London Bombings: Conspiracies

[Jonfairway]

Just read on the news they were Brittish citizens

Jesus what is this place coming too.

How the hell can you guard against that sort of thing ?

I think religion has a lot to answer for

 

[Degrizzzz]

Preventing them from getting military explosives would be a good start I guess, that and perhaps being really nice to them.

Lets start "Hug an Extremist Week" maybe if they feel a bit more loved they wouldnt be so nasty?

 

[Jonfairway]

oooo hugging people wired with bombs - dunno it seems a bit dangerous to me.


can't we just shoot em ?


seriously tho
How can the autorities combat these types of things ?

ID cards won't
its infeasable to scan everyone boarding a train for explosives etc.
and we certainly cannot guard every building in the capital.

I get the feeling we are stuck with it for the foreseable future thats for sure.

 

[Heckler]

We could start by not invading countries.

 

[Jonfairway]

good plan Heckler


whats the chances ?

 

[Mike_Pratt33]

We could start by not invading countries.

Its too late for that. And I don't mean just Afghanistan & Iraq. Some of these people still hold a grudge for the Crusades.

While I don't doubt that Iraq increased the danger of attack it did not create it. While Britain is rich, powerful and takes an active role in the world it will be a target. We could of course take an isolationist position but this has its own dangers.

 

[Anonymous]

We could start by not invading countries.

Ah Yes. But, those countries should not threaten the "American Way of Life". Then they would not be invaded. By the way, it seems they do this by having lots of oil, being a bit easy to attack, and having a dodgy regime that can be "changed".

 

[BuckeyeJones]

Ah Yes. But, those countries should not threaten the "American Way of Life". Then they would not be invaded. By the way, it seems they do this by having lots of oil, being a bit easy to attack, and having a dodgy regime that can be "changed".

I thought the attack was against the British people? By British people?
And yet it's still my country's fault. just fucking pathetic.
Peace
=^..^=217

 

[Anonymous]

Ah Yes. But, those countries should not threaten the "American Way of Life". Then they would not be invaded. By the way, it seems they do this by having lots of oil, being a bit easy to attack, and having a dodgy regime that can be "changed".

I thought the attack was against the British people? By British people?
And yet it's still my country's fault. just fucking pathetic.
Peace
=^..^=217

Not your country - but your government.

Ours too, Tony Blair supported all of this invasion stuff.

Anyway, quite a few people from Texas seem to disagree with your government as well, take a look at www.bbc.co.uk then look in the "Have Your Say", take a look at what some of the people are saying.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Pakistan may have helped thwart earlier attacks:
www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 652#558652

Iranian radio has blamed Mossad:
www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 654#558654

And TB is quick to start pushing through new laws:

Blair seeks to tackle extremism

Prime Minister Tony Blair has called for new laws to tackle extremism and a worldwide drive to address the "evil" ideology behind the London bombings.

Mr Blair said there would be "profound shock and anxiety" after the news the suspected suicide bombers were British.

Talks are to begin on bringing in new laws covering preparations for attacks and to make it easier to deport people trying to "incite hatred", he told MPs.

The "moderate and true voice of Islam" had to be mobilised, he said.

Law talks

Police are now focusing on finding those who masterminded the suspected suicide attacks that killed at least 52 people in London last Thursday.

They now believe they have identified the fourth of the bombers, although have yet to release any names.

The uncle of one of the suspected London suicide bombers said his family had been "left shattered" by the news.

Bashir Ahmed, 65, said the family of Shehzad Tanweer, who recently studied religion in Pakistan, could not accept he was capable of the bombings.

BLAIR'S FOUR-POINT PLAN

New laws as planned against incitement and instigation of terrorism
New measures to keep people inciting hatred out of the UK, or making it more easily to deport them
Help for the Muslim community to counter the "evil" interpretation of their faith
International effort to mobilise the "moderate and true voice of Islam"

At prime minister's questions, Mr Blair said there was "a need and a willingness to act".

Consultations would begin in the next couple of weeks over possible new anti-terror legislation, due to be published this autumn, he said.

The laws would focus on measures the police and security services believed necessary to "combat the incitement and the instigation of terrorism as well as the acts of terrorism themselves".

"We will look urgently at how we strengthen the procedures to exclude people from entering the UK who may incite hatred or act contrary to the public good and at how we deport such people if they come here more easily," he continued.

