ChrisBoardman said:I don't think we will ever get proof, just more theories.
I've just read all of it, as available on that web page.Caveat: I haven't read the full work.
A curiosity here:
The Psychic Life of George Herbert Leigh Mallory
By Ray Eugene Harkleroad, Junior
Lifelong secret of Everest pioneer: I discovered Mallory's body in 1936
Tony Smythe knew he might find secrets when he came to write a book about his father, the 1930s Everest pioneer Frank Smythe. But he hadn't anticipated they might include Frank's discovery of George Mallory's body in 1936. "I found it in the back of a diary," Smythe says. "He'd written out a sequence of letters he'd sent, so he would have a copy." ...
The crucial letter was addressed to Edward Norton, leader of the 1924 expedition when Mallory and Irvine disappeared, apparently going for the summit. An ice axe, assumed to belong to Irvine, had been discovered in 1933 by the fourth British expedition to the mountain. It was lying on rock, as though placed there, at 27,760ft, the only trace of either man above their last camp. Smythe ... felt sure it marked the scene of an accident and told Norton why. "I was scanning the face from base camp through a high-powered telescope last year," his letter read, "when I saw something queer in a gully below the scree shelf. Of course it was a long way away and very small, but I've a six/six eyesight and do not believe it was a rock. This object was at precisely the point where Mallory and Irvine would have fallen had they rolled on over the scree slopes."
... "It's not to be written about," Smythe told Norton, "as the press would make an unpleasant sensation." ...
... Sherpa is a job description title but is also a Nepalese caste name/surname; ie. one can be a Sherpa but not named Sherpa and vice-versa. ...
Norgay was originally called "Namgyal Wangdi", but as a child his name was changed on the advice of the head lama and founder of Rongbuk Monastery, Ngawang Tenzin Norbu. "Tenzing Norgay" translates as "wealthy-fortunate-follower-of-religion". His father, a yak herder, was Ghang La Mingma (d. 1949), and his mother was Dokmo Kinzom (who lived to see him climb Everest); he was the 11th of 13 children, most of whom died young.
I'm sure I'd seen this story before (about Mallory's body being discovered by Smythe) probably either here, or in FT itself.I can't find any reference to this story having been noted before ...
I'm sure I'd seen this story before (about Mallory's body being discovered by Smythe) probably either here, or in FT itself.
How pervasive might thar "unindexed effect" be? Or does it (frustratingly) form a Rumsfeldian unknown unknown?It rang a bell with me, too, but I couldn't locate any mention of it here on the forum.
How pervasive might thar "unindexed effect" be? Or does it (frustratingly) form a Rumsfeldian unknown unknown?
How pervasive might thar "unindexed effect" be? Or does it (frustratingly) form a Rumsfeldian unknown unknown?
Both the job description / title and the formally documented surname usages were projected onto the Sherpa people by outsiders.
'Sherpa' is the name of the ethnic group. This ethnic group was traditionally very tightly integrated. The group consists of 18 family clans, each of which has a clan name.
However, the Sherpa people did not use their clan names in personal identification owing to the group being small and closely interlinked enough that everybody knew which clan a particular individual belonged to. In other words, the Sherpa people didn't bother with surnames in the Western sense.
If pressed to specify a surname equivalent, Sherpas would conventionally use 'Sherpa' rather than their clan name. In other words, 'Sherpa' was the preferred affiliation reflected in a virtual surname presumed and recorded by others / outsiders rather than Sherpas themselves.
Owing to their mountaineering abilities, outsiders (especially Western mountaineers) began using the term 'Sherpa' in the colloquial sense of a mountain guide or porter.
Circa 1960 Nepal conducted a census. The census format required specification of given name(s) and surnames. The Sherpa population either demurred from specifying a surname or followed the convention of using 'Sherpa'. Whether by personal attestation or census-takers' frustrated default, 'Sherpa' was documented as the surname for most of the group.
As such, 'Tenzing Norgay' is a pair of given names, and no clan / surname is contained therein. As it happens, this wasn't even Tenzing's original birth name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenzing_Norgay
Being called 'Sherpa Tenzing' wasn't a condescending 'Guide Tenzing' nickname akin to (e.g.) 'Mechanic Joe'. It was more like 'Tenzing of the Sherpa People', and accurately reflects the manner in which he would have given a surname equivalent in accordance with prevailing custom.
See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherpa_people
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=608715
https://andyoneverest.weebly.com/blog/sherpa-whats-in-a-name
Yep, me too.Do we want them solved? I do.
Climbing Everest – to try to solve its greatest mystery
Were Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay really the first to conquer the world’s highest peak? We searched for a camera that could rewrite history. ...
I had long known the theory that Mallory and Irvine might have been the first to scale Everest. But I had caught the fever to find Irvine only two years before, after attending a lecture by my friend Thom Pollard, an Everest veteran who lives a few miles from my home in the White Mountains of northern New Hampshire. He called me a few days later.
“You don’t think you could actually find him, do you?” I asked.
He chuckled. “What if I had a critical piece of information that no one else has?”
“Like what?” I shot back.
He paused for a few seconds. “Like the exact location of the body.” ...
I think they summited. The often cited reasons - snow goggles in pocket and wife's photo, which he said he'd leave on summit, not found on the body - although other documents were. Although many authorities think they got close but turned back before the final push. This story has fascinated me for years, have to say.
Harsh.If you didn't make it down you didn't conquer Everest.
Harsh.
If you didn't make it down you didn't conquer Everest.
If you didn't make it down you didn't conquer Everest.
No, absolutely - I guess you can summit without "conquering"...If you didn't make it down you didn't conquer Everest.
Debatable!
One of the longest cycle trips I did was with a mate to Winchester, around 5 years ago.
Around 38 miles, but a fair bit of it was off-road, so pretty exhausting stuff.
After stopping to eat and a few beers, we cheated and decided to get the train back.
Still think that counts as cycling to Winchester though!
On a far more intrepid scale than my humble exertions, I would argue that Captain Scott and his team made it to the South Pole, even though they died trying to get home.
No, absolutely - I guess you can summit without "conquering"...