous dog on the loose this morning, on Bodmin moor, well, it's been found:
News story

Sounded like the start of a thriller, or an update of Hound of the Baskervilles. A real life Black Shuck (OK, wrong part of the country)? Anyway, its owner got the beast. It does beg the question, if it's that dangerous, what was it doing out in public?

 

[Fluttermoth]

I know that area really well and while a lot of the moorland around there is public, hardly anyone goes there at this time of year; it's a really popular place to walk dogs away from anything apart from a few sheep or ponies, and it did get lose, it hadn't been let off, perhaps it's a nervous dog and got frightened by something and took off (there is an army firing range only a couple of miles away).

I'm glad they got it back, poor thing.

 

[Mouldy13]

Escaped dogs attack pensioner in Torpoint and kill his small dog
By C_Becquart | Posted: February 10, 2017

A dog was killed and its elderly owner injured after two other dogs reportedly escaped in Torpoint and attacked them.
Torpoint police said yesterday that an incident involving two dogs took place in the morning. Officers confirmed on Facebook that they dealt with two dogs that were "roaming the town" and said both dogs are back with their owner.

On Thursday morning, between 9am and 11am, the two American bulldogs ran loose and hospitalised a man reportedly recovering from a heart bypass – killing his own dog in the process.
A spokesman from Liskeard police said: "Both dogs escaped from a premises on Albion Road in Torpoint causing fatal injuries to a dog. Its owner sustained injuries to both hands."

After the incident Torpoint police posted a statement on its Facebook page to reassure residents about the attack, but it failed to address concerns of locals.
A Facebook user wrote: "So lets get this right..... The dogs which attacked and killed a little dog being walked (on a lead) by a responsible elderly gentleman recovering from a heart attack who was also attacked in the incident, have been returned to their irresponsible owner...... ? "

A Torpoint woman said her father is the man mentioned in the comments and that he is currently in hospital.
She wrote: "Dad is OK, more devastated about his dog than concerned about his own injuries. His dog was his life and really helped to get him outdoors after his heart bypass, not sure how he'll cope without him. He was powerless to do anything to save him."

In a new statement by the community's policing team, officers have moved to reassure residents the investigation is ongoing.
PC Wooldridge, the officer for the area, said she understood people's concerns as it was not the first time incidents involving those dogs had taken place.
She wrote: "I can clarify with you that the dogs were checked out yesterday and I can confirm these dogs are NOT a dangerous breed under the dangerous dog act 1991. Our enquires are still on going with the matter."

On their Facebook page, police insisted later that, although the incident is traumatic, every person involved should be respected.
They wrote: "Followers and friends,
"We have seen your comments. Sadly, some have not been helpful and some have clearly crossed the mark.
All of us involved in this incident have dogs. This clearly has been a traumatic time for all. Our thoughts are with those all affected.
"We constantly work with other agencies and are fully aware of the Dogs Act. Veiled threats, talk of vigilante acts and name shaming do not make our investigation any easier. Please respect all the persons involved.
"The dogs have been taken away, back to the breeders and will not be in Torpoint again. A lot has gone on behind the scenes and our investigation continues.

"This Facebook page was set up to be used and has been used to great effect in the past as a tool to update, inform and reassure members of this community. It will continue.
"Mr Julian Morris the Sector Inspector is fully aware and has given me permission to delete/hide any comments deemed inappropriate on this page. I am particularly upset when comments become critical about my colleagues. I have all the comments recorded.
"We work together as best we can, you are part of this community. We often rely upon and need your help. Constructive criticism is welcome and we are always working at improving our service to the public.

"The earlier feeds will now be closed for further comments. If you have any concerns please contact us on 101.
"Thank you for reading this, your support and understanding is appreciated."

The Liskeard officer stressed that the investigation into the incident is ongoing.
He said: "Both dogs have been seen by a police dog handler. We can't say too much at the moment.
"People that use Facebook need to know they cannot comment whatever they want on the social network, especially as it is quite an emotive story."

http://www.cornwalllive.com/escaped...is-small-dog/story-30126653-detail/story.html

Seems that this was not the police's finest moment...

"so watch your step" seems to be the sub text here

 

[catseye]

In some ways no dogs are dangerous, and in other ways, all dogs are.

There's no such thing as a 'dangerous dog' really, if a dog has proved itself to be a danger then it will usually be put down. But then any dog getting loose and running wild can be dangerous, if it's scared or a chaser it will be dangerous to anyone trying to catch it or to other livestock.