Mr Blair said security measures alone would not deal with the problem.

"This is not an isolated criminal act we are dealing with," he said.

"It is an extreme and evil ideology whose roots lie in a perverted and poisonous misinterpretation of the religion of Islam."

BOMB MANHUNT

London: Forensic work ongoing at blast sites
Leeds area: Six houses searched, controlled explosion at one, one arrest made
Luton: Controlled explosion after car find near station

Mr Blair met Muslim MPs on Wednesday morning to discuss how to tackle "this evil within the Muslim community".

"In the end, this can only be taken on and defeated by the community itself," he said.

The prime minister condemned any attacks on British Muslims, saying the vast majority were decent and law abiding.

There had to be international efforts to mobilise the true Muslim faith, he said.

Conservative leader Michael Howard joined Mr Blair in sending sympathy to the families of the bomb victims and in praising the police and security services.

Mr Howard said: "It will take us a long time to come to terms with the fact that these attacks appear to have been committed by those who were born and brought up in our midst."

He said anybody who nurtured resentment of British Muslims was the "enemy of all of us because they would be behaving in the way that terrorists want them to".

HAVE YOUR SAY

How, precisely, would ID cards have prevented this?
Jason, Portsmouth, UK

Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy said everyone shared "a sense of national dismay" on hearing the bombers were British.

"It is incumbent upon all of us to keep stressing the fact that the vast majority of British Muslims totally condemn the bombings," he said.

Shahid Malik, whose Dewsbury constituency was the scene of police raids in the bombing investigation, said the Muslim community faced a "massive wake-up call".

Mr Malik, one of the Muslim MPs who met the prime minister on Wednesday, added: "The challenge is straightforward - that those voices that we have tolerated will no longer be tolerated."

--------------------
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/u ... 678821.stm

Published: 2005/07/13 13:07:34 GMT

© BBC MMV

Now again I'd have thought we already had plenty of laws to cover this kind of thing - it can't currently be legal to plan to blow somewhere up and it is certainly illegal to incite hatred.

 

[uair01]

Just read on the news they were Brittish citizens, Jesus what is this place coming too.

Has anyone thought that this might not be organized Muslim terror at all?
That it simply might have been a "Columbine High School" attack with a Muslim wrapping around it?

The Columbine kids did this the American way, lots of guns.

Maybe these were just disenchanted Muslim kids who used the Muslim "look and feel" to commit an attention drawing suicide act. Probly they were influenced by Muslim extremist thought, but it may have not been the root cause ...

 

[Quake42]

Has anyone thought that this might not be organized Muslim terror at all?
That it simply might have been a "Columbine High School" attack with a Muslim wrapping around it?

The Columbine kids did this the American way, lots of guns.

Maybe these were just disenchanted Muslim kids who used the Muslim "look and feel" to commit an attention drawing suicide act. Probly they were influenced by Muslim extremist thought, but it may have not been the root cause ...

Fascinating idea. The only thing is that so far the explosives used seem to be military grade so these guys must have had access to black market supplies - I don't think the bombs were the kind of thing you could knock up in a bedroom with a chemistry set and some fertiliser.

I do think though that some of these kids flirt with extremism because it's seen as cool and rebellious, in the same way as others might take drugs or listen to Slipknot, rather than any sort of in depth dedication to the cause. Rather like middle class students were attracted to Baader Meinhof type groups in the 70s.

Blowing yourself and dozens of others up though would seem to be in a rather different league...

 

[Mal_Adjusted]

Timetable of terror

greets

compare and contrast: last weeks london bombings and these:

Timetable of terror

In April 1999 Londoners were terrorised by three nailbomb attacks in two weeks. The third explosion - in Soho - left three people dead and many more maimed. This is how events unfolded:


Just before 1730 BST a nail bomb explodes in Brixton, injuring 39 people, some seriously. Police say there was no warning.

Home Secretary Jack Straw describes the incident as "an outrageous and mindless act".



Victims, including two children and a police officer, are wounded by flying shrapnel and shards of glass. Some are left with nails embedded in their bodies. Among the victims is a 23-month-old boy who has 2cm of a nail in his brain. Surgeons at Great Ormond Street Hospital carefully remove the nail during a one-and-a-half-hour operation.

