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Dragons: Evidence They Existed

Are dragons "cryptids"?
Opinions?
Good question, the dragon legends probably have many threads woven into them. The discovery of the bones of dinosaurs and other large pre-historic animals, meetings with huge crocodiles and pythons and maybe some kind of huge monitor lizard, maybe one unknown to science. Some encounters may be paranormal manifestations. The fear of reptiles may have something to do with ancient fears in our sub-conscious. I actually love reptiles.
 
I'll be reviewing this one myself soon. I'm very fond of this book for all it's faults. I think Ted was onto something.

F. W. Holiday's THE DRAGON AND THE DISC​

 
Until you answer the question "Describe a Dragon" you can't even start to ask if they ever existed. Contemporary witnesses required.

St George probably killed a snake, not a dragon.

The modern concept of dragons is pure fiction.
 
The modern concept of dragons is pure fiction.
The idea that they breathe fire, fly and have a high level of sentience is pure fiction.
Crocodiles, huge snakes or large lizards might qualify as 'dragons' if nobody was familiar with such creatures in the area.
 
St George probably killed a snake, not a dragon.

The modern concept of dragons is pure fiction.
But can you really kill a very good story?
That seems to be a nope.

The idea of dragons evolving from fossils is shaky since fossils have a huge variety of shapes and you can't Imagine Dragons (not the band) if you don't have a general concept of dragons to being with.
 
The idea of dragons evolving from fossils is shaky since fossils have a huge variety of shapes and you can't Imagine Dragons if you don't have a general concept of dragons to being with.

Yep: Victorians had complete Iguanodon skeletons, yet decided that they looked like this:

1920px-Mantellodon_in_Crystal_Palace_Park.jpg


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_Dinosaurs

maximus otter
 
Until you answer the question "Describe a Dragon" you can't even start to ask if they ever existed. Contemporary witnesses required.

St George probably killed a snake, not a dragon.

The modern concept of dragons is pure fiction.

As this English saint (actually from Turkey) was known to have served with the Roman legions in North Africa, I reckon the smart money is on him having skewered an oversized Nile crocodile, possibly using a pilum.
 
As this English saint (actually from Turkey) was known to have served with the Roman legions in North Africa, I reckon the smart money is on him having skewered an oversized Nile crocodile, possibly using a pilum.
That's perfectly possible in practical terms, but I don't think the evidence is good that he committed any reptilicide at all. The story seems to have been attributed to other saints before George, and resembles the stories of other pre-Christian heroes. I think it's just one of those classic, enduring tales, that gets recast over time but never completely vanishes.
 
That's perfectly possible in practical terms, but I don't think the evidence is good that he committed any reptilicide at all. The story seems to have been attributed to other saints before George, and resembles the stories of other pre-Christian heroes. I think it's just one of those classic, enduring tales, that gets recast over time but never completely vanishes.
Lest we forget!

dragon.png
 
Yep: Victorians had complete Iguanodon skeletons, yet decided that they looked like this:

1920px-Mantellodon_in_Crystal_Palace_Park.jpg


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Palace_Dinosaurs

maximus otter
I saw those last year. It was a lifelong ambition.

But, yeah, it would be extraordinary if ancient people had found, say, dinosaur skeletons and even identified them as reptilian, let alone dragons. I think you need only look to the number of extraordinary composite and giant monsters in mythology and the clear influence the serpent had on dragon stories to accept humans are perfectly capable of conjuring a creature such as the dragon out of imagination, and developing it into its many forms over time.
 
Until you answer the question "Describe a Dragon" you can't even start to ask if they ever existed. Contemporary witnesses required.

St George probably killed a snake, not a dragon.

The modern concept of dragons is pure fiction.
Could not agree more, old bean.

I think the modern idea of a six-limbed animal that can breathe fire and fly is about as realistic as the current concept of an angel as some kind of personal spirit that comes with its own set of crystals.

[Ducks for cover]
:)
 
Don't know if I have mentioned this before on here, but we have a dragon legend just on the opposite side of the woods where I live, The Dragon of Wantley (Don't think it's providence is as old has some other legends in other parts of the country though.) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_of_Wantley
Wharncliffe Crags... I'm fairly sure I walked past that place when I was a student. Had no idea that there was a dragon legend associated with them.
 