Nobody would think my dog is 'dangerous'. But she WILL bite and she WILL chase, and I can't have her off lead anywhere near other dogs or livestock.

 

[escargot]

A dog that killed a smaller dog and attacked a woman and teenage boy was shot dead by police.

Crewe dog attack: Woman and teenage boy injured

Officers were called to reports a bull-mastiff type breed of dog had attacked a woman and a small dog in Richmond Road, Crewe.

"Police swiftly attended the scene and found that the woman and a teenage boy had sustained non life-threatening injuries," Cheshire Constabulary said.

The force said the dog posed an "immediate risk" to the public and armed police shot the animal dead.

 

[catseye]

A dog that killed a smaller dog and attacked a woman and teenage boy was shot dead by police.

Crewe dog attack: Woman and teenage boy injured

This often happens with 'fighty' breeds. They go after a smaller dog and the owner picks it up to save it, and then gets attacked in their turn. I absolutely don't know what I'd do if a big dog went for my smaller one, and have the awful feeling that my instinct would be to pick her up to try to save her, when I'd be far better off leaving her to fight it out for herself (she is, also, a 'fighty' dog).

 

[Cochise]

This often happens with 'fighty' breeds. They go after a smaller dog and the owner picks it up to save it, and then gets attacked in their turn. I absolutely don't know what I'd do if a big dog went for my smaller one, and have the awful feeling that my instinct would be to pick her up to try to save her, when I'd be far better off leaving her to fight it out for herself (she is, also, a 'fighty' dog).

Also most (stress, most) dogs won't kill a dog they are fighting. They just want it to submit.

The owner getting involved can as you say make it worse, unless they know exactly what to do. I'm told whacking the attacking dog on the nose is a good move, but I've never had to try it. It sounds to me a bit like the classic cure for seasickness. (Go sit under a tree).

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

Also most (stress, most) dogs won't kill a dog they are fighting. They just want it to submit.

The owner getting involved can as you say make it worse, unless they know exactly what to do. I'm told whacking the attacking dog on the nose is a good move, but I've never had to try it. It sounds to me a bit like the classic cure for seasickness. (Go sit under a tree).

I agree that most dogs won't fight to the kill. The problem is that, with any individual dog, a person doesn't know when it will fight to the death until the other dog is dead. I personally would never interfere with a dog fight, as I don't want to get bitten.

I live in a retirement community where many people have dogs. Some have small, untrained, aggressive "furbabies." The furbabies are usually not leashed and will go after anyone walking on the sidewalk - teeth bared, growling, hackles up, circling behind to get a better way to bite you. The owners usually told me "Don't worry it won't bite" and would not physically get control of their dog. These same owners now see me coming and scamper to get their dogs because I told them I will defend myself and if that hurts or kills their dog, I don't care (this is after the 2nd or 3rd offense). The worst offenders are the small dogs: chihuahuas, pugs, miniature poodles, etc. The vast majority of dogs here are leashed and not aggressive, but the exceptions are frequent enough to make me rethink old people and dogs.

I always have had doberman pinschers, worked with them every day of their lives for obedience and nonreactivity, and am just astonished at the lack of physical control and poor training with all these furbaby dogs. When I meet someone on the sidewalk with a leashed, nonaggressive (medium sized) dog, I thank them for not having a chihuahua. This always gets a laugh and a rueful conversation about small dogs.

 

[Fluttermoth]

Such a shame, chihuahuas, poodles, and my favourite small dog breed, papillions, are normally very intelligent and easily trainable; they could be of real use to an elderly person, as well as a comfort and companion, wasted opportunity in many cases

 

[catseye]

I agree that most dogs won't fight to the kill. The problem is that, with any individual dog, a person doesn't know when it will fight to the death until the other dog is dead. I personally would never interfere with a dog fight, as I don't want to get bitten.

I live in a retirement community where many people have dogs. Some have small, untrained, aggressive "furbabies." The furbabies are usually not leashed and will go after anyone walking on the sidewalk - teeth bared, growling, hackles up, circling behind to get a better way to bite you. The owners usually told me "Don't worry it won't bite" and would not physically get control of their dog. These same owners now see me coming and scamper to get their dogs because I told them I will defend myself and if that hurts or kills their dog, I don't care (this is after the 2nd or 3rd offense). The worst offenders are the small dogs: chihuahuas, pugs, miniature poodles, etc. The vast majority of dogs here are leashed and not aggressive, but the exceptions are frequent enough to make me rethink old people and dogs.