19 April A man purporting to be from right-wing terror group Combat 18 claims it was behind the bombing. Police receive an anonymous call from a telephone box in Eltham, south-east London - close to where black student Stephen Lawrence was murdered by racist thugs in April 1993. Scotland Yard detectives say they cannot rule out the call being a hoax.

23 April Three more extreme right-wing racist groups claimed they carried out the Brixton attack, Scotland Yard reveals. Police decline to reveal their identity.


Police stage a reconstruction of the Brixton attack to encourage more witnesses to come forward.


Nailbomb campaign
Brixton 17.04.99
39 injured

Brick Lane 24.04.99
6 injured

Soho 30.04.99
3 dead, 65 injured
But soon afterwards, shortly before 1800 BST, six people are injured and buildings damaged by a second nail bomb, which explodes near Brick Lane, Shoreditch, in east London, the centre of the capital's Bangladeshi community.

The device explodes inside a red Ford Sierra. A motorist who discovered the device puts it in the boot of his car and is attempting to drive to a police station when it goes off.

Police link the incidents and say they are treating them as racist attacks.

Two hours after the attack, a 999 call is made by someone purporting to be from Combat 18 claiming to be behind the bomb.

Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking in Washington, says: "These things are outrageous and we will not tolerate them.

"We will make every effort to find out those responsible and bring them to justice."

25 April Security is stepped up around the country as police warn that the bombings could spread outside the capital.


David Copeland caught on Brixton CCTV footage
CCTV: Picture splashed across newspapers
Police chiefs in Birmingham, Luton, Bradford, Manchester, Leicester, Liverpool, Leeds, Nottingham, Cardiff, Bristol and Glasgow are put on alert for attacks in their areas.

Scotland Yard Assistant Commissioner David Veness warns: "We cannot rule out that other attacks might take place outside the London area in places which have the same characteristics as Brixton and Brick Lane."

It also emerges that detectives are examining threatening letters to prominent black and Asian politicians by a group calling itself The White Wolves - believed to be a splinter group of Combat 18.

27 April Home Secretary Jack Straw visits the scene of the Brick Lane bombing and insists: "There is no future in evil and race hatred."

29 April Detectives issue a video image of a white man in his 20s they believe to be the prime suspect in the Brixton bombing.

Assistant Commissioner David Veness says it is the "number one priority" to trace the man captured by video cameras. The man, in a white cap, is spotted wandering around the crowded streets 90 minutes before the explosion.


Following public response to the video footage, police arrest a man in connection with the bombings and question him. He is later released on police bail. Officers say the search for the man on the video footage continues and more arrests can be expected.

Fearing further Saturday afternoon shopping attacks, police around Britain step up security, especially in areas of ethnic minority concentration.

At 6.37pm a device explodes in the Admiral Duncan pub in Old Compton Street, centre of London's gay community and much West End nightlife. Three people die and 65 are injured.

1 May Police raid a house in Cove, Hampshire, and arrest a man for questioning. They seize equipment "that could be used to make a bombs" including explosive materials.

2 May Police charge engineer David Copeland, 22, with murder and three counts of causing an explosion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/780069.stm

and the bnp want to make political capital out of the most recent bombings!!

mal

 

[Stormkhan]

The BNP will make capital out of any misfortune or disaster ... as long as it promotes their nasty agenda!

 

[Anonymous]

Ah Yes. But, those countries should not threaten the "American Way of Life". Then they would not be invaded. By the way, it seems they do this by having lots of oil, being a bit easy to attack, and having a dodgy regime that can be "changed".

I thought the attack was against the British people? By British people?
And yet it's still my country's fault. just fucking pathetic.
Peace
=^..^=217

I apologise for my comment, it was said mainly in jest , but I can see how it can cause offense to our American cousins.

 

[lopaka]

Has anyone thought that this might not be organized Muslim terror at all?
That it simply might have been a "Columbine High School" attack with a Muslim wrapping around it?

The Columbine kids did this the American way, lots of guns.

Maybe these were just disenchanted Muslim kids who used the Muslim "look and feel" to commit an attention drawing suicide act. Probly they were influenced by Muslim extremist thought, but it may have not been the root cause ...

Fascinating idea. The only thing is that so far the explosives used seem to be military grade so these guys must have had access to black market supplies - I don't think the bombs were the kind of thing you could knock up in a bedroom with a chemistry set and some fertiliser.