Wharncliffe Crags... I'm fairly sure I walked past that place when I was a student. Had no idea that there was a dragon legend associated with them.
Yup, The Dragon's den (cave) is actually found among the Craggs.
 
1) Until you answer the question "Describe a Dragon" you can't even start to ask if they ever existed. 2) Contemporary witnesses required.

3) St George probably killed a snake, not a dragon.

4) The modern concept of dragons is pure fiction.
(My numbers added to your words.)

At least 4 statements there.

1) Absolutely agreed. As with religion vs atheism, most political debate (elsewhere, not here, obvs), and many Fortean subjects, the common failing is to leap into the yes/no debate without first defining terms.
  • If you define a dragon/god/ghost (etc.) in terms of something that definitely exists then the answer is yes, it exists.
  • If you define it in terms of something that cannot logically exist, then the answer is no it doesn't exist.
  • If you define it in suitable vague terms, you can keep the debate going indefinitely. I can prove "my" dragon exists, because it is a crocodile, and you can prove that "yours" doesn't exist because of the the laws of thermodynamics and aerodynamics. Without defined terms, the discussion is fun but pointless.
2) There are "contemporary witnesses" in the sense that historical personages made reports. We choose to dismiss or selectively interpret/reinterpret their evidence either because it is poor quality evidence, or because we want/don't want to accept it. There is no logical reason why a witness from 1,000 years ago would be less reliable than a witness today. The difficulty is there is no opportunity to challenge the historical witness directly.

3) There's a lot packed up in that. Did St George exist at all? Who was he? What did he actually do? Did he indeed kill anything vaguely resembling a dragon? If so, what? Like Robin Hood, even if there may have been an historical personage, that does not mean that the stories attached to them are true.

4) I'd challenge your use of the singular. I do not think there is a modern concept of dragons. I think there are several modern concepts of dragons. Tolkien's dragon is very different from Anne McCaffrey's dragons. The dragons in How to Train Your Dragon are very different from the one in Room on the Broom. As with modern interpretations of the vampire or werewolf, there are a few commonly agreed characteristics and features, but no single universal concept.

My own view, based on nothing but speculation and plausibility is that historical dragons are generally the product of human imagination, often taking something that is known (snake, crocodile, etc.) increasing it in size, and adding scary or wondrous features (fire breathing, flight, etc.). I think dragons are no more likely to have existed in a literal sense than the Gruffalo or Cerberus.
 
The story of St George fighting the dragon was not tacked on to his life story until several centuries after his death. It is clearly a re-working gf the Greek tale of Perseus fighting the sea monster Cetus to save Andromeda.
Dragon stories probably have multiple threads to them from the discovery of fossil bones to encounters with crocodiles and pythons. I do think there is a paranormal aspect to this as well. There are a number of modern day (20th-21st century) sightings from the UK, the USA, , Iceland, Japan, China and Indonesia. I'm currently looking into a multiple witness sighting in the UK. What was reported does not make any sense as a flesh and blood animal in the traditional sense.
 
The story of St George fighting the dragon was not tacked on to his life story until several centuries after his death. It is clearly a re-working gf the Greek tale of Perseus fighting the sea monster Cetus to save Andromeda.
Hey! That’s just like Jesus’ Miracles and all the previous Messiah legends going back to the God myths of ancient Egypt.

Oops. I think I said too much.
 
Victorians had complete Iguanodon skeletons, yet decided that they looked like this
Did we notice that the dinosaurs are (for the purposes of civic planning permission and listed status for preservation purposes) categorised by the local authority as being houses?

The fear of reptiles may have something to do with ancient fears in our sub-conscious
I find this very persuasive. Instinctive terror.

What was reported does not make any sense as a flesh and blood animal in the traditional sense.
This: where there are strong indications that classic Fortean phenomena (whether presently or previously-reported) is not physical, but present in some semi-tangible shared experience way...is a truly-fascinating aspect. As an over-arching solution-starter that transcends any particular instance (or type-set). Photons not Footprints.

The Palestrina mosaic (c. 100 BC) depicts a "Krokodilapaardis" that somewhat resembles the Crystal Palace didinosaurs
Yes- surely it does. Much more of a relict dinosaur than an anthropocene-era crocodillian.