I always have had doberman pinschers, worked with them every day of their lives for obedience and nonreactivity, and am just astonished at the lack of physical control and poor training with all these furbaby dogs. When I meet someone on the sidewalk with a leashed, nonaggressive (medium sized) dog, I thank them for not having a chihuahua. This always gets a laugh and a rueful conversation about small dogs.

These dogs, owned by older people, are usually woefully under exercised. People think that, just because a dog is a small breed, it will make do with being indoors all day with one slow potter around the neighbourhood being enough exercise. These dogs need to get out more and the owners are often just not up to doing the distances that their dog needs.

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

Such a shame, chihuahuas, poodles, and my favourite small dog breed, papillions, are normally very intelligent and easily trainable; they could be of real use to an elderly person, as well as a comfort and companion, wasted opportunity in many cases

Yes, I agree. In the US, many elderly people live in their own homes in retirement communities. I live in one with 40,000 residents. This has been an eye-opener for me. Many people insist on living alone long past the time when they can do so safely, from cognitive or physical decline. These are the neighbors who most frequently have the untrained dogs. All this has made me rethink my future plans.

Back to dangerous dogs: Here in the US, many breed-specific rescues exist to coordinate rehoming dogs. I think a serious problem exists when these rescues operate under the assumption that no dog is dangerous and all can be retrained. This assumption has been disproved many times by veterinarians, dog trainers, etc. The new owners are usually ill-equipped to retrain an aggressive dog. When the aggressive dog weighs more than 40-50 pounds, this is a tragedy in the making. I most often read about these tragedies with the "bully-breeds." (Yes, I know that many people think that bully-breeds are a myth; they know of a personal example of a nanny dog; etc. In my country, the statistics do not support this belief.) I can think of no socially acceptable solution, since I think that some dogs are proven dangerous by their behavior, they may not be rehabilitatable, and so they should be euthanized.

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

These dogs, owned by older people, are usually woefully under exercised. People think that, just because a dog is a small breed, it will make do with being indoors all day with one slow potter around the neighbourhood being enough exercise. These dogs need to get out more and the owners are often just not up to doing the distances that their dog needs.

Yes! I agree completely. I have visited neighbors in their homes, where the dogs were restless and whined, nonstop. All under-exercised. My dear 90 year old neighbor was very badly bitten by her chihuahua, with longterm loss of use of two fingers. Her response to this was to take the dog to bed with her, so it would feel secure and not want to bite her! It bit her again, and again. She thought I was very heartless when I urged her to not allow her dog on the furniture, make it work for its food, put the dog in a crate when it misbehaved, etc. Eventually the dog attacked her very badly, and died of a seizure during the attack.

This thread on dangerous dogs really strikes home with me because I live in a retirement community where I have to be vigilant about dogs every time I take a walk.

Catseye, what is community dog life like in the UK?

 

[Mungoman]

Yes, I agree. In the US, many elderly people live in their own homes in retirement communities. I live in one with 40,000 residents. This has been an eye-opener for me. Many people insist on living alone long past the time when they can do so safely, from cognitive or physical decline. These are the neighbors who most frequently have the untrained dogs. All this has made me rethink my future plans.

Back to dangerous dogs: Here in the US, many breed-specific rescues exist to coordinate rehoming dogs. I think a serious problem exists when these rescues operate under the assumption that no dog is dangerous and all can be retrained. This assumption has been disproved many times by veterinarians, dog trainers, etc. The new owners are usually ill-equipped to retrain an aggressive dog. When the aggressive dog weighs more than 40-50 pounds, this is a tragedy in the making. I most often read about these tragedies with the "bully-breeds." (Yes, I know that many people think that bully-breeds are a myth; they know of a personal example of a nanny dog; etc. In my country, the statistics do not support this belief.) I can think of no socially acceptable solution, since I think that some dogs are proven dangerous by their behavior, they may not be rehabilitatable, and so they should be euthanized.

G'day E.A.,

I have a dog that has been bred deliberately for Hunting, and weighs over 50 Kilo's, (110 lbs), who has a Shitzu/maltese cross mate, that once was the town stray. he was driven from the nearest town (50 K's away), and dumped here because the new boyfriend didn't like small dogs.