I do think though that some of these kids flirt with extremism because it's seen as cool and rebellious, in the same way as others might take drugs or listen to Slipknot, rather than any sort of in depth dedication to the cause. Rather like middle class students were attracted to Baader Meinhof type groups in the 70s.

Blowing yourself and dozens of others up though would seem to be in a rather different league...

Leaving aside for the moment the important caveat about the 'military grade' explosives, though, it really is just part of a continuum, isn't it? Just further along an (extremist) path. When the three bombmakers died in a Greenwhich Village townhouse explosion in 1970 these were very privleged young people from some of the USA's best universities. They were, I believe the story finally came out, working on an 'anti-personel device' (ie dynamite studded with roofing nails) that was to be planted at an officer's dance at Ft. Dix, New Jersey...presumably then not just aimed at the *guilty* but whoever happened to be there for the dance that night. Unbelievable that these were the same people who a few years earlier were on their high school Honor Roll and collected stamps as a hobby, but it happened, given the right (wrong) lethal mix of personality, milleu and circumstances.

I'm sure none of them expected to end up in that place the first time they decided to attend an anti-Vietnam War rally (which is of course neither extremist or unlawful.) Or even, jumping a few steps further along, the first time they cheered when someone burned down an unoccupied Army recruiting center...

WRT to the actual bombs in this case, both the material and the mechanisms, I'm sure the forensics people are already all over this, but is it as hard to DIY as most of us imagine? I mean, I'm genuinely asking here. For me it would probably be somewhat like trying to build a rocketship to the moon, I have neither the contacts or the skills (leaving aside the desire, of which I obviously have zero) to do such a thing, but I'd imagine that has a lot more to do with me and my specific circumstances than the inherent difficulty of it. It's admittedly a lot simpler, or would seem to be, but if someone asked me to score them some heroin, prepare it (?) and inject it into their arm, I'd be pretty much at loss. That doesn't make me assume that there aren't a million people in this country who could do all this with one phone call if they were asked.

 

[uair01]

WRT to the actual bombs in this case, both the material and the mechanisms, I'm sure the forensics people are already all over this, but is it as hard to DIY as most of us imagine?

A few weeks ago the (excellent) german computer magazine c't had a whole issue around "remotely controlling your PC". As one of the options was a detailed instruction how to re-use an old prepaid GSM phone so you could switch your home PC on and off, by calling it on the phone. It looked simple enough ... need I say more

And IIRC most of the explosives that the Columbine team planted in the building didn't work at all. They had tried to make "fuel/air" type explosives (make a fine mist of gasoline and light it - mythbusters type stuff ...)

 

[nambo2]

Just read on the news they were Brittish citizens

Jesus what is this place coming too.

How the hell can you guard against that sort of thing ?

I think religion has a lot to answer for

Hey Techybloke, your a guy who digs for the truth and doesnt just belive the most palitable option, the ones governments want to string us along with, but your quote makes me think allthough you havnt fallen for the 911/ world terror bullshit, they are still getting to you further up the chain of lies and spin.
Yes, religion has got a lot to answer for, (generally because its manmade state religion),the Bible book of Revelations says its responsible for all the blood spilt on the Earth.
Non-the-less, do some research on the aims and goals of the Illuminati and you will see they want all religion ended, so they can be worshipped in Gods place, just like Nimrod.
Revelation also says Governments will turn on and destroy religion, they will be able to achieve this when religion is so discredited that most people dont want it.

Mind you get, and are ready for the whole picture.

 

[Stormkhan]

It can be said that any religion (that is, the reliance of the creation and control of a supernatural entity) can inspire extremist and violent reaction to the (ordinary) world it attempts to conrol.

Everyone wants to think they've been given the 'inside story'. whether it's the charismatic leader or the followers who've discovered the 'true way'. Being given the 'inside story' is a way of some terrorist to turn an ordinary bloke into a killer.

So sad, pointless and wrong!

 

[Jonfairway]

Nambo Wrote

Hey Techybloke, your a guy who digs for the truth and doesnt just belive the most palitable option, the ones governments want to string us along with, but your quote makes me think allthough you havnt fallen for the 911/ world terror bullshit, they are still getting to you further up the chain of lies and spin.
Yes, religion has got a lot to answer for, (generally because its manmade state religion),the Bible book of Revelations says its responsible for all the blood spilt on the Earth.
Non-the-less, do some research on the aims and goals of the Illuminati and you will see they want all religion ended, so they can be worshipped in Gods place, just like Nimrod.
Revelation also says Governments will turn on and destroy religion, they will be able to achieve this when religion is so discredited that most people dont want it.

Thanks Nambo I have been looking into NWO for quite a while its difficult to pin the tail on the donkey to say the least.

Yep I see where your coming from on the religion side of things just to set your mind at rest I am a Pagan - Most people I think thought I was an atheist but the closest thing I can find to my beleifs would by Pagan.

I think what is actually out there so to speak is a long way from being discovered properly by our modern scientists - Ive seen things that would make you wonder if you were a nutter to say least.

Escargot wants me to write about Demons and the like but I have a strong feeling about what is happening in the world at the moment.

This may sound daft but something big is brewing - I don't think I am on my own thinking this either.

On the plans of the NWO - yes making the Islam christian war something that can't be avoided is high on their list.

But also is the police state and human control/Slavery

Not the kind of slavery we know from history.

Hell on Earth ? something similar I would guess but more techy control.

no Demons with pitch forks

not as yet anyway

 

[Heckler]

This isn't about religion anyway, very little when it comes down to it actually is. Mostly it's about very human issues like greed and xenophobia and the lust for power, it just hides in the shadow of religion because the umbrella of religion makes it 'right' and can convince people to commit acts that they would in all normal respects they would find abhorrent. It's amazing what you can convice people to do if they believe they are in the 'right'.

Neither is it about the Illuminati or the NWO or fairies or aliens or any other vacuous explanation to hide the fact that people are quite capable of hating one another without some other agency guiding things behind the scenes.

 

[Jonfairway]

Good Morning heckler

hope you slept well.

So evil men - greedy men were to blame for the bombings ?

no one pulled their strings

The curruption of the true Islam religion is not happening ?

I agree religion is not to blame in itself and that evil men exist.

But its the bible and the Koran that are being currupted to influence these people to do these attrocities.

Indoctrination and brainwashing are my best guesses to how these people are being driven to these extremes.

 

[Jerry_B]

I think that we shouldn't lose sight of the way these events are political acts also. IMHO that's the most important aspect. Whilst it could be easy to get sidetracked into notions of evil and religion, essentially such attacks are an extension of politics by other means. It's very important not to underestimate that. If politicians are allowed to start defining such attacks in terms of religion and morality, or be allowed by public opinion to do so, then that would sidetrack the root causes of why these things happen and wouldn't adress ways of dealing with the actual issues.

 

[Jerry_B]

Indoctrination and brainwashing are my best guesses to how these people are being driven to these extremes.

Well, that's the easy option for defining how these things occur - however, it relies to much on the notion that people who carry out such acts haven't done so from their own volition and will. Okay, in order to do that their world view is different from mine or yours, but that doesn't mean that they've been brainwashed. It may make some people sleep easier at night that such people aren't of their own minds, but this is not the case.

 

[Jonfairway]

Good post Jerry

The issues are which political bodies are behind these bombings and why ?

I ask you as a human being could someone convince you to wear a bomb and blow yourself up in this way ?

 

[Anonymous]

... Mostly it's about very human issues like greed and xenophobia and the lust for power, it just hides in the shadow of religion because the umbrella of religion makes it 'right' and can convince people to commit acts that they would in all normal respects they would find abhorrent. It's amazing what you can convice people to do if they believe they are in the 'right'.

...

We've certainly been given the concept of religion to play with. We've even been given the possibility of two religions: one 'Good (ours) and one 'Bad (theirs).

This bringing people back to Jee-ee-Zuss! through fear of the alternative, seems to be a policy decison of the NeoConservatives in cahoots with the Revivalist Rigfht:

...

The neoconservatives are not just theorists and academics, they have been actively promoting their views within popular political culture, in magazines and journals, think-tanks and centers for policy development. They have been successful in creating a climate of opinion conducive to the emergence of such extremist activities as radio talk shows reaching millions of Americans. And most important they have had tremendous influence in moving both Republican and Democratic politicians in a conservative direction and have been able to insert themselves into key policy positions of the government.

Neoconservatism would not have been able to do all this by itself; it represents a fairly small group of intellectuals. One of the key elements in its diagnoses of the problems in American society is its belief that the American people need more religious faith. Ready and available to serve this need was Revivalist Theology that in our time is known as the religious right. Neoconservatism has had such stunning political successes over the last three decades because of the rise of the religious right. And both these movements have been funded by those most likely to benefit from these political ideas. In what follows we will discuss both of these related phenomena.

...


Habermas [The New Conservatives], suggests that Daniel Bell’s book, The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism, is helpful to examine in relation to neoconservatism. Bell says that while capitalism requires within itself able and motivated workers, it creates people only interested in maximizing their own pleasure and thus undercuts the whole Protestant ethic which is necessary to maintain good workers. “Bell explains the self-destructive pattern of this development in terms of a split between culture and society. He analyzes the tension between a modern society and a modernist culture that contributes to the destruction of the moral bases of rationalized society. In both cases modernity depends on the process of secularization; but what is good for secularized society, i.e., capitalist modernization, is catastrophic for culture, since a culture rendered profane brings subversive attitudes to the fore; in any case it contrasts with the religiously anchored willingness to achieve and obey on which an efficient economy and a rational state administration are functionally dependent.” (p. 27-28)

Furthermore, capitalism needs this pleasure-seeking individual: “Without the hedonism stimulated by mass consumption, the very structure of the business enterprise would collapse.” (p. 28)

When I sat down in the 1980s to read books on economic theory I was myself astounded at the degree to which neo-classical economic theory is grounded on the idea of the “maximizing man”, the idea that human beings always want to maximize their pleasure and minimize their pain. It was such a narrow, reductionist view of the human being. The ultimate image of such a human being is the drug user, again and again getting the pleasure of a high through sticking the needle in his veins. Theology was viewed by the economists as not having to do with reality, but the unreality of their concept of the human being seemed obvious to me. Something of that issue is the concern of the neoconservatives.

But their analysis led them not to question the economic theory, not at all. It led them to promote religion and also, nationalism. “Only the renewal of a religious consciousness, the overcoming of a culture that has become profane, can restore the ethical bases of a secularized society.” (p. 29) Religion was necessary to keep the workers working, to keep citizens obeying their government, to keep everyone committed to overcoming the terrible Communist menace, articulated by Ronald Reagan, of course, as the “evil empire”.

...

http://www.pubtheo.com/page.asp?pid=1219

 

[Mal_Adjusted]

greets

AFAIK - as things stand this morning there hasn't been an authenticated press release / video / statement from the bombers (or the people associated with them) saying why they carried out the attacks.

seems little dispute as to who did it, but we're waiting for some proper insight into why.

also whilst there's lots of talk about conspiracies, we're still in the dark about whether this group of 4 were an autonomous group or part of a much wider network.

still more to discover about where they all met (did they meet regularly - one would normally suspect they did just to build trust between themselves), how frequently and who else was there.

also source of their (if it's true) military explosives - not normally found in the Leeds / Dewsbury area i believe.

so until some explanation from the perps is forthcoming it's going to be difficult to understand just how much this was a "religion" thing and how much "politics".

also we need to know if anyone was "pulling the strings" - ie if anyone was inciting them, psyching them up, teliing them when and where etc.

mal

 

[Jonfairway]

also source of their (if it's true) military explosives - not normally found in the Leeds / Dewsbury area i believe.

Sky this morning and the BBC last night are now saying commercial explosives !!!

 

[Jerry_B]

I ask you as a human being could someone convince you to wear a bomb and blow yourself up in this way ?

No, because I'm a pacifist. But also don't assume that the people that carried out these attacks had been convinced by someone else to do so. They may have chosen to do so for themselves, after forming their own ideas. At the moment it seems too much is being made of how these men have been 'controlled' to carry out the attacks. There's nothing to say that they didn't have the idea themselves and then sought out those who could help them do it.

 

[Jonfairway]

Well, that's the easy option for defining how these things occur - however, it relies to much on the notion that people who carry out such acts haven't done so from their own volition and will. Okay, in order to do that their world view is different from mine or yours, but that doesn't mean that they've been brainwashed. It may make some people sleep easier at night that such people aren't of their own minds, but this is not the case.

yep you could be right.

who knows what goes on in a persons mind !