Does this mosaic represent a true smoking gun, uncontaminated by modern re-interpretation and projection, that gives a possible ceramic snapshot of latter-day true living dinosaurs (as opposed to neo-extinct reptilian megafauna)?
 
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Yes- surely it does. Much more of a relict dinosaur than an anthropocene-era crocodillian.

Does this mosaic represent a true smoking gun, uncontaminated by modern re-interpretation and projection, that gives a possible ceramic snapshot of latter-day true living dinosaurs (as opposed to neo-extinct reptilian megafsuna)?

I did wonder though whether, rather like the medieval and obsolete term "camelopard" that derived from people once believing a giraffe was a combination of camel and leopard, a "crocodilopard" could be a now lost term describing a creature somewhat resembling a crocodile, but with leopard-like patterns? Possibly a large Nile monitor?

monitor3.jpg
 
There is no logical reason why a witness from 1,000 years ago would be less reliable than a witness today. The difficulty is there is no opportunity to challenge the historical witness directly.

this. THIS! THIS! :twothumbs:
I'll go a step further. In the case of sea serpents, there are good reasons to say that a witness from, say, 1,000 years ago might be more reliable. Not more honest, or more dispassionate, but more reliable.

1,000 years ago, a ship might be 15 to 25 metres long, powered by sail, and with a maximum speed in ideal conditions of 6-8 knots. Every member of the crew would be directly involved in in keeping the ship going. The helmsman would be standing on deck directly exposed to the wind and spray. In heavy seas, they would literally be watching and responding to each individual wave. The crew might be rowing, or hauling on lines to control the sails. Space down below would be very limited and often uncomfortable. The result is that at any given time, there would be several experienced crewmen on deck or up aloft, paying direct attention to the water conditions around them.

Navigation was by dead reckoning, direct observation, and experience. Looking for land beyond the horizon? Look at the colour of the water, look at what is floating in the water , look for birds in the sky, look at the cloud formations. The secret was constant observation, based on familiarity with what to look for. A sailor's life depended on every member of the crew knowing the marine environment intimately.

Today, a cargo ship may be 400 metres long and average about 14 or 15 knots. The helmsman is in a covered bridge, and may not have reason to glance out of the window for long periods. Navigation is by satellite, with digital charts on a screen. The other crew members will be on deck only when needed, otherwise they are likely to be working down below, or in their quarters watching TV, reading, etc. There is no need for a typical modern merchant seaman to have any particular knowledge of sea life, cloud formations and so on. Of course, some do, but many or most could equally be working in a factory or office. Even the specialists would know more about technology than traditional seamanship.

So when a sailor from 1,000 years ago saw something unusual, you can be fairly sure that it was genuinely unusual.

But when a modern merchant seaman, or indeed a passenger on a cruise liner, seems something unusual, it may only mean that it was outside their own personal, limited, experience.

I have two small boats:
  • One is an inflatable with an outboard motor, capable of about 17 knots. Skimming across the surface of the water is noisy and exhilarating. Currents and surface conditions present no appreciable obstacle or hazard, within sensible limits.
  • The other is a sailing dinghy designed for cruising, which is capable of 5 knots in ideal conditions. I have to watch the water and wind and make constant adjustments to the sail and to my course. Even a slow river current or a choppy area of the lake needs to be approached with care and "tactics".

I certainly notice a lot more detail in and on the water when I'm sailing than when I'm on the inflatable.

My own sea serpent story: Just once, on the sailing dinghy, I encountered a grass (edit) snake swimming across Rutland Water. I noticed it swimming towards me. It literally collided with the side of the boat then swam away. I would probably not have noticed it if I'd been under power.
 
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There is no logical reason why a witness from 1,000 years ago would be less reliable than a witness today. The difficulty is there is no opportunity to challenge the historical witness directly.

How about failing eyesight and lack of Specsavers glasses?
 
Some encounters may be paranormal manifestations. The fear of reptiles may have something to do with ancient fears in our sub-conscious. I actually love reptiles.

Do you feel that claims of Bigfoot sightings are also more likely to be paranormal manifestations rather than a flesh and blood animal?
 
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