The smaller dog was treated abominably, by pretty much all and sundry until he came to live with us. Mick is a toey little bugger and would like nothing better than to fight another dog through a fence.

Meanwhile, Bella, the 'Piggin' Dawg' (pigging dog) as her mixed breed is known as, would have to be the loveliest natured dog around.

Both dogs go for walks of between 3 and 4 kilometres daily, and have the opportunity to chase the many Hares we have in our neighbourhood. These, I don't mind, because the Hares wait for the dogs, and 'Stott' (Bounce) on the spot until the dogs see them - then, those Hares hit Mach 1, off into the paddocks and make the dogs look silly.

The dogs leave the Roos well alone. Period.

When Mick first started to live here, I needed to warn people that He had small dog syndrome if they attempted to come through the gate. The other way to get him used to domesticity was to walk both dogs at Dawn when there aren't people about.

In Summer, doing anything here before dawn is smart.

Mick, after 2 years, is coming along nicely with other people we meet as we walk - just don't come through the gate unannounced. That's his job, and he gets fed for doing it.

As for Bella - everybody knows Bella, and they don't mind Her at all. Both dogs walk off the leash, and respond to simple commands. Walk. Come. Here Now, (stop immediately), and Come By (leave what your doing and walk away).

I agree that half the problem with small dogs is a lack of training, and a lack of exercise...there is one other
factor, and that is the Trickywoo syndrome (google is your friend), which just confuses an animal no end.

I would like to think that with the right attitude by the owner, an animal can be taught to be a good companion.

 

[Fluttermoth]

.. Trickywoo syndrome (google is your friend), which just confuses an animal no end.

I would like to think that with the right attitude by the owner, an animal can be taught to be a good companion.

Oh, I know what you mean! One of my pet hates is people who won't treat their animals like the animals they are, and you can't train a dog without clear, simple commands like yours!

I used to have a friend (well, the partner of a friend, soo.. :/) who had a lovely, good natured dobermann (thank god he was a sweetheart) and she could NOT stop having a conversation with him, "Romeo, please go and lie down, you're bothering us, there's a good boy, you'll get a walk and a treat later if you're good now"

OMG, your dog doesn't speak English! I swear all the dog heard was "NAME blah, blah, blah, PRAISE, blah blah blah WALK blah blah blah" No wonder the poor thing never did as he was told, he had no clue what she was asking him to do

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

G'day E.A.,

I have a dog that has been bred deliberately for Hunting, and weighs over 50 Kilo's, (110 lbs), who has a Shitzu/maltese cross mate, that once was the town stray. he was driven from the nearest town (50 K's away), and dumped here because the new boyfriend didn't like small dogs.

The smaller dog was treated abominably, by pretty much all and sundry until he came to live with us. Mick is a toey little bugger and would like nothing better than to fight another dog through a fence.

Meanwhile, Bella, the 'Piggin' Dawg' (pigging dog) as her mixed breed is known as, would have to be the loveliest natured dog around.

Both dogs go for walks of between 3 and 4 kilometres daily, and have the opportunity to chase the many Hares we have in our neighbourhood. These, I don't mind, because the Hares wait for the dogs, and 'Stott' (Bounce) on the spot until the dogs see them - then, those Hares hit Mach 1, off into the paddocks and make the dogs look silly.

The dogs leave the Roos well alone. Period.

When Mick first started to live here, I needed to warn people that He had small dog syndrome if they attempted to come through the gate. The other way to get him used to domesticity was to walk both dogs at Dawn when there aren't people about.

In Summer, doing anything here before dawn is smart.

Mick, after 2 years, is coming along nicely with other people we meet as we walk - just don't come through the gate unannounced. That's his job, and he gets fed for doing it.

As for Bella - everybody knows Bella, and they don't mind Her at all. Both dogs walk off the leash, and respond to simple commands. Walk. Come. Here Now, (stop immediately), and Come By (leave what your doing and walk away).

I agree that half the problem with small dogs is a lack of training, and a lack of exercise...there is one other
factor, and that is the Trickywoo syndrome (google is your friend), which just confuses an animal no end.

I would like to think that with the right attitude by the owner, an animal can be taught to be a good companion.

Your dogs sound well-behaved and fun. They are lucky to have you. My dogs all got at least 10 miles/day off-leash. They could get cranky if they were under-exercized.

I would say that 99.99% of all dogs can be trained or rehabilitated. However, if the dog is capable of killing or maiming a person, then it is difficult to assess the types and duration of training which is necessary for rehabilitation of a dog which has a long history of biting different persons. In the US, dangerous dogs and the types of people who are attracted to owning and breeding them are a real problem. To say that it is not the dog's fault does not address the risk.

All the millions of personal stories such as you gave - and remember that I prefer doberman pischers, satan incarnate of the dog world - do not detract from the considered opinion from some dog trainers, vets, and dog genetists, that some dogs are dangerous and cannot be rehabilitated. Some have genetic instabilities which are breed-specific, some are just broken from mistreatment or just the idiot owners who think they can persuade the dog to behave, and some just snap at a person because they are in physical pain from a variety of old age conditions.

If you think that all dogs can be rehabilitated under the correct circumstances and with enough time, I can respect that while disagreeing. There is a world of difference between thinking all dogs can be rehabbed, and thinking that most dogs can.

ps - feral pigs are hunted here with dogs which hold the pig by the ears, until the owner comes to stab the pig. No guns used which is a point of pride. How is pig hunting done where you live?

 

[catseye]

Yes! I agree completely. I have visited neighbors in their homes, where the dogs were restless and whined, nonstop. All under-exercised. My dear 90 year old neighbor was very badly bitten by her chihuahua, with longterm loss of use of two fingers. Her response to this was to take the dog to bed with her, so it would feel secure and not want to bite her! It bit her again, and again. She thought I was very heartless when I urged her to not allow her dog on the furniture, make it work for its food, put the dog in a crate when it misbehaved, etc. Eventually the dog attacked her very badly, and died of a seizure during the attack.

This thread on dangerous dogs really strikes home with me because I live in a retirement community where I have to be vigilant about dogs every time I take a walk.

Catseye, what is community dog life like in the UK?

I'm afraid I can't speak to community dog life here, Amazed, as I am lucky enough to live out in a village. My terrier gets a six mile plus run (she runs with me on the lead) plus one hour off lead, and then around five shorter walks - dog ownership is a committment of time, not just of energy and love! But I still see far far too many dogs that really aren't given the sheer amount of walking they need. So many people see me and say (in a jocular fashion) 'you off out with that dog again, then?' Well, yes, she's a working breed kept as a pet, so the least I can do is keep her brain and body engaged as frequently as possible!

What I mainly hate to see is working dogs kept in flats or in cities where they really don't have the opportunity to be engaged. Border collies are not really city dogs, for example, unless you are around with them all day to keep their brains engaged and take them out frequently. People massively underestimate the amount of exercise a dog needs. And elderly people are the worst - there are plenty of older dogs in rescue places that would LOVE an elderly owner who just wants to potter. What do the elderly do? Get a puppy...,

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

The evidence for contributing factors in dog aggression, including genetics for specific breeds and sizes. Arf! Arf! Grrr....

Its Official: Small Dogs Are Dicks:
Aggressive behaviour is affected by demographic, environmental and behavioural factors in purebred dogs | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

The easiest to read:
Dog Behavior Problems Aggression Diagnosis And Overview | VCA Animal Hospitals (vcahospitals.com)
Genetics & Neurochemistry of Aggression: Normal and Abnormal - WSAVA 2003 Congress - VIN

You will need a little coffee to read these:
It’s Not “All In How You Raise Them”: The Role Of Genetics In Behavior – Dr. Jen's Dog Blog (drjensdogblog.com)
Dog Aggression Toward Owner Can Be Due to Genetic Predisposition (dvm360.com)
Genetic testing of dogs predicts problem behaviors in clinical and nonclinical samples | bioRxiv

You will need several cups of coffee to read these:
Genetic mapping of canine fear and aggression | BMC Genomics | Full Text (biomedcentral.com)
Understanding the heritability of behavior in dogs - The Institute of Canine Biology

 

[Frideswide]

what is community dog life like in the UK?

@Endlessly Amazed ? what is community dog life?

 

[brownmane]

I had a chihuahua for 15 years. Yes she had an attitude and I was firm with her. She was not yappy and I think it had to do that when she was a puppy, my husband (who was not able to work) was home with her and he had a kangaroo hoodie (a pullover jacket with large pocket on front) which she loved to stay in. So maybe she had less anxiety.

