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Keble Bollege Oxford...
Hmm. Yes.
Hmm. Yes.
Monty Python quote by my reckoningbarndad said:What was your last post about, Inverurie?
sjwk said:Monty Python quote by my reckoning
Knights Templar seek papal apology for 700 years of persecution
By Paul Kelbie
29 November 2004
Seven hundred years after they were denounced as heretics and condemned to torture and death, the Knights Templar are calling for a public apology from the Roman Catholic Church.
The secretive organisation which was formed at the time of the Crusades has written to Pope John Paul II requesting that the Vatican officially atone for the persecution of the order.
The formal request for reconciliation to the Vatican has come from an English-based sept and is signed by the "Council of Chaplains, for and on behalf of the acting Grand Master". The letter asks for "an apology from the Vatican for the persecution of our brothers of the Knights Templar and the torture and murder of our leadership, under Pope Clement V during the 14th century AD".
The Hertfordshire-based group, one of thousands of Templar lodges around the world, is hopeful of a satisfactory outcome. "There have been some unofficial responses over the telephone and we have received certain indications from officials within the church that leaves us hopeful that an apology might be forthcoming," said a member of the order.
The Knights Templar order was formed in 1118 at the end of the First Crusade to protect Christian pilgrims en route to the Holy Land. The organisation built up vast riches from booty it pillaged while fighting in the Holy Lands. Within two centuries the order, which enjoyed the backing of the Holy See and European monarchies, had become powerful enough to defy all but the Pope. By 1307 it had fallen foul of Philip IV of France who needed funds for his war against England. With the blessing of Pope Clement V, the king moved against the Templars on Friday 13 October of that year and had them all arrested for heresy. More than 2,000 Templars were tortured and forced to confess to crimes of homosexuality and sodomy; spitting and trampling on the cross; and devil worshipping. As a result King Philip was able to seize their money and assets and by 1314 when the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar, Jacques de Molay, was burnt at the stake they had ceased to officially exist.
Some of the Templars fled to Scotland, where they are reputed to have helped Robert the Bruce defeat the English at Bannockburn, and under his protection many of their rituals survived. Today many groups from Freemasons to the Cult of the Solar Temple claim the Templars as ancestors and the modern order still includes numerous influential members.
Now, with the 700th anniversary of its persecution approaching, sources within the Knights Templar claim the order wants to improve relations with the Catholic Church and win some sort of acknowledgement for the suffering inflicted.
There were signs last year that the relationship between the Templars and the Vatican was improving when, in a church behind the Colosseum, a Catholic priest presided over the first Knights Templar ceremony in Rome for 522 years.
November 29, 2004
The last crusade of the Templars
By Ruth Gledhill
The knights want a Papal apology nearly 700 years after they were disbanded and hounded into exile
THE VATICAN is giving “serious consideration” to apologising for the persecution that led to the suppression of the Knights Templar.
The suppression, which began on Friday , October 13, 1307, gave Friday the Thirteenth its superstitious legacy.
A Templar Order in Britain that claims to be descended from the original Knights Templar has asked that the Pope should make the apology.
The Templars, based in Hertford, are hoping for an apology by 2007, the 700th anniversary of the start of the persecution, which culminated with the torture and burning at the stake of the Grand Master Jacques de Molay for heresy and the dissolution of the Order by apostolic decree in 1312.
The letter, signed by the Secretary of the Council of Chaplains on behalf of the Grand Master of the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Jesus Christ and the Temple of Solomon Grand Preceptory, with a PO box address in Hertford, formally requests an apology “for the torture and murder of our leadership”, instigated by Pope Clement V.
“We shall witness the 700th anniversary of the persecution of our order on 13th October 2007,” the letter says. “It would be just and fitting for the Vatican to acknowledge our grievance in advance of this day of mourning.”
Apologies have already been made by the Roman Catholic Church for the persecution of Galileo and for the Crusades. The Templars hope that these precedents will make their suit more likely to succeed.
Hertford Templar Tim Acheson, who is descended from the Scottish Acheson family that has established Templar links and whose family lived until recently in Bailey Hall, Hertford, said: “This letter is a serious attempt by a Templar group which traces its roots back to the medieval Order to solicit an apology from the Papacy.”
He added: “The Papacy and the Kingdom of France conspired to destroy the Order for reasons which modern historians judge to be primarily political. Their methods and motives are now universally regarded as brutal, unfair and unjustified.
“The Knights Templar officially ceased to exist in the early 1300s, but the order continued underground. It was a huge organisation and the vast majority of Templars survived the persecution, including most of their leaders, along with much of their treasure and, most importantly, their original values and traditions.”