My vet and I would joke that she (dog) would always have to have the last word. And she did have small dog syndrome. When she went for walks (leashed of course), she would walk by smaller dogs without a glance; however, big dogs, she'd bark and carry on as if she were the bigger dog. Once I was walking her and a guy was coming toward us with an unleashed collie (I think). I simply pulled up my dog on her harness and had her in my arms. The guy commented "Oh, my dog doesn't bite". I replied "Mine does".

Not that she actually ever bit anyone, but I never put it past her. She would be nervous around anything towering over her.

She was a good dog. I'm not a dog person and she was the only one I had. She got on well with my cats.

 

[Kondoru]

A Guy I knew, nearly seven foot and built to boot, Had, (shall we say) a colourful background...you know...

Someone once confided in me `Breeds Chihuahuas you know` in the manner they were speaking about his colourful background.

Why am I not surprised?

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

@Endlessly Amazed? what is community dog life?

A stable community of people and the dogs some have. Dog owners get together with their dogs, sometimes for walks on sidewalks, or the dog park. Also, the people in the community who do not have dogs but must coexist with the dogs and dog owners.

Where I live, some of the dog owners get together to walk their human-aggressive small dogs in groups on long retractable leads. These dogs sometimes act like a pack and I am wary of them. The 100% older women who get together in threes or fours for the walk act like a pack as well.

I would be interested in other's take on the research articles I linked.

 

[Mungoman]

Your dogs sound well-behaved and fun. They are lucky to have you. My dogs all got at least 10 miles/day off-leash. They could get cranky if they were under-exercized.

I would say that 99.99% of all dogs can be trained or rehabilitated. However, if the dog is capable of killing or maiming a person, then it is difficult to assess the types and duration of training which is necessary for rehabilitation of a dog which has a long history of biting different persons. In the US, dangerous dogs and the types of people who are attracted to owning and breeding them are a real problem. To say that it is not the dog's fault does not address the risk.

All the millions of personal stories such as you gave - and remember that I prefer doberman pischers, satan incarnate of the dog world - do not detract from the considered opinion from some dog trainers, vets, and dog genetists, that some dogs are dangerous and cannot be rehabilitated. Some have genetic instabilities which are breed-specific, some are just broken from mistreatment or just the idiot owners who think they can persuade the dog to behave, and some just snap at a person because they are in physical pain from a variety of old age conditions.

If you think that all dogs can be rehabilitated under the correct circumstances and with enough time, I can respect that while disagreeing. There is a world of difference between thinking all dogs can be rehabbed, and thinking that most dogs can.

ps - feral pigs are hunted here with dogs which hold the pig by the ears, until the owner comes to stab the pig. No guns used which is a point of pride. How is pig hunting done where you live?

G'day E.A.,

I reckon that I've misled you unintentionally. We have dogs here that are slapped around from birth to 'keen' them up by utter fucking dickheads - you can usually see them in the beer garden with their mates...and their dogs. The owners occasionally paying them attention by slapping them around - Prime examples of why terminations should be freely available. (Harsh, I know.)

When a child is born to the Partner of the Twat, the dog does exactly the same back. The dog thinks that this behaviour is a normal activity, resulting in death or fearsome injuries to the Child. I don't think under the circumstances that this dog could be retrained into a normally domesticated pet

We also have city people who egotrip on owning dogs like Bella, but where their dogs have no outlet at all for the inherent energy that all young dogs have, and live in backyards that are minuscule. These dogs get out and monster any dog they see...and usually the human that tries to save them.

I was fortunate with Mick because He'd been adrift for only six months or so, and was already mature enough to have received some semblance of appropriate interaction between canine and human...and because his main focus was Bella, He allowed me to come close. A good start. The rest is History.

And Pigging? Exactly the same technique AE, with chest and neckplates, and with a tracking collar.


And no, we don't go piggun'...

Here's the main culprits relaxing after a walk.

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

G'day E.A.,

I reckon that I've misled you unintentionally. We have dogs here that are slapped around from birth to 'keen' them up by utter fucking dickheads - you can usually see them in the beer garden with their mates...and their dogs. The owners occasionally paying them attention by slapping them around - Prime examples of why terminations should be freely available. (Harsh, I know.)

When a child is born to the Partner of the Twat, the dog does exactly the same back. The dog thinks that this behaviour is a normal activity, resulting in death or fearsome injuries to the Child. I don't think under the circumstances that this dog could be retrained into a normally domesticated pet

We also have city people who egotrip on owning dogs like Bella, but where their dogs have no outlet at all for the inherent energy that all young dogs have, and live in backyards that are minuscule. These dogs get out and monster any dog they see...and usually the human that tries to save them.

I was fortunate with Mick because He'd been adrift for only six months or so, and was already mature enough to have received some semblance of appropriate interaction between canine and human...and because his main focus was Bella, He allowed me to come close. A good start. The rest is History.

And Pigging? Exactly the same technique AE, with chest and neckplates, and with a tracking collar.


And no, we don't go piggun'...

Here's the main culprits relaxing after a walk.

That brute on the left is not a dog - it is a HORSE!

It seems our countries have similar problems with similar types of people, and you and I have similar thoughts about the solutions.

Here in the SW of the United States, the vast majority of dogs available from public dog pounds are chihuahuas or bully breeds, reflective of the types of people who do not neuter dogs and breed them for aggression because it is a point of pride.

...My doberman was never trained to be aggressive to either dogs or people, and he actually would not alert bark when somebody approached the property. He would find me, hackles raised, and give a very low growl and then silently guide me to the problem. Twice, he decided to act alone because of the intruder attempting to enter the house. Again, no barks, but he let himself out the front door, knocked the person down, stood with front paws on the man's chest, and then barked. He was not trained for this; I did not dissuade him because his judgement was correct in both cases.

He was an enthusiastic hunter in the wilderness, and more than once drove game animals (elk, deer) to me and then was so puzzled that I did not kill any. How could I have let all that meat get away?!?

 

[Mungoman]

A stable community of people and the dogs some have. Dog owners get together with their dogs, sometimes for walks on sidewalks, or the dog park. Also, the people in the community who do not have dogs but must coexist with the dogs and dog owners.

Where I live, some of the dog owners get together to walk their human-aggressive small dogs in groups on long retractable leads. These dogs sometimes act like a pack and I am wary of them. The 100% older women who get together in threes or fours for the walk act like a pack as well.

I would be interested in other's take on the research articles I linked.

Back again E.A.

Speaking for our neck of the woods, (remote Australia), we don't do the organised thing. I do know that Bella (another Bella) gets walked after 7 in the morning. She's a lovely, good natured Lab cross, and Her and Wor Bella get on well.

There is Margaret and Amy who walk at picanniny dawn...Amy is a small aged cross foxy/chihauhua who loves mick but will bail up Bella no worries..

Then there is Krystal and Ted who walk at Dawn. Ted is another good natured dog with Poodle/ Labrador heritage, and enjoys interactions with both Mick and Bella...and that's the closest to organising that we get - it's more happenstance, and Hail Fellow, Well Met!!

All of these dogs have good dispositions and walk off the leash - they all respond to commands of Come, or Here.

Most Dogs here work (I live in a rural village), and are kept confined - it's only those dogs that are kept as pets that get the walk. We have 'camp dogs', which are usually small dogs of questionable heritage that run around the neighborhood. A stern look and a command of 'GARN GET HOME' usually suffices in these little pooches running back inside their gates.

It isn't that we look down on the need to read peer reviewed papers and books AE, it's just that if you have a dog, you'd better know how to look after it - something we take seriously out here - before you get the animal.

 

[catseye]

That brute on the left is not a dog - it is a HORSE!

It seems our countries have similar problems with similar types of people, and you and I have similar thoughts about the solutions.

Here in the SW of the United States, the vast majority of dogs available from public dog pounds are chihuahuas or bully breeds, reflective of the types of people who do not neuter dogs and breed them for aggression because it is a point of pride.

...My doberman was never trained to be aggressive to either dogs or people, and he actually would not alert bark when somebody approached the property. He would find me, hackles raised, and give a very low growl and then silently guide me to the problem. Twice, he decided to act alone because of the intruder attempting to enter the house. Again, no barks, but he let himself out the front door, knocked the person down, stood with front paws on the man's chest, and then barked. He was not trained for this; I did not dissuade him because his judgement was correct in both cases.

He was an enthusiastic hunter in the wilderness, and more than once drove game animals (elk, deer) to me and then was so puzzled that I did not kill any. How could I have let all that meat get away?!?

To be fair though, your dog could have got himself a very bad reputation if the person attempting to enter the house had been a lost child looking for mum or someone making a delivery and unable to get a response. Dogs judgement only looks good in rettrospect, otherwise it looks like 'dog attacks human, is put down.'

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

To be fair though, your dog could have got himself a very bad reputation if the person attempting to enter the house had been a lost child looking for mum or someone making a delivery and unable to get a response. Dogs judgement only looks good in rettrospect, otherwise it looks like 'dog attacks human, is put down.'

@catseye – these are fair observations. I had thought about these types of observations before I posted, and decided to only add more information if these types of observations were posted, because I did not want to post an obnoxiously long post.

In 11 years, my dog deliberately knocked down and immobilized only 2 people. Both were adult men, strangers, after dark, who were not just on the property, but who had not rung the doorbell. From the lame explanation they gave about what they were doing there, I suspect they were casual opportunist thieves. My dog never did this with anyone else, of the many strangers who were on our property over his lifetime: delivery men, Christian do-gooders, mailmen, children, lost people looking for an address, etc.

For all strangers except those two men, he found me and silently alerted me to the visitor. No barking; no taking matters into his own paws. To verify what he did when we were not home, I arranged multiple friends, with cars my dog did not know, to drive up, leave the car, and knock on the front door. He never barked, never let himself out of the house, only looked out the front window with an unwavering hard stare. I arranged to be in the back seat of some of these cars, and observed. I did this periodically over the years, to assess his behavior.

I trained him to have different responses to various strangers coming up to him in public, including small children. This intense socialization was necessary as I wanted him to be safe, and to pose no - unwarranted – threat to people. I trained that dog almost every day of his life. This is a lot of work. He was of a size to be capable of killing a person. He was not dangerous.

I cannot prove he was safe with strangers to the readers of this, because the criteria of demonstrating safety has not been established.

 

[catseye]

@catseye – these are fair observations. I had thought about these types of observations before I posted, and decided to only add more information if these types of observations were posted, because I did not want to post an obnoxiously long post.

In 11 years, my dog deliberately knocked down and immobilized only 2 people. Both were adult men, strangers, after dark, who were not just on the property, but who had not rung the doorbell. From the lame explanation they gave about what they were doing there, I suspect they were casual opportunist thieves. My dog never did this with anyone else, of the many strangers who were on our property over his lifetime: delivery men, Christian do-gooders, mailmen, children, lost people looking for an address, etc.

For all strangers except those two men, he found me and silently alerted me to the visitor. No barking; no taking matters into his own paws. To verify what he did when we were not home, I arranged multiple friends, with cars my dog did not know, to drive up, leave the car, and knock on the front door. He never barked, never let himself out of the house, only looked out the front window with an unwavering hard stare. I arranged to be in the back seat of some of these cars, and observed. I did this periodically over the years, to assess his behavior.

I trained him to have different responses to various strangers coming up to him in public, including small children. This intense socialization was necessary as I wanted him to be safe, and to pose no - unwarranted – threat to people. I trained that dog almost every day of his life. This is a lot of work. He was of a size to be capable of killing a person. He was not dangerous.

I cannot prove he was safe with strangers to the readers of this, because the criteria of demonstrating safety has not been established.

He sounds utterly wonderful. And I'm sure he was no danger to anyone. I was mostly drawing attention to the fact that most people live in a state of blissful denial of how other people perceive their dogs.

I'm always thanked by walkers who pass me, because I put my dog on a lead as soon as I see them. I always smile beneficently and take the thanks - despite the fact that I'm putting her on a lead because she's a little bugger and would chase them otherwise!

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

@catseye - You are a thoughtful dog owner and I wish you could be cloned. My dog was trained to heel off-lead, and was reliable most of the time. If he saw someone eating, he would try to desert me, and go up to that person, play bowing, wagging, begging for a taste. I could not entirely train him away from this overwhelming temptation.

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

... and almost everyone immediately surrendered their food to the Doberman Pinscher.

 

[brownmane]

... and almost everyone immediately surrendered their food to the Doberman Pinscher.

A high school friend's family had Dobies. They were the best, ie well trained, dogs. She had told me that when I came over to her place to not get out of my car until she or her parents came out with the dogs. I never worried about them.

They also at one time, had a cocker spaniel. He was a nippy and unreliable dog and I never turned my back on him.

One of my uncles had a Rottie. Nicest dog. The my uncle's work area was in the basement of the home with a separate entrance. Anyone who approached the company entrance would wait until someone came outside, as the Rottie did differentiate between the "family" (front door) entrance and the "company" entrance. If you were welcomed in through the front entrance, he was ok with wherever you went; if you did not come through the front entrance, he would watch you and you would stay put in your vehicle.