The Hertford Mercury newspaper has reported newly discovered Templar links with Hertford, including a warren of tunnels beneath the town. At the heart of the maze of tunnels is Hertford Castle, where in 1309 four Templars from Temple Dinsley near Hitchin were imprisoned after their arrest by Edward II, who believed that they were holding a lost treasure. The treasure was never found.
When Subterranea Britannica, a group of amateur archaeologists, expressed an interest in investigating Hertford’s tunnels last month, they received anonymous threats telling them not to.
The Templars captured Jerusalem during the Crusades and were known as “keepers of the Holy Grail”, said to be the cup used at the Last Supper or as the receptacle used by Joseph of Arimathea to catch Christ’s blood as he bled on the Cross, or both.
Interest in the Templars and the Holy Grail is at an unprecedented high after the success of books such as The Da Vinci Code, by Dan Brown, and the earlier Holy Blood Holy Grail, by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln, which claimed that Jesus survived the crucifixion and settled in France.
The Knights Templar were founded by Hugh de Payens, a French knight from the Champagne area of Burgundy, and eight companions in 1118 during the reign of Baldwin II of Jerusalem, when they took a perpetual vow to defend the Christian kingdom. They were assigned quarters next to the Temple. In 1128, they took up the white habit of the Cistercians, adding a red cross. The order knights, sergeants, farmers and chaplains amassed enormous wealth.
In Rome, a Vatican spokesman said that the demand for an apology would be given “serious consideration”. However, Vatican insiders said that the Pope, 84, was under pressure from conservative cardinals to “stop saying sorry” for the errors of the past, after a series of papal apologies for the Crusades, the Inquisition, Christian anti-Semitism and the persecution of scientists and “heretics” such as Galileo.
Lethe said:I always thought they were persecuted because Philip ' the Fair ' of France was in dire financial straits and owed the Templars money, there were other reasons, but that's just a simple reason that I read a long while ago. So it was basically greed, and the charges were trumped up.
Another hypothesis, championed by relic historian Rev David Sox, is that the shroud was the burial sheet of Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Masterof the Knights Templar, burnt at the stake in 1314.
Arthur ASCII said:There's an interesting paragraph at the end of the "New Date for Shroud" article in FT 195:
Another hypothesis, championed by relic historian Rev David Sox, is that the shroud was the burial sheet of Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Masterof the Knights Templar, burnt at the stake in 1314.
<Skeptic alert>
As the image on the shroud clearly depicts a man with long flowing hair and a beard, either the burning at the stake was singularly ineffective, or the hair re-grew post mortem.
</Skeptic alert>
Arthur ASCII said:There's an interesting paragraph at the end of the "New Date for Shroud" article in FT 195:
Another hypothesis, championed by relic historian Rev David Sox, is that the shroud was the burial sheet of Jacques de Molay, the last Grand Masterof the Knights Templar, burnt at the stake in 1314.
<Skeptic alert>
As the image on the shroud clearly depicts a man with long flowing hair and a beard, either the burning at the stake was singularly ineffective, or the hair re-grew post mortem.
</Skeptic alert>
rjm said:I imagine any questing knight would have a substantial reunite of squires/men-at-arms and other hangers on (chefs, wagonmasters etc...) From Europe to the Holy Land is a bloody long way and I wouldn't like to make it alone if I could afford not to.
I'm interested by this 'By their own rule.' business, does he state where this rule is from and back it up?
rjm said:I am still very sceptical. Until I see evidence quoted from an original manuscript or historical study and not some latter-day 'lets play Templars' website I will still have doubts.
sifaka said:rjm said:I am still very sceptical. Until I see evidence quoted from an original manuscript or historical study and not some latter-day 'lets play Templars' website I will still have doubts.
I am also sceptical about the Knights doing archaeology on the Temple Mount (although - to quote Keegan - I would love it, just love it, if it were true). I think I know what you mean about that website, but if you read the italicized introduction, it does seem to be a legitimate academic work they are quoting from. Boydell are AFAIK a reputable publisher. I am still curious as to where Dr Hessayon got Rule 138 from - next week, I should be able to get access to this Upton-Ward translation of the Rule, so can check it myself.
lorddrakul said:Re-reading Barber's The Trial of the Templars at the mo. Closest thing to primary sources I am likely to get to I reckon.
The thing that fascinates me in all this is that the head worshiping evidence seems to have been less widespread than some "revisionists" and "popular" historians would later have us believe.
I still don't buy the arguement. Why wrap the body in an expensive winding cloth, only to unwrap it again for burning?....Tenuous speculation.sifaka said:In fairness, the argument posited by Knight & Lomas in 'The Hiram Key' (Ch. 14) was that de Molay was tortured before being burned - and that this torture comprised crucifixion. They argued that the imprint on the sheet was as a result of some sort of natural process (lactic acids from his blood reacting with frankincense or some such) as a result of the trauma of the